Define to me "Perfect"

[aca_rev55]

What I want to know is that if God is perfect, how come he allows himself to be angry, saddened, disappointed in his "creations." If he's all powerful then why is he continuously p/o'd at the "infidels" which he himself created... why doesn't he just fix it?

And why did he allow to Holocaust to claim over 6 million Jews? Why did he allow Holy Roman Catholics to brutally slaughter over 20 million fellow Christians, Jews, Muslims etc. Hundreds of thousands of Irish, some Scottish while they were at it for spite. Did this please him or something? If he's perfect and all-powerful over every single thing, why does he let all this bull continue? Why doesn't he let certain people be happy for once in their lives? Aren't we all "his children" whether we believe in him or not? That's what I'm told, so why doesn't he freakin' treat me and others like he actually cares? Because he's angry with them for not believing in him, right? That's also what I'm told, in fact very very often. He can't be perfect if he gets angry or disappointed. He can't be perfect if he can't control his own creations who he has every little bit of power over. Every time I read about what his followers did "In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ," I get sickened... murdering priests in their own temples' ruins, with the pieces of glass from their broken windows doesn't sound appeasing to me at all.

Define to me "perfect." Define to me "all-loving." Tell me how God loves everyone, and how he tolerates murderous crimes commited in his name. Tell me how he gets angered when he is Perfect, how he gets disappointed when he is perfect... why he "orders" Catholics to run concentration camps similar to those of the Nazis, except even crueller means of execution. Christianity and it's forgiving, all-loving, all-powerful, perfect God has claimed more than 30 million lives over the passed couple centuries, all for one reason--different beliefs.

I want to know how this okay.

Also understand I'm not against Christians, or biased toward them or anything... Just confused on how this works out.

 

[CZzyzx41]

This might really set you off but it's all explained with two words.

FREE WILL

There's no way to explain this properly using abbreviated statements and it would take way too long than this forum allows to explain it properly. Our free will allows us to choose whether we will follow God or not. It allows us to choose whether we even believe God exists. He gave us that freedom and he does not step in and deny anyone of their free will. So some humans oppress others and doing that obviously upsets and angers God. He's our Father in Heaven. He loves us and wants to see us grow. So he has set up rules (as fathers tend to do) which when followed guide us to spiritually glory in Heaven when our time here on earth is done. If we didn't have free will and God stepped in everytime someone did something wrong, that person would never learn from their mistakes and/or future generations wouldn't learn from their mistakes. We're fallible human beings and often we don't ever learn from our mistakes OR others mistakes but just repeat history over and over. He's given us the blueprints then given us the free will whether to follow them or whether we even believe they exist at all. That's why bad things happen. That's why he doesn't step in.

As for perfect yes God is perfect. He gets angry and he gets sad and gets disappointed. These are not signs of imperfection. It's how one reacts to such emotions that imperfections can come in. People like to use the flood as a sign that God admitted He wasn't perfect. I don't believe that to be the case at all.

 

[repentandbelieve]

What I want to know is that if God is perfect, how come he allows himself to be angry, saddened, disappointed in his "creations." If he's all powerful then why is he continuously p/o'd at the "infidels" which he himself created... why doesn't he just fix it?

And why did he allow to Holocaust to claim over 6 million Jews? Why did he allow Holy Roman Catholics to brutally slaughter over 20 million fellow Christians, Jews, Muslims etc. Hundreds of thousands of Irish, some Scottish while they were at it for spite. Did this please him or something? If he's perfect and all-powerful over every single thing, why does he let all this bull continue? Why doesn't he let certain people be happy for once in their lives? Aren't we all "his children" whether we believe in him or not? That's what I'm told, so why doesn't he freakin' treat me and others like he actually cares? Because he's angry with them for not believing in him, right? That's also what I'm told, in fact very very often. He can't be perfect if he gets angry or disappointed. He can't be perfect if he can't control his own creations who he has every little bit of power over. Every time I read about what his followers did "In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ," I get sickened... murdering priests in their own temples' ruins, with the pieces of glass from their broken windows doesn't sound appeasing to me at all.

Define to me "perfect." Define to me "all-loving." Tell me how God loves everyone, and how he tolerates murderous crimes commited in his name. Tell me how he gets angered when he is Perfect, how he gets disappointed when he is perfect... why he "orders" Catholics to run concentration camps similar to those of the Nazis, except even crueller means of execution. Christianity and it's forgiving, all-loving, all-powerful, perfect God has claimed more than 30 million lives over the passed couple centuries, all for one reason--different beliefs.

I want to know how this okay.

Also understand I'm not against Christians, or biased toward them or anything... Just confused on how this works out.

