Defining "Messianic Judaism"

[Yareach]

Shalom,

I have been working on a project, and part of it is "defining" Messianic Judaism. I know many of us dislike labels (even the Messy-antics one!) and boundaries that limit people, but I would still like to solicit the opinions of others on this. Many Messianic sites, especially Messianic Organizations (MJAA, MHAC, IAMCS, AMC, UMJC, MIA, IFMJ, CPM, etc), seem to briefly touch on this (typically in their statement/articles of faith) but there typically isn't an "it" that seems to quite qualify what being "Messianic" is. Part of this is because of the great disparity in Messianic thought and practice (e.g. I have been to Messianic congregations in which people went to a restaurant after morning Shabbat services; some Messianics would be fine with this, many would not). Another "issue" is that many topics are peripheral, yet seem to define some groups (e.g. lost tribes).

So, how would you define "Messianic" in your own words?

What issues are central, and which are peripheral?

I am not necessarily looking for a statement of faith, but more along the lines of of what makes one "Messianic" in your opinion. It is always nice to hear how real people view their own faith.

Again, I am not trying to label anyone or exclude people, but what factors would you use to (even begrudgenly) lavel "Messianic-like Belief". What are the bare essentials? And (if easier), what in your opinion discludes one from being "Messianic".

Btw, I am mainly doing this because I just found ChristianForums.com and was delighted to see a Messianic forum. I always enjoying discussing scriptures and the body in the modern context and bouncing ideas and questions off of others, especially about a question like this about "identity" and how real people view these issues in practical ways. And to keep this thread on topic, I would like to emphatically state that we identify ourselves in Yeshua the Messiah first and foremost. My question is more directed in regards to the "clumping" together of certain similar minded believers and what defines this clump that has become popularly known as "Messianic". My question is not intended as a divisional one, but instead one of perspective

Shalom b'Yeshua,
Yareach

Ps- Extra credit for those who are willing to explain if they see a distinction between movements like "Hebrew Roots" and "Messianic Judaism", and if so "what".

 

[Athaliamum]

This is a good link for finding out other Messianic Jewish beliefs of individuals on this forum.

http://www.christianforums.com/t3958909-messianic-judaism-forum-faqs-subjects-of-interest.html

 

[visionary]

Even one Jew can hold 5 opinions, so I like that freedom not to be nailed down to any one thing, for I been with the Lord enough to know, He keeps fine tuning it for me. What I express today may not be exactly how I will express it tommorrow. I just keep praying that the Lord will help me grow in faith and walk each day. Life with Him has been and will continue to be an adventure. For example: Yesterday I ran into a Nazerene website that I found facinating. Will that change me and my lifestyle?? Who knows.

 

[Henaynei]

Messianic:

Jew - born to a Jewish mother or converted to Judaism - who believes Yeshua is HaShem and who strives serve him and to be ever more knowledgeable and observant of Torah (and Talmud where it does not conflict with Torah)

Gentile - non-Jew who believes Yeshua is HaShem, does NOT claim to be Jewish and who strives to serve him and to be ever more knowledgeable and observant of Torah (and Talmud where it does not conflict with Torah)

b'Shalom
Henaynei

 

[LadyGarnetRose]

Messianic:

Jew - born to a Jewish mother or converted to Judaism - who believes Yeshua is HaShem and who strives serve him and to be ever more knowledgeable and observant of Torah (and Talmud where it does not conflict with Torah)

Gentile - non-Jew who believes Yeshua is HaShem, does NOT claim to be Jewish and who strives to serve him and to be ever more knowledgeable and observant of Torah (and Talmud where it does not conflict with Torah)

b'Shalom
Henaynei

I agree with Henaynei in the definition.

Personally, when folks ask me what it means to ME to be a Messianic Jew I say, "I'm Jewish, I just so happen to believe Yeshua to be Messiah."

 

[Yareach]

Messianic:

Jew - born to a Jewish mother or converted to Judaism - who believes Yeshua is HaShem and who strives serve him and to be ever more knowledgeable and observant of Torah (and Talmud where it does not conflict with Torah)

Gentile - non-Jew who believes Yeshua is HaShem, does NOT claim to be Jewish and who strives to serve him and to be ever more knowledgeable and observant of Torah (and Talmud where it does not conflict with Torah)

b'Shalom
Henaynei

Shalom Henaynei,

So would you say "Messianic Judaism" is composed of believers we could/would label as "Messianic Jews" and "Messianic Gentiles" or "Jews and Gentiles" for short?

