Deists: Please explain why you are a deist and what attributes you put on god.

[FreedByte]

I am very curious about deism. I call myself an agnostic atheist because:

agnostic - I don't believe the existence or nonexistence of god can be determined
atheist - I don't believe in the god of any religion

So my question about deism is not "why should I not be an atheist?" but "why should I not be agnostic?"

Why should I believe that the existence of a creator can be determined through reason?

And if I should believe that, how then do you attribute to god the characteristics that you do?

 

[Gottservant]

God is basically the personification of the magnetic force.

This completes the basic set of forces that create the world and everything else and are personified in turn by various personalities that also deserve attention (for their own reasons, at various times during the course of humanity - of which Christ is One).

The reason God is worshipped and not simply given attention, is in the context I have given because the personification of magnetism is one sense the most difficult (achievement) and in another sense the most powerful (and therefore combined the most fruitful way of gaining from worship - due to what specifically God does for worship with His magnetism).

It's not quantifiable, because the dualism of Creation hides the mechanism of creation at the same time that phenomenon related to it are revealed (quantum uncertainty for example (thus requiring faith)).

Hope that helps (please don't question the veracity of my interpretation unless you are genuine, I really don't have time for people who question what I can accept so easily - when they are faking it (not saying you are, just saying)).

 

[FreedByte]

of which Christ is One

God is worshipped

are you sure you're a deist? Both of the things quoted above are aspects of theism, and against deism.

 

[Gottservant]

I don't see a distinction between the two, unless the person I'm talking with can't conceive (or allow themself to conceive) of anything greater than the world (and its respective forces).

 

[FreedByte]

I don't see a distinction between the two, unless the person I'm talking with can't conceive (or allow themself to conceive) of anything greater than the world (and its respective forces).

Theism and deism are fundamentally opposed.

Theism: belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in one god as creator of the universe, intervening in it and sustaining a personal relation to his creatures.

Deism: belief in the existence of a God on the evidence of reason and nature only, with rejection of supernatural revelation (distinguished from theism); belief in a God who created the world but has since remained indifferent to it.

 

[Tree of Life]

Unfortunately there aren't many deists who post on this forum so I'm not sure that you'll find what you're looking for. If I may answer from my perspective...

It seems to me that deism, atheism, and agnosticism are practically indistinguishable from one another. There is no reason to be a deist. Why bother investigating or believing in a being with which we can never interact and has no consequence on our lives? In my opinion you have absolutely nothing to gain from moving from atheism to deism.

 

[FreedByte]

Unfortunately there aren't many deists who post on this forum so I'm not sure that you'll find what you're looking for. If I may answer from my perspective...

Maybe not this subforum but I have seen plenty thoughout CF.

It seems to me that deism, atheism, and agnosticism are practically indistinguishable from one another.

Not at all.

For one thing, agnosticism isn't even a belief statement. Agnosticism asserts that the existence of god is unknowable. Atheism is the belief that there is no "god". Deism is the believe that there is a god and that god's existence can be determined by reason.

There is no reason to be a deist.

That's an arrogant thing to say.

Why bother investigating or believing in a being with which we can never interact and has no consequence on our lives?

Because we want to know what's true?

In my opinion you have absolutely nothing to gain from moving from atheism to deism.

Maybe for you religion is about personal gain, but for me it's about finding truth.

 

[Tree of Life]

Not at all.

For one thing, agnosticism isn't even a belief statement. Agnosticism asserts that the existence of god is unknowable. Atheism is the belief that there is no "god". Deism is the believe that there is a god and that god's existence can be determined by reason.

They are theoretically distinguishable, no doubt. But practically I don't see the difference. Atheism, agnosticism, and deism have the same practical applications.

That's an arrogant thing to say.

Supply a reason to be a deist and I'll retract my statement.

Because we want to know what's true?

Why do you want to know what's true? It must be because truth has some use, yes?

Maybe for you religion is about personal gain, but for me it's about finding truth.

I don't separate the two. Truth is valuable because it can lead to wisdom. Irrelevant truth is not interesting or important.

 

[FreedByte]

They are theoretically distinguishable, no doubt. But practically I don't see the difference. Atheism, agnosticism, and deism have the same practical applications.

Define practical applications

Supply a reason to be a deist and I'll retract my statement.

Person A determines using reason alone that there is a god.
Person A becomes a deist because they want to believe what is true.

If you would, please supply a reason to be a christian.

Why do you want to know what's true? It must be because truth has some use, yes?

Not necessarily

I don't separate the two. Truth is valuable because it can lead to wisdom. Irrelevant truth is not interesting or important.

How is truth in deism any more irrelevant than truth in christianity?

and irrelevant with respect to what?

 

[Tree of Life]

Define practical applications

Practical applications are how I ought to use those beliefs. What does atheism tell me to do? Is it significantly different from agnosticism or deism? I don't think so. All three views amount to: "God is irrelevant, therefore do something else". Practically indistinguishable.

Person A determines using reason alone that there is a god.
Person A becomes a deist because they want to believe what is true.

This is a description of deism, not a reason to be a deist.

If you would, please supply a reason to be a christian.

Jesus Christ rose from the dead.

Not necessarily

Then why are you interested in truth? What are you going to do with it when you find it?

How is truth in deism any more irrelevant than truth in christianity?

and irrelevant with respect to what?

Deism basically teaches that God exists but his existence is not relevant. He's not involved in the world. Christianity teaches that God's existence is relevant to all of life because he is involved in everything.

 

[Davian]

Unfortunately there aren't many deists who post on this forum so I'm not sure that you'll find what you're looking for. If I may answer from my perspective...