Everything that happens is not according to Gods will. We can only honor Gody as we have a right conception of His character, government, and purposes, and act in accordance with them.

It is Satan's constant effort to misrepresent the character of God, the nature of sin, and the real issues at stake in the war against good and evil. At the same time he causes people to cherish false conceptions of God so that they regard Him with fear and hate rather than with love. The cruelty inherent in man's own character is attributed to the Creator. Thus the minds of men are blinded, and Satan secures them as his agents to war against God.

Satan is a deceiver and he falsifies the character of God, He has represented Him as a God who delights in the sufferings of His creatures, who is revengeful and implacable. It was Satan who originated the doctrine of eternal torment as a punishment for sin, because in this way he could lead men into infidelity and rebellion.

Satan leads men to look upon their Creator as the author of sin and suffering and death. Those whom he has thus deceived, imagine that God is hard and exacting. They regarded Him as watching to denounce and condemn, unwilling to receive the sinner so long as there was a legal excuse for not helping him. Nothing can be more dishonoring to God than these ideas.

Nothing can hurt your own soul more than to entertain such thoughts of our heavenly Father. Our whole spiritual life will catch a tone of hopelessness from such conceptions of God. They discourage all effort to seek God or to serve Him.

 

[Abbadon]

As we are imperfect, any attempt to define something perfect will fail.

 

[aca_rev55]

So like, I'm assuming God doesn't like Satan messing with people's minds... right? I'm assuming he doesn't like Satan at all.

So why doesn't he just get rid of him then? Why doesn't he just go *poof*, no more Satan... after all, he is all-powerful and in command of everything, right? And if everything that happens, God knows about before-hand, then why would he allow, at all, ever, for his own followers to slaughter and torture his OTHER followers (and some who were of other religions) in "His name." According to some of the soldiers in the crusades and what not, the Lord "commanded" them to. That's very conforting. I also believe if he were perfect, he wouldn't have to be angry all the time at the wretched humans we are. He gave us free will, but didn't he create the definition of the term itself as well? Why didn't he just make it to where everyone's free will would lead them to believe in him as opposed to others? Why not just make it to where everyone had free will, but everybody believed in him anyway? If he commands literally everything, literally--why does he allow himself to be mocked, ignored, angered, etc?

I fail to understand what positive things come out of this. It's not a child's fault if they're born into a Muslim family, Buddhist family, etc... so why should they be punished for something that they didn't even plan, in fact, something that He himself planned? I just don't get it. Was he pleased with his devout Christian Emperor Theodosius when he had his children executed for playing with pieces of stone from a ruined (Pagan) temple? Why does he let his own children be brutally murdered by his "most devoted Christian followers?" So why does he do nothing about it, in fact, why did he PLAN it?

 

[repentandbelieve]

Why does he let his own children be brutally murdered by his "most devoted Christian followers?" So why does he do nothing about it, in fact, why did he PLAN it?

In your opening post you acknowledged that God gets angry and disappointed. If everything that happened was according to His plan why does he get angry or disappointed.?

Consider what saying in veiw of how it applies to your own personal life.. If you decided to tell a lie, steal something, commit adultry, fornication or murder would you hold God accountable for something that you choose to do?

If your answer is no, then how can you hold God accountable for the sins of other people?

 

[aca_rev55]

In your opening post you acknowledged that God gets angry and disappointed. If everything that happened was according to His plan why does he get angry or disappointed.?

Consider what saying in veiw of how it applies to your own personal life.. If you decided to tell a lie, steal something, commit adultry, fornication or murder would you hold God accountable for something that you choose to do?

If your answer is no, then how can you hold God accountable for the sins of other people?

No I wouldn't because a) I don't believe in God, so that would be out of character for me to do.

And you can hold him accountable because a) He created the people and apparently everything that is going to happen God planned himself and is well aware of the outcomes, and b) he is all powerful and is supposed to love each and ever one of his children the same. So why would he "command" 40 million of his beloved children to be slaughtered like beasts, by his other children? Just... why would he do that? Does it please him or something?

 

[MoonlessNight]

I'd be interested to here anyone simply giving a definition of perfect, without bringing up examples of how the Christian God may or may not meet that definition of perfect. Does perfection imply that one is all-knowing? All-good? Does perfection allow for change? Does perfection have a different definition when referring to God than it does for us? Can a perfect being have desires? These are the sorts of things I think need to get sorted out. We all have some notion of perfection along the lines of "something really, really, really, good" but to talk about it sensibly we need a more precise definition than that. And despite the frequent arguments about whether or not God is perfect because he did this or that, I can't seem to recall one person actually detailing what perfection means.