While I like your answer I find the movement curious because there are a lot of primariy, and perephrial, issues that tend distinguish the movement. For example, using your definition:

• believes Yeshua is HaShem => This is an area many of us have identified as a core "battlegrounds" in the movement (coming from both sides: the Messiahship of Yeshua; and the pre-existance and divinity of Yeshua). There is a growing group of people who consider themselves Messianic (in the Christian sense) who do not accept the divinity of Yeshua.

• who strives serve him and to be ever more knowledgeable and observant of Torah => Again, while I like your answer, there is a *lot* of disagreement about Torah. Part of this is because a sizable number of Messianics have dispensational backgrounds/practices, but also because there are "Hebrew Roots" groups as well as "Pro-Israel" segments that align themselves primarily as Messianics on those grounds and don't see Torah in this light.

• and Talmud where it does not conflict with Torah => What is the Talmud Same as above, many self-labeled Messianics don't see much relevance of the Talmud even when it doesn't conflict with the Torah or Apostolic teachings.

I am not saying your answer is wrong, just posing my "troubles" with identifying the core values of the movement.

Essentially, many consider themselves Messianic for different reasons and disagree in many of the details.

I guess that is what happens with a movement over and above a denomination or church.

Putting aside what we should properly label as a "true" Messianic, from the material I have read it seems the Messianic movement has three big players:

• Hebrew Roots. Those interested in the Jewish origins of the New Testament as an excersize of study and incorporating interesting and edifying elements into their current worship pattern.

• Identity. Those groups that wish to align themselves closely with the Jewish people and/or the Nation of Israel. (This category can be further broken up in a number of ways with various motives).

• Torah Observant. Those who identify with/in Yeshua and also see a role for Torah observance in a life of faith.

I could be wrong though... there are a lot of perephrial issues, and arguements within those above three points (e.g. I have seen modern Messianic groups that teach you have to be circumcised to be saved).

Again, thanks for your feedback! I like your definition personally ... for my project I am trying to be loose enough to "include" a wide degree of people in dialogue without betraying fundamental truths as well as sensible, and agreeable, boundaries of what makes one Messianic and what precludes one from that label.

As an aside, this is why there is a poliferation of terms as Messianic has become very fuzzy and inclusive as a general term. I know a number of scholars who are beginning to use terms like "Apostolic Judaism" to describe the definition we appear to both be agreeable to

 

[christinepro]

I was describing M.J. to my nephew and he stated that we do things like the early believers. I thought that was cool coming from someone who just heard about it.

 

[christianmomof3]

I don't think that it can be defined in any kind of simple way. According to some definitions - I think perhaps the MJAA one, I would be considered a Messianic Jew because I am Jewish by birth and was raised in Reform Judaism and I am now a born again Christian.
According to most if not all of the MJs here on this board, I am not a Messianic Jew because I am not "torah observant" which is not something that is necessary in Reform Judaism.
So, after all that I have learned on this forum I have realized that I do not fit into their definition of MJ.
I am not sure if I fit into any category of MJ, but I am still Jewish and I am a born again Christian.
I feel like there is nowhere that I really fit in.
My Jewish upbringing and beliefs have and always will affect my understanding of the Lord making that understanding different from the understanding of gentile Christians.
But, we are all One in Christ Jesus.
The MJs and Christians are my brothers and sisters in Christ and the Jews are my people.

 

[christinepro]

I don't think that it can be defined in any kind of simple way. According to some definitions - I think perhaps the MJAA one, I would be considered a Messianic Jew because I am Jewish by birth and was raised in Reform Judaism and I am now a born again Christian.
According to most if not all of the MJs here on this board, I am not a Messianic Jew because I am not "torah observant" which is not something that is necessary in Reform Judaism.
So, after all that I have learned on this forum I have realized that I do not fit into their definition of MJ.
I am not sure if I fit into any category of MJ, but I am still Jewish and I am a born again Christian.
I feel like there is nowhere that I really fit in.
My Jewish upbringing and beliefs have and always will affect my understanding of the Lord making that understanding different from the understanding of gentile Christians.
But, we are all One in Christ Jesus.
The MJs and Christians are my brothers and sisters in Christ and the Jews are my people.