It seems to me that deism, atheism, and agnosticism are practically indistinguishable from one another. There is no reason to be a deist. Why bother investigating or believing in a being with which we can never interact and has no consequence on our lives? In my opinion you have absolutely nothing to gain from moving from atheism to deism.

Having contemplated deism in the several minutes during my transition from a complete apatheist to an ignostic apatheist, I would say that deism may serve as a rationalization for why things are the way they are (universal constants, etc), even if you hold no belief that the cosmos cares about you in any way.

A god-of-the-gaps that doesn't care.

 

[FreedByte]

Practical applications are how I ought to use those beliefs. What does atheism tell me to do? Is it significantly different from agnosticism or deism? I don't think so. All three views amount to: "God is irrelevant, therefore do something else". Practically indistinguishable.

Yes, unlike atheists, deists encourage spirituality and some even pray prayers of thanks.

This is a description of deism, not a reason to be a deist.

A reason to be a deist is that you believe in deism. I don't see what's so complicated about that.

Jesus Christ rose from the dead.

That's not a fact, try again please.

Then why are you interested in truth? What are you going to do with it when you find it?

"We have the privilege of being in this universe for a few decades and during that time it's an enormous privilege to able to understand something about the universe in which we live, why we are here, why we were ever born, where we come from and I think that is such a wonderful thing to be able to do ..." - Richard Dawkins

Deism basically teaches that God exists but his existence is not relevant. He's not involved in the world.

So what? I value truth for its own sake.

Christianity teaches that God's existence is relevant to all of life because he is involved in everything.

You have to prove that god is involved in everything first. Deism recognizes that there is no evidence for that.

 

[Colter]

I am very curious about deism. I call myself an agnostic atheist because:

agnostic - I don't believe the existence or nonexistence of god can be determined
atheist - I don't believe in the god of any religion

So my question about deism is not "why should I not be an atheist?" but "why should I not be agnostic?"

Why should I believe that the existence of a creator can be determined through reason?

And if I should believe that, how then do you attribute to god the characteristics that you do?

Human things must first be known in order to be loved, divine things must be loved in order to be known. The path to faith is not about reason, it's about relationship; the child of God sincerely desires to know God.

So to answer your questions, if you have not at this point naturally begun your quest for God in your heart then it's unlikely that you will unless and until you become sufficiently dissatisfied with yourself.

"He who saves his own life will loose it, but he who gives it up shall find it."

 

[FreedByte]

The path to faith is not about reason

Why should it be about anything else?

it's about relationship

Prove it, please.

So to answer your questions, if you have not at this point naturally begun your quest for God in your heart

I used to be a christian.

then it's unlikely that you will unless and until you become sufficiently dissatisfied with yourself.

That's a presumptuous thing to say.

 

[Colter]

Why should it be about anything else?




Prove it, please.



I used to be a christian.



That's a presumptuous thing to say.

It's something one has to do to experience in order to find the proof. Argumentative atheist types use the inability for the religious to prove consciousness of spiritual realities as a hiding place, a cop out.

Deism is basically a humanist plagiarism, it derives it's values from the influence of the spirit while ignoring spiritual realities.

 

[FreedByte]

It's something one has to do to experience in order to find the proof.

That's not proof, that's an anecdote.

 

[Tree of Life]

Yes, unlike atheists, deists encourage spirituality and some even pray prayers of thanks.

This is a deism that I am unfamiliar with. In that case it is practically different from atheism and agnosticism.

A reason to be a deist is that you believe in deism. I don't see what's so complicated about that.

What you've said is a tautology. Basically "a reason to believe in deism is that you believe in deism." You're still not providing a reason to believe.

That's not a fact, try again please.

Whether or not it's a fact is open to debate. Regardless, it's still a reason for belief.

"We have the privilege of being in this universe for a few decades and during that time it's an enormous privilege to able to understand something about the universe in which we live, why we are here, why we were ever born, where we come from and I think that is such a wonderful thing to be able to do ..." - Richard Dawkins

So it is pleasurable to understand truth?

So what? I value truth for its own sake.

I don't even know what this could possibly mean.

You have to prove that god is involved in everything first. Deism recognizes that there is no evidence for that.

If I want to persuade you to adopt my beliefs then I need to prove them, or at least make some attempt at it. But I needn't prove them in order to be practically affected by them. My point was that Christianity, if believed, is incredibly relevant. It will change your life if you believe it. Deism, on the other hand, will not obviously change your life (assuming you're converting to deism from atheism).

 

[FreedByte]

What you've said is a tautology. Basically "a reason to believe in deism is that you believe in deism." You're still not providing a reason to believe.

Deists have various reasons for believing, all of them naturalistic and rational. Christians have various reasons for believing in Jesus, the majority of them supernatural.

Whether or not it's a fact is open to debate.

If it was a fact, it would be provable, and it's not.

So it is pleasurable to understand truth?

Not necessarily, but it is a privilege.

I don't even know what this could possibly mean.

My point was that Christianity, if believed, is incredibly relevant. It will change your life if you believe it. Deism, on the other hand, will not obviously change your life (assuming you're converting to deism from atheism).

Of course it would change my life. It is more spiritual than atheism. And either way, it would change my life because I would go about my life believing something differently, which would alter the future. See chaos theory.

 

[Tree of Life]

Deists have various reasons for believing, all of them naturalistic and rational.

Could you provide an example?

If it was a fact, it would be provable, and it's not.

Interesting logic. If X is not provable X is not a fact. You probably can't prove that you ate breakfast last week but that doesn't mean it's not a fact that you did.

 

[FreedByte]

Could you provide an example?

The need for a prime mover

You probably can't prove that you ate breakfast last week but that doesn't mean it's not a fact that you did.

It might be regarded by me as a fact, but not by science.