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Defining the term "evidence" in religion/science

Davian

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According to those who've written about for the past few thousand years, it is most commonly associated with the conveyance of knowledge/information and/or feelings of peace/tranquility/bliss.

The latter seems very vague, but as for the conveyance of knowledge or information, is there anyone that could demonstrate knowledge gained under controlled observation, such as the JREF challenge? At the very least, pass the "Preliminary Test"?

"The JREF will pay US$1,000,000 (One Million US Dollars) ("The Prize") to any person who demonstrates any psychic, supernatural, or paranormal ability under satisfactory observation."

Challenge Application

You would still be left with the issue of demonstrating the actual source of the information (god/spirit/ghost/other?), but it would be a start.
 
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durangodawood

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Well I'm out of my depth here, with some of these contemporary cosmology issues.

Lets just say: I'm talking about science as the scientific method I learned in school.... and NOT about the contemporary culture of any scientific institutions.
 
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Michael

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Well I'm out of my depth here, with some of these contemporary cosmology issues.

Lets just say: I'm talking about science as the scientific method I learned in school.... and NOT about the contemporary culture of any scientific institutions.

IMO the 'scientific method' works perfectly in an purely empirical setting. If it shows up in the lab, the scientific method works great IMO.

The problem crops up when the claim being made defies laboratory support. It's 'worse' when the claim *cannot* show up in a lab *by definition*. For instance, a theist will often tell me that 'God is supernatural' and I should *never* expect God to show up in a lab experiment. I cannot ever hope to 'verify' a "supernatural" claim in a real controlled experiment. Likewise, astronomers like to claim 'metric space expands'. Unfortunately not only does that *never* happen in a lab, it *cannot* happen in any lab on Earth according to their theory. This again is a claim that I could never hope to verify *physically*.

How does one even setup a valid 'test' for such claims that *absolutely* rules out every other possible option?

IMO that's where hypothetical physics becomes no better than any ordinary supernatural religious claim.

This is *absolutely* true with the supernatural goal posts are allowed to move.
 
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Michael

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APPLICATION FOR STATUS OF CLAIMANT This document ("The Application") outlines the offer made by the James Randi Educational Foundation ("JREF") concerning psychic, supernatural, or paranormal claims.
That effectively leaves me out since I do not believe in anything that is 'supernatural', "psychic" or "paranormal" (whatever that might be).

Besides, I think we all know who's making the real (and consistent) money at JREF.

"James Randi Sued Over "Bogus Million Dollar Challenge"...
Jailed mystery artist once 'Amazing' Randi's assistant --- under a different name - Sun Sentinel
http://www.bolenreport.com/feature_articles/jref - 990 2010.pdf
 
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Davian

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What has that to do with my point?

As it says in the application "Conjectures, hypotheses, or explanations of how the claimed powers might work may sometimes be considered as part of the protocol development. However, it is not necessary to include them in this application."

And the preliminary testing is not even done by them.

The question is, can this "conveyance of knowledge/information" be demonstrated controlled observation, or not?
 
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Michael

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The question is, can this "conveyance of knowledge/information" be demonstrated controlled observation, or not?

I certainly don't profess to control the Holy Spirit, nor do I know anyone that makes such a claim. What would you even use as a control mechanism?
 
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Davian

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I certainly don't profess to control the Holy Spirit, nor do I know anyone that makes such a claim. What would you even use as a control mechanism?

Dunno. Ask the OP. I doubt he'll come up with anything of significance.

 
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Michael

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Dunno. Ask the OP. I doubt he'll come up with anything of significance.


Cute. As soon as we can agree on a way to define "evidence" as it relates to claims that fail to show up in the lab, like the metric expansion of space, we should be all set.
 
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Davian

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Cute. As soon as we can agree on a way to define "evidence" as it relates to claims that fail to show up in the lab, like the metric expansion of space, we should be all set.

So you are throwing out the Holy Ghost with the bath water, then?

The expansion of space doesn't show up in your lab? You need a bigger lab.
 
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Michael

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So you are throwing out the Holy Ghost with the bath water, then?

No, not me. I actually I proposed one experiment that *might* work (God willing), but the control mechanism is the human, not the spirit itself, and the 'mechanism' is a relatively ordinary force of nature, not something Randi might be interested in.

The expansion of space doesn't show up in your lab? You need a bigger lab.
It's tad harder to control things when the lab has to be larger than the planet.

The comparison between *hypothetical* physics and God concepts is reasonable, but we still need a definition of what exactly constitutes as "evidence" in such scenarios.
 
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Davian

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The question still stands, can this "conveyance of knowledge/information" be demonstrated controlled observation, or not?
It's tad harder to control things when the lab has to be larger than the planet.
Not my problem.
The comparison between *hypothetical* physics and God concepts is reasonable, but we still need a definition of what exactly constitutes as "evidence" in such scenarios.
How is the comparison reasonable? What's a "God", other than a character in a book?
 
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Michael

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The question still stands, can this "conveyance of knowledge/information" be demonstrated controlled observation, or not?

Maybe. I did outline one possible way to find out in the Empirical theory of God thread.

How is the comparison reasonable? What's a "God", other than a character in a book?
It's a "thing" that people believe in, much like SUSY theory, or inflation theory.

What is inflation and dark energy besides supernatural gap filler in one otherwise utterly falsified cosmology theory?
 
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Davian

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Maybe. I did outline one possible way to find out in the Empirical theory of God thread.
A "not" at this time, then?
It's a "thing" that people believe in, much like SUSY theory, or inflation theory.

What is inflation and dark energy besides supernatural gap filler in one otherwise utterly falsified cosmology theory?

Could you be a bit more explicit with what this "God thing" is, other than a character in a book? Comparing it to other things does not help.
 
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Michael

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A "not" at this time, then?

Kinda like SUSY theory. It's possible, but not easy and not a given. That's *infinitely* better and more testable than claims about metric space expansion.

Could you be a bit more explicit with what this "God thing" is, other than a character in a book? Comparing it to other things does not help.

Much like the concept of 'dark matter', most God concepts are a tad vague, and poorly defined. There are however a few "specific" definitions of God to consider, these being my personal favorites:

Boltzmann brain - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Panentheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
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Loudmouth

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How many posts did it take to get to this same old windmill?
 
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Michael

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FYI, I'm still looking for an actual useful definition of "evidence" that might be applied to concepts that don't actually work/show up in the lab, including SUSY theory, metric expansion of space claims and various supernatural concepts of God.
 
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Loudmouth

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How many times have you personally taken the low road and called me a "crackpot" on some forum under some handle in cyberspace? 1000?

That's what crackpots do, they drag every thread to their windmill so they can have a tilt at it. No thread is immune to their obsession.
 
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