• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

gord44

Well-Known Member
Nov 4, 2004
4,361
666
✟37,508.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Amazing! May I ask what made you trade Christianity for Islam, and what made you trade both for Deism?

I struggled with Christianity over the last 15 years. I tried a few different paths and was convinced of a creator yet not wanting to continually stumble in and out of Christianity so I tried out Islam for 6 weeks or to get a feel for it. It was a peaceful and interesting 6 weeks but in the end I found the same issues in it I found I disliked about Christianity. For now a deist matches me most closely. I believe in God but am not interested in defining much about him beyond that. He is our creator and we should be excellent to each other is about all I know.
 
Upvote 0

VeroObscura

Newbie
Sep 18, 2014
75
1
UK
✟22,700.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Private
I'm curious what people think of the idea of a symptomatic rather than causal god. Would it qualify?

I am talking about a consciousness the magnitude of which we cannot comprehend and which results from the complex interaction between all things in The Universe and of which we are tiny individual parts. It would likely not be aware of us any more than we are aware of the firing of a single synapse.

But NOT a creator.

I'm not asking whether you believe in that, especially, but whether you could count that as God, were such a thing true.
 
Upvote 0

gord44

Well-Known Member
Nov 4, 2004
4,361
666
✟37,508.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married

interesting thought to ponder.
 
Upvote 0

AskTheFamily

Junior Member
Mar 14, 2010
2,854
195
39
Ottawa
✟14,900.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Muslim
Marital Status
Single
Politics
CA-NDP

Why would it be a god as opposed to just a giant consciousness?
 
Upvote 0

AskTheFamily

Junior Member
Mar 14, 2010
2,854
195
39
Ottawa
✟14,900.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Muslim
Marital Status
Single
Politics
CA-NDP
That's the point of my question: what defines a god? There have been plenty of gods with very finite spheres of influence...

A being that is worthy of worship. Monotheistic religions believe only one being can be worthy of worship.

Personally I don't know what would make a being worthy of worship. But just being a giant mind certainly won't cut it for me.
 
Upvote 0

VeroObscura

Newbie
Sep 18, 2014
75
1
UK
✟22,700.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Private
A being that is worthy of worship. Monotheistic religions believe only one being can be worthy of worship.

Personally I don't know what would make a being worthy of worship. But just being a giant mind certainly won't cut it for me.

Merely being so vastly superior to our intelligence that we can't even begin to imagine it, and everything about its intentions and actions that goes along with that? Really?

Show me a being that wants to be worshiped and I'll show you one that isn't worthy of it.
 
Upvote 0

AskTheFamily

Junior Member
Mar 14, 2010
2,854
195
39
Ottawa
✟14,900.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Muslim
Marital Status
Single
Politics
CA-NDP

So it's not just a super giant intelligence but a superior intelligence? How superior is this intelligence and what about it's morality? If it has no goodness but it just super intelligent, why would it be superior?
 
Upvote 0

VeroObscura

Newbie
Sep 18, 2014
75
1
UK
✟22,700.00
Faith
Seeker
Marital Status
Private
So it's not just a super giant intelligence but a superior intelligence? How superior is this intelligence and what about it's morality? If it has no goodness but it just super intelligent, why would it be superior?

Well with your (and my) puny intelligence, we are in no position to judge compared with something so far superior to our ability to understand. Its understanding of what is or isn't good is not to be questioned by mere mortals.
 
Upvote 0

Chesterton

Whats So Funny bout Peace Love and Understanding
Site Supporter
May 24, 2008
26,357
21,509
Flatland
✟1,094,697.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
I know in Islam the earth and heavens both are said to have consciousness. Everything was said to have it. But the heavens as big as they are aren't believed to be a god.

Material nature has literal consciousness in Islam?
 
Upvote 0

dcalling

Senior Member
Jan 31, 2014
3,190
325
✟115,271.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married

God is something spiritual, something that give us intelligence. The computers' computing power will surpass humans in anther 15 years or so, but I bet they won't be able to do things we can do, they lack that something (maybe what we call soul).

As in material world there is no right, wrong or feelings, but we all seems to know right from wrong and have feelings (most of the time given the conditions, some are too grey to tell). That I believe is from God.
 
Upvote 0

AskTheFamily

Junior Member
Mar 14, 2010
2,854
195
39
Ottawa
✟14,900.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Muslim
Marital Status
Single
Politics
CA-NDP
Material nature has literal consciousness in Islam?

Yes, the sun, the moon, atoms, all glorify and worship God and do have a consciousness according to Islam.

Rocks are alive and have perception according to Islam.
 
Upvote 0

Chesterton

Whats So Funny bout Peace Love and Understanding
Site Supporter
May 24, 2008
26,357
21,509
Flatland
✟1,094,697.00
Faith
Eastern Orthodox
Marital Status
Single
Yes, the sun, the moon, atoms, all glorify and worship God and do have a consciousness according to Islam.

Rocks are alive and have perception according to Islam.

I've never heard this before. Are you sure? Do you know, is this in the book or in some interpretations or something?
 
Upvote 0

Rationalt

Newbie
Oct 18, 2009
3,015
100
✟3,858.00
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Married
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Rationalt

Newbie
Oct 18, 2009
3,015
100
✟3,858.00
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Married

 
Upvote 0

Jane_the_Bane

Gaia's godchild
Feb 11, 2004
19,359
3,426
✟183,333.00
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
UK-Greens
What would a universe without a designer look like, then?
I'd argue that sentient beings deliberately re-arranging matter to their advantage is actually the odd-one-out, rather than the rule. Crystals form into mathematical patterns without any interference by a sapient designer - and that is how you ultimately differentiate between an artificial and a natural structure.

See, I'm not utterly averse to the notion that reality in and of itself is "sentient" on a level that's above and beyond anything we might fathom. My spiritual experiences so far would support that notion, in fact. But the term "designer" suggests an anthropomorphic projection, (at least to me,) even in the absence of physical characteristics or gender. However reality might have come to be, I cannot really see it as the result of some uberbeing consulting the transdimensional equivalent of a blueprint and go: "Hmmmm... I need to adjust the density of water in order to make biological life possible."
That's just putting the horse on the saddle. We are here because the conditions on this planet allow us to be here. The conditions aren't here so we might come about.
 
Upvote 0

Jane_the_Bane

Gaia's godchild
Feb 11, 2004
19,359
3,426
✟183,333.00
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
Politics
UK-Greens
As in material world there is no right, wrong or feelings, but we all seems to know right from wrong and have feelings (most of the time given the conditions, some are too grey to tell). That I believe is from God.
Social instincts and even moralities are hardly unfathomable, numinous or supernatural qualities. Evolutionary biology accounts for complex social behaviour, and you can observe it in other species. Species that, if we follow Christian orthodoxy, lack a "soul" on account of not being human.

Here's what happen if you give unequal pay to capuchin monkeys for performing the same task:

What happen when you give one monkey cucumbers but grapes for another monkey - YouTube
 
Upvote 0

AskTheFamily

Junior Member
Mar 14, 2010
2,854
195
39
Ottawa
✟14,900.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Muslim
Marital Status
Single
Politics
CA-NDP

I agree evolution can account for morality. But can it account for certain knowledge that morality is not an illusion?

If it's a construct like our identity is created by our brains, how do we know goodness is really good as opposed to just an illusion, a perception we have that has nothing to do with reality? Created by evolution yes, but an illusion...?
 
Upvote 0