My Jewish friend who now goes to the Anglican Church and the Pentecostal Church refers to herself as a Hebrew Christian.

 

[christianmomof3]

My Jewish friend who now goes to the Anglican Church and the Pentecostal Church refers to herself as a Hebrew Christian.

I am not sure that term is seen as a positive one by the Jews. I prefer to just say I am a Jew and I am a born-again Christian.

 

[Bananna]

Messianic:

Jew - born to a Jewish mother or converted to Judaism - who believes Yeshua is HaShem and who strives serve him and to be ever more knowledgeable and observant of Torah (and Talmud where it does not conflict with Torah)

Gentile - non-Jew who believes Yeshua is HaShem, does NOT claim to be Jewish and who strives to serve him and to be ever more knowledgeable and observant of Torah (and Talmud where it does not conflict with Torah)

b'Shalom
Henaynei

Ditto

I find studying the Jewish prospective has given me clarity in studying all the scriptures and in combatting myths.

 

[stone]

Shalom,

I have been working on a project, and part of it is "defining" Messianic Judaism. I know many of us dislike labels (even the Messy-antics one!) and boundaries that limit people, but I would still like to solicit the opinions of others on this. Many Messianic sites, especially Messianic Organizations (MJAA, MHAC, IAMCS, AMC, UMJC, MIA, IFMJ, CPM, etc), seem to briefly touch on this (typically in their statement/articles of faith) but there typically isn't an "it" that seems to quite qualify what being "Messianic" is. Part of this is because of the great disparity in Messianic thought and practice (e.g. I have been to Messianic congregations in which people went to a restaurant after morning Shabbat services; some Messianics would be fine with this, many would not). Another "issue" is that many topics are peripheral, yet seem to define some groups (e.g. lost tribes).

So, how would you define "Messianic" in your own words?

What issues are central, and which are peripheral?

I am not necessarily looking for a statement of faith, but more along the lines of of what makes one "Messianic" in your opinion. It is always nice to hear how real people view their own faith.

Again, I am not trying to label anyone or exclude people, but what factors would you use to (even begrudgenly) lavel "Messianic-like Belief". What are the bare essentials? And (if easier), what in your opinion discludes one from being "Messianic".

Btw, I am mainly doing this because I just found ChristianForums.com and was delighted to see a Messianic forum. I always enjoying discussing scriptures and the body in the modern context and bouncing ideas and questions off of others, especially about a question like this about "identity" and how real people view these issues in practical ways. And to keep this thread on topic, I would like to emphatically state that we identify ourselves in Yeshua the Messiah first and foremost. My question is more directed in regards to the "clumping" together of certain similar minded believers and what defines this clump that has become popularly known as "Messianic". My question is not intended as a divisional one, but instead one of perspective

Shalom b'Yeshua,
Yareach

Ps- Extra credit for those who are willing to explain if they see a distinction between movements like "Hebrew Roots" and "Messianic Judaism", and if so "what".

It's very simple, it's a zeal to learn Torah!

 

[Ivy]

My understanding of Messianic Judaism, thus far, is as follows (and I'm a member of a Messianic congregation, btw): It is supposed to be space for Jewish believers in Yeshua/Jesus who want to continue a Jewish lifestyle and practice.

However, in reality, MJ congregations have a 50 to 70 percent Gentile (like yours truly) constituency, and the reasons for their being there vary.

Some believe that all believers in Yeshua, whether Jew or Gentile, are obligated to the whole Torah, and they are MJ in order to learn how to do this. Some are there in a servant capacity to help create this Jewish space as an amends for the wrongs done by Christians to Jews in the past.

 

[christinepro]

I am not sure that term is seen as a positive one by the Jews. I prefer to just say I am a Jew and I am a born-again Christian.

She still goes to the Synagogue as well. I don't think she has any problems. She was happy she got to open the Arc during Hanukkah. I know that her family in Europe were very angry with her.

 

[Henaynei]

Shalom Henaynei,

So would you say ...

your response deserves a thoughtful reply and I will try to put my thoughts on "paper" in the next day or so ... I have to get my fire extinguisher refilled and asbestos overalls back from the cleaners first - my husband and I have been at this for over 20 years and definately have opinions - that I would like to express gently as possible .... but now... off to work.... l'hitriot