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Deism

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Silent Bob

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If God was supposed to have created the mankind and then have nothing to do with it, does that not seem a bit foolish in the first place to just create it and leave it running by itself.
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If God is perfect then His Creation is also perfect. If the world needed intervention to "work right" then the Creator is not perfect. What good is a clock if you have to constantly update the time?

This is exactly my logical problem with all revealed religions. Intervention/revelation should not be needed since God is perfect.
 
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slayer-2004

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Now thats logic .
 
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JSynon

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If God is perfect then His Creation is also perfect. If the world needed intervention to "work right" then the Creator is not perfect.
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I do not see the logic here. Could not a perfect God purposefully create an imperfect creation?
 
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JSynon

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To serve what purpose exactly?
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To give us the choice to love him. If he created us perfect, we would have no choice but to love him. Forced love is no love at all.
Confuse countless of cultures, spark up religious wars and send a good portion of His creation to Hell?
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This is our fault, not his. You might also want to check out this thread on hell, it's quite interesting.
Sorry I dont believe in sadistic deities.
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I highly doubt that he derives any type of pleasure from our pain.
 
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Silent Bob

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If he created us perfect,
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Christian logic and egoism.

I don't mean create US perfect I said perfect creation. A universe that could bare life using basic laws of nature, evolve life and give birth to sentient beings. Not just create humans. Which I agree with you are far from perfect especially in evolutionary terms.

A perfect creation means that it could function without the need for intervention and little fairies running around changing this giving to believers that! A perfect creation is by far not a heavenly one as well. Since, I think that, one must first suffer in order to appreciate the good things in life.

What I mean by perfect is perfectly balanced in all ways. An action causes a reaction without the need for intervention. It can't go off track because it doesn't go on tracks. Where it goes we are too little and unevolved to understand but that doesn't mean that it doesn't go somewhere.

This is our fault, not his.
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Sure it is. If you believe in a revealed and intervening God then you must give Him all credit for what has been caused by His followers to other human beings (good or bad). After all a parent (God) that would give a nuclear bomb to a child (or a divine message full of hate to hairless apes) is at the very least a naughty naughty person (God).
 
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Silent Bob

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I don't see how divine intervention proves God imperfect.
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Read my clock analogy once again. Hit yourself with a Bible. Go read a book that was written more recently.

Divine intervention proves that in the Christian view the Creation is not perfect. Besides it raises some interesting moral questions about God's infinite LOVE. If you can go on believing in a God who in His infalibility created an imperfect universe then thats something you have to come to terms with.
 
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JSynon

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Let me rephrase. I understand your argument, but I do not think it is valid. There is a difference between "perfect" and "self-sufficient". Who says God wanted to create a totally self-sufficient "clock"? I think it is entirely reasonable for a perfect God to purposefully create something that is not self-sufficient.

And is it not possible that God didn't step in to fix things up or re-adjust the clock, but to reveal himself to his creation?
 
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Silent Bob

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First of all the method of revelation used by your God is far from being perfect. Secondly revelation in a perfect world is not necessary. A world that would work perfectly would be able to act according to your God's will without the existance of Holy books and prophets. In other words IF your God knew what he was doing he wouldn't have to reveal nothing to us .

Also lets talk about perfection and your God. I think that something is perfect when there is no way to possibly make it any better. A non-self-sufficient world has at least ONE way to be made better become self-sufficient. So a non-self-sufficient world is NOT perfect. Now the best way to review God as a creator is to take a look at His creation. If the creation is perfect then He is a perfect creator. If it is not then He is an underachiever. My definition of a perfect creation can hold with all the evils and ills of this world yours, I think, does not.
 
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silverflare

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To give us the choice to love him. If he created us perfect, we would have no choice but to love him. Forced love is no love at all.
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This is our fault, not his. You might also want to check out this thread on hell, it's quite interesting.
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Ah, I see. So God created us imperfect, but the blame still lies on us. Interesting... Next time I get a bad grade on a paper, I'll be sure to tell my professor that it wasn't my fault, but that the paper itself is to blame.
 
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