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Definition of "design"?

AV1611VET

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Because life can't necessarily exist everywhere.
Then I would say evolution is pretty weak.

For some reason, non-biological evolution was "strong" enough to "create" the sun, but its [much] weaker twin --- biological evolution --- can't seem to do a thing outside of this planet.

That's a little more than coincidental, if you ask me.
 
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Meshach

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Meshach said
Good-bye, more important things to do.
 
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Pete Harcoff

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To get a grasp on the amount of mutations we are dealing with here...
A recent experiment on bacteria went through 40,000 generations to produce a single change that enabled it to digest something it had not previously been able to handle.

Citation please.


Mutation rates aren't a problem. I think you're confusing isolating a specific change versus actual rates of mutation over time.

If we assume ~100 mutations per individual (based on estimates of mutations in humans this is very reasonable, even low), 250k generations and a mean population size of 100k, that's a total of 2.5 trillion mutations that could be introduced into the population during its evolution. Obviously most of them won't be fixed. There's only ~60-70 million or so total mutations seperating humans and chimps; that's 30-35 million for each lineage and even some of those aren't fixed.
 
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Pete Harcoff

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You're anthromorphizing the process of evolution now? That's just downright goofy.
 
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DrkSdBls

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It sure is!

Evolution is like a cheap fps (frames per second) movie, with most of the frames missing.

There's just not enough seconds in the universe for evolution to have gone from abiogenesis to us.

How can you state that with certainy? Have you counted them? How many Seconds would be required? How many Cells would be required to take of complete measurement? How about an Ocean of single Celled Organisms over a billion years instead of one Petridish over a single week.
 
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Meshach

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But you can prove without a doubt that they did land on 7?
 
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Pete Harcoff

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Dont' get him started. He doesn't have anything besides his silly and completely irrelevant analogies.
 
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AV1611VET

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In order to go from abiogenesis to us in one analog wave, you're going to need one doosey of a lot of mutants.

I can't remember who just recently said it, but if my memory serves me correctly, someone on here just recently said that a new species occurs something like every 174 mutants.

You're telling me that life went from a cyanovirus (or whatever it's called) to humankind in "only" 14 billion years?

I disagree.

As Sheriff Brodie said, 'We're going to need a bigger boat.'
 
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DrkSdBls

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The irony of that statement is that, yes, Evolution is kind of weak. It's an unavoidable trait resulting from it's inharent fragility. There are countless forces acting on it at all times which makes it all the more amazing that we've gotten this far!

But we're made it INSPITE of those forces.
 
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Pete Harcoff

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laconicstudent

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If you read my post you would see it wasn't my thoughts.

There are many more "by perfect chance" items I found,


Except you've shown that clearly you don't understand that when there are trillions of planets just in the OBSERVABLE portion of the universe, life happening by pure chance isn't that far fetched.

And you don't seem to realize that evolution isn't random.


It really is apparent you have no idea what you are talking about.
 
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AV1611VET

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But we're made it INSPITE of those forces.
Well, I'm not a Theistic Evolutionist, but if I was, I would answer this way:

We made it BECAUSE of those forces --- not IN SPITE of those forces.

And since I'm not a Theistic Evolutionist, I'll answer this way:

Not hardly.
 
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Meshach

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The usual response to those who dont agree with what you believe.
 
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AV1611VET

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It really is apparent you have no idea what you are talking about.
I have a thread on this that I can dig up --- but won't.

But I have two good questions for you, laconicstudent:

  1. If you think there's such a thing as abiogenesis, which came first in the universe, life or non-life?
  2. If you think God's method of choice is evolution, what did the angels evolve from?
 
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DrkSdBls

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But you can prove without a doubt that they did land on 7?

Well, If I were playing Craps and suddenly I now have more Money then a Started with, that's a good indecation that I won......

But, in all seriousness, this is a metaphor for chance and we're verging on crossing from Metaphor to debate on Gambling.

Needless to say, all we need to do is agree that Chance is based on Probablity and Probablity is a key factor in how the universe fuctions. We don't have to prove that the Dice landed on 7, we only need to agree that the Die were rolled! It's outcome is inconsiquintial.

It is your stipulation that just because there is such a low probablity of events occuring through Chance that it's impossible for them to Occur by Chance alone, am I correct?
 
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Pete Harcoff

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I don't agree with this line of thought. First of all, evolution is neither weak nor strong. It just is.

Second of all, we're not here in spite of anything. We're here because of the way things are. Suggesting we are here in spite of things, suggests that we are meant to be here no matter what. This obviously is not the case.
 
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AV1611VET

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DrkSdBls

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Well, I'm not a Theistic Evolutionist, but if I was, I would answer this way:

We made it BECAUSE of those forces --- not IN SPITE of those forces.

And since I'm not a Theistic Evolutionist, I'll answer this way:

Not hardly.

I never said "we were Made," AV. I said "We Made it."

There's a big difference. Yes, we are the result of all the Forces but I was refering to the forces acting against us; the forces that cause Dinosaurs to die out, that caused Neanderthal Man to die out, that caused countless billions of would-be proto-life to never have emerged in the first place.

Those Forces.
 
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