Defunding Planned Parenthood

pdudgeon · Aug 5, 2015

Yes! it was SilentNoMore that was part of the Canada for Life rally that i saw earlier on EWTN tv.
they were the ones giving public testimonies on how abortion affected their lives.
Like Sharon was quoted as saying above, abortion is not just one day out of the rest of your life;
it will affect the rest of your life.

MikeK · Aug 5, 2015

pdudgeon said:
basically the church and the world look at charitable giving in different ways.
The church deems it a good thing inspired by God to help take care of those who are unable themselves
to work for a living. And they feel that it should be done so that the matter lies between the donor and God.

the world sees giving as something to be publicized; good for the receiver and equally good for the donor.

and that is why using a worldly approach in a religious forum will probably not be received as well as you had hoped it would be.

Many Churches and wonderful Catholic outreach programs have been at least partially funded by matching challenge grants. Your suggestion that they are somehow worldly is rather insulting to the good men and women who have used this method to do the Lord's work.

chandraclaws · Aug 5, 2015

pdudgeon said:
The U.S. does not have a major problem with population growth due to the number of births.
Growth in births has slowed down in recent years and is now barely above replacement level.
There is a growth in the number of immigrants, but that's another topic.

one thing that you have forgotten is that those children who are not aborted will grow up and get jobs and start contributing to the unemployment benefits,
the health care, the taxes, and the social security fund. Some of them will become doctors, nurses, med techs, teachers etc.

but if those same children are aborted then we will see lower numbers in the social security fund, fewer doctors, etc.
In other words, when the generation that is aborting children gets older, who will be there to take care of them?
swords have two edges for a very good reason---if one side doesn't get you, the other one will.

I've heard this argument before. It doesn't work. The "not aborted" children are no more likely to get jobs, contribute to unemployment benefits, health care, taxes and social security or become docs, nurses, teachers, etc, than they are to do be chronically unemployed, commit crimes, go to prison, make no contribution at all, do something totally different, or even vote republican (just kidding about the vote part...). I am not promoting abortion, nor do I believe it can be a financial issue.

SolomonVII · Aug 5, 2015

pdudgeon said:
The U.S. does not have a major problem with population growth due to the number of births.
Growth in births has slowed down in recent years and is now barely above replacement level.
There is a growth in the number of immigrants, but that's another topic.

one thing that you have forgotten is that those children who are not aborted will grow up and get jobs and start contributing to the unemployment benefits,
the health care, the taxes, and the social security fund. Some of them will become doctors, nurses, med techs, teachers etc.

but if those same children are aborted then we will see lower numbers in the social security fund, fewer doctors, etc.
In other words, when the generation that is aborting children gets older, who will be there to take care of them?

swords have two edges for a very good reason---if one side doesn't get you, the other one will.

An inverted demographic chart is a big problem for sure. especially with a sophisticated medical system taking care of the medical needs of that ageing population, expensively of course, and social security giving them pay for no work for decades as that excellent health care keeps on extending that second childhood.
It has a real Ponzi scheme anyway with everyone living on money borrowed from the generations not yet born.
Only now it is is relying on money borrowed from generations that never will be born.
Europe has come up with the idea that importing people from North Africa and the peoples on the other side of the Mediterranean will solve the problem of paying for the aged, and that that imported people will be willing to be the children that indigenous Europeans no longer bother to have.
I wonder how that will work out for them?

(Hint. good thing that euthanasia laws are being liberalized there ..)

ebia · Aug 6, 2015

How would it not work?

pdudgeon · Aug 6, 2015

chandraclaws said:
I've heard this argument before. It doesn't work. The "not aborted" children are no more likely to get jobs, contribute to unemployment benefits, health care, taxes and social security or become docs, nurses, teachers, etc, than they are to do be chronically unemployed, commit crimes, go to prison, make no contribution at all, do something totally different, or even vote republican (just kidding about the vote part...). I am not promoting abortion, nor do I believe it can be a financial issue.

but since they will have more opportunity to get the available jobs due to a reduced work force (boomers retiring plus lower birth rate) it does make sense.
We can't keep on importing people just to boost the numbers. Even if they get jobs here, not all of that take home pay would be staying in the U. S.
it would still be a drain on the economy (as well as permanently changing the culture) to depend on immigrants to support the economy here.

Besides which, it's already been tried on the Americas by England, Spain, and Portugal many years ago.

so no, the best plan is still to stop throwing away our children--our primary resource-- and to begin to appreciate them for the gift that they are to us from God.

MikeK · Aug 6, 2015

The beautiful thing is that we as individuals generally, barring medical issues and whatnot, have some say in how many children we produce. Women have 25 good years to have children to populate this country should they believe it is important to do so, men significantly more.

brewmama · Aug 6, 2015

ebia said:
Sorry, but a scan of it doesn't seem to answer my question.
Are they offering all the same services to the same extent to all the same people?

Yes.

brewmama · Aug 6, 2015

Fantine said:
I decided to go to FactCheck.org to find out the truth about the clandestine Planned Parenthood videos recorded by the "Center for Medical Progress." The article determined that the amounts per specimen discussed would barely cover the transfer and shipping costs. In addition, it determined that as long as profit is not involved, there was nothing illegal in using the remains, with the women's consent, for medical research.

It is possible that women who have had abortions might gain some comfort in knowing that donating the fetal tissue might help save many lives--as did the fetuses used to develop polio vaccines. They might grieve, as parents who donate the organs of a child who died tragically, but they might derive some comfort--would you deny them that comfort?

I had a miscarriage once, four months, and if that fetus could have been used to develop vaccines or cure dread diseases like polio, I would have consented (as it was, I miscarried at home, brought the remains to the obstetrician--they did a pathology report and then disposed of him in whatever way it was done in the late 1970's....) His soul is with God and I think if his remains could have developed a vaccine or a cure that would have been honoring his brief pre-born life...

I have a friend whose baby died during heart surgery at the age of 5 weeks. The doctors wanted to do an autopsy to learn how they could improve the operation (this was 1974) to save other babies. Emotionally, she didn't want to allow it, but when I see all the babies who survive infant heart surgery today I know that her little girl's autopsy contributed to the success of that surgery today.

http://www.factcheck.org/2015/07/unspinning-the-planned-parenthood-video/

http://www.breitbart.com/big-journa...k-orgs-look-at-the-planned-parenthood-videos/

"But despite the fact that PP is very worried about anything that looks like making money, Dr. Nucatola eventually admits they’re willing to do so, “at the end of the day, they’re a non-profit, they just don’t want to — they want to break even. And if they can do a little better than break even, and do so in a way that seems reasonable, they’re happy to do that.
Finally, as mentioned above, FactCheck has offered no response to the second and third videos. You may recall that in the second video Dr. Mary Gatter was seen to be discussing prices with the people posing as buyers. She was worried about being low-balled and being put in a bad negotiating position. She joked that she wanted a Lamborghini. All of that seems like profit-seeking talk. Even George Stephanopoulos found it problematic. So far as I know, Stephanopoulos is not a Planned Parenthood critic."
etc.

brewmama · Aug 6, 2015

ebia said:
You seem to have missed answering this one

Of course. If the need is there it will be filled. And if PP is forced to shut down over such a minor thing, then those employees will be looking for work.

pdudgeon · Aug 6, 2015

MikeK said:
The beautiful thing is that we as individuals generally, barring medical issues and whatnot, have some say in how many children we produce. Women have 25 good years to have children to populate this country should they believe it is important to do so, men significantly more.

we have always had that ability whether planned parenthood existed or whether it didn't.
the difference is that previously it was up to the couple to decide how many children to have,
and it was the couple who had ALL the say in such things.

try telling women today that they have 25 years to produce children, and you would be laughed out of the room.
today's society has effectively boiled that window down to 5 years.... maybe 10 years if you stretch it.

God's intention for women was two fold: to be a helpmeet for their husbands, and a mother to their children.
Those are both necessary and productive roles in life---anchoring roles, even.
But for PP that's not enough, so hand-in-hand with seeking to 'plan parenthood' they also sought to change the role of women
themselves.

And as a result the roles of both women and men have undergone a transformation.
From their mutual roles as parents who help, guide, and nurture, they've become independent
from each other, lost their natural God-given roles in life, and their influence on the future society in one fell swoop.

pdudgeon · Aug 6, 2015

MikeK said:
Is anyone here suggesting that abortion on demand should remain the law of the land or that PP should continue to murder children en masse or are you constructing a convinient but elaborate straw man so as to avoid a sincere conversation?

the point is the PP is making that argument, and the White House is backing them up.
That's why we are arguing that PP should be defunded by the federal government, because the government should not be
aiding and promoting the business of killing it's citizens who themselves have done nothing wrong.

ebia · Aug 6, 2015

brewmama said:
Of course. If the need is there it will be filled.

No answer then, just an unsupported assumption.

And if PP is forced to shut down over such a minor thing, then those employees will be looking for work.

So you get the same counceling. And you're okay with that?

MikeK · Aug 6, 2015

pdudgeon said:
we have always had that ability whether planned parenthood existed or whether it didn't.
the difference is that previously it was up to the couple to decide how many children to have,
and it was the couple who had ALL the say in such things.

try telling women today that they have 25 years to produce children, and you would be laughed out of the room.
today's society has effectively boiled that window down to 5 years.... maybe 10 years if you stretch it.

God's intention for women was two fold: to be a helpmeet for their husbands, and a mother to their children.
Those are both necessary and productive roles in life---anchoring roles, even.
But for PP that's not enough, so hand-in-hand with seeking to 'plan parenthood' they also sought to change the role of women
themselves.

And as a result the roles of both women and men have undergone a transformation.
From their mutual roles as parents who help, guide, and nurture, they've become independent
from each other, lost their natural God-given roles in life, and their influence on the future society in one fell swoop.

At the end of the day we can complain about it or we can look back on our contributions to this country's population. We can have been part of the problem or we can rest knowing that our families were large and bucking the trends.

MikeK · Aug 6, 2015

pdudgeon said:
the point is the PP is making that argument, and the White House is backing them up.
That's why we are arguing that PP should be defunded by the federal government, because the government should not be
aiding and promoting the business of killing it's citizens who themselves have done nothing wrong.

Who are you arguing with? I don't think anyone in this thread has argued for continued federal funding for PP.

brewmama · Aug 6, 2015

ebia said:
No answer then, just an unsupported assumption.

So you get the same counceling. And you're okay with that?

Why wouldn't anyone be OK with it? Why aren't you in favor of it?

pdudgeon · Aug 7, 2015

MikeK said:
At the end of the day we can complain about it or we can look back on our contributions to this country's population. We can have been part of the problem or we can rest knowing that our families were large and bucking the trends.

I have news for you....God made a wonderful world for us, but He didn't stop there.
God is still working so why should we be content to sit back and rest on our contributions when there is still work to be done?

I can assure you that satan was not content to sit back and rest having accomplished his
goal of sowing the seeds of sin and death into the world that God created.

No, he is still at work doing the same thing; whispering into itching ears, sowing lies, deceit, and feelings of false entitlement among the citizens of the world today.

God's word, on the other hand is both living and active, and has the power to cut to the quick of anything that is false. His arm is not too short and His word is just as effective today as it was in Jesus' time and before that.

Our Popes know this also, and this is why they write their encyclicals to the faithful, so that we won't sit around and become complacent. They do this for our good and for the good of the world as well.
They fight for the faith and so should we whenever we have the chance to do so.

The effort to defund PP is one such fight for the rights of the children to experience life as God intended that they should.

MikeK · Aug 7, 2015

pdudgeon said:
I have news for you....God made a wonderful world for us, but He didn't stop there.
God is still working so why should we be content to sit back and rest on our contributions when there is still work to be done?

I can assure you that satan was not content to sit back and rest having accomplished his
goal of sowing the seeds of sin and death into the world that God created.

No, he is still at work doing the same thing; whispering into itching ears, sowing lies, deceit, and feelings of false entitlement among the citizens of the world today.

God's word, on the other hand is both living and active, and has the power to cut to the quick of anything that is false. His arm is not too short and His word is just as effective today as it was in Jesus' time and before that.

Our Popes know this also, and this is why they write their encyclicals to the faithful, so that we won't sit around and become complacent. They do this for our good and for the good of the world as well.
They fight for the faith and so should we whenever we have the chance to do so.

The effort to defund PP is one such fight for the rights of the children to experience life as God intended that they should.

I said "at the end of the day", metaphorically speaking of the end of our lives, of our toils. If we're concerned about population loss or growth, we'll have a chance to look at, in concrete terms, our contribution to it. Did we contracept? Did we abort? Did we practice NFP without a sufficiently serious reason? Did we adopt at-risk children? Did we go without in order to grow our families? What was our sacrifice for this cause, for the Lord? Were we clanging gongs or did we live our lives in ways that consistently demonstrated just how much we valued all human lives?

mark46 · Aug 9, 2015

MikeK said:
I said "at the end of the day", metaphorically speaking of the end of our lives, of our toils. If we're concerned about population loss or growth, we'll have a chance to look at, in concrete terms, our contribution to it. Did we contracept? Did we abort? Did we practice NFP without a sufficiently serious reason? Did we adopt at-risk children? Did we go without in order to grow our families? What was our sacrifice for this cause, for the Lord? Were we clanging gongs or did we live our lives in ways that consistently demonstrated just how much we valued all human lives?

yes, and did we support legislation to reduce the number of abortions by prohibiting all abortions after 20 weeks

MikeK · Aug 9, 2015

mark46 said:
yes, and did we support legislation to reduce the number of abortions by prohibiting all abortions after 20 weeks

Yup! I favor exactly such a law. It's probably the best we can get. Scott Walker favors such a law here in WI and I applaud him for it.

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