And please no circular definitions. That is no saying something like "perfect means having the quality of perfection". And no simply posting what some on-line dictionary has to say. If one of their definitions works for you, fine, I don't really care, you can post that if you think that is what perfect really means. But what I mean is that I don't want to see someone posting all 10 or so definitions a given dictionary has for perfect. Just post the one you think is relevant to theological discussions.

 

[repentandbelieve]

in fact, why did he PLAN it?

I don't understand how you can hold God accountable for planning something when you don't believe that He exist.

 

[repentandbelieve]

I'd be interested to here anyone simply giving a definition of perfect, without bringing up examples of how the Christian God may or may not meet that definition of perfect. Does perfection imply that one is all-knowing? All-good? Does perfection allow for change? Does perfection have a different definition when referring to God than it does for us? Can a perfect being have desires? These are the sorts of things I think need to get sorted out. We all have some notion of perfection along the lines of "something really, really, really, good" but to talk about it sensibly we need a more precise definition than that. And despite the frequent arguments about whether or not God is perfect because he did this or that, I can't seem to recall one person actually detailing what perfection means.

And please no circular definitions. That is no saying something like "perfect means having the quality of perfection". And no simply posting what some on-line dictionary has to say. If one of their definitions works for you, fine, I don't really care, you can post that if you think that is what perfect really means. But what I mean is that I don't want to see someone posting all 10 or so definitions a given dictionary has for perfect. Just post the one you think is relevant to theological discussions.

"Perfection" means to be whole, complete and without flaw.

 

[repentandbelieve]

No I wouldn't because a) I don't believe in God, so that would be out of character for me to do.

And you can hold him accountable because a) He created the people and apparently everything that is going to happen God planned himself and is well aware of the outcomes, and b) he is all powerful and is supposed to love each and ever one of his children the same. So why would he "command" 40 million of his beloved children to be slaughtered like beasts, by his other children? Just... why would he do that? Does it please him or something?

So in other words, you are unable to hold God accountable for your own sins because you do not believe that He exist. If you don't believe that God exist why do acknowledge Him at all?..

You can only try to reason why God wouldn't do something "if" He does exist. Those seeking to have a true concept of the character of God must first believe that He is..

It is written that "the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom". You are seeking wisdom concerning the Lord ways when you do not have reverence for Him.

 

[Abbadon]

"Perfection" means to be whole, complete and without flaw.

However, these words are imperfect, made by imperfect humans. These cannot be used to describe perfect. Even the word "perfect" is imperfect and thus does not accurately describe perfection, like the word "infinity" is finite, and therefore cannot accurately describe infinity.

(Dude, your profile says you're 4. Come on, we know better than that.)

 

[Shane Roach]

No I wouldn't because a) I don't believe in God, so that would be out of character for me to do.

And you can hold him accountable because a) He created the people and apparently everything that is going to happen God planned himself and is well aware of the outcomes, and b) he is all powerful and is supposed to love each and ever one of his children the same. So why would he "command" 40 million of his beloved children to be slaughtered like beasts, by his other children? Just... why would he do that? Does it please him or something?

Do you believe if God did as apparently you think He should that it would fix anything?

As a Christian, I believe the Bible when it tells me that God is allowing evil in an act of patience, waiting for the fulness of time that will allow all that will ever come to Him to do so. The Bible also assures us that He has known all those that will be saves, and has had them in a book since before the foundation of the earth.

As has been pointed out earlier, the reason bad things happen is because certain beings - Satan, Adam, the rest of us - choose to sin. If you do not believe humans are actually at fault for the evil in this world, then as an atheist who do you blame?

 

[Shane Roach]

I'd be interested to here anyone simply giving a definition of perfect, without bringing up examples of how the Christian God may or may not meet that definition of perfect. Does perfection imply that one is all-knowing? All-good? Does perfection allow for change? Does perfection have a different definition when referring to God than it does for us? Can a perfect being have desires? These are the sorts of things I think need to get sorted out. We all have some notion of perfection along the lines of "something really, really, really, good" but to talk about it sensibly we need a more precise definition than that. And despite the frequent arguments about whether or not God is perfect because he did this or that, I can't seem to recall one person actually detailing what perfection means.

And please no circular definitions. That is no saying something like "perfect means having the quality of perfection". And no simply posting what some on-line dictionary has to say. If one of their definitions works for you, fine, I don't really care, you can post that if you think that is what perfect really means. But what I mean is that I don't want to see someone posting all 10 or so definitions a given dictionary has for perfect. Just post the one you think is relevant to theological discussions.

I am not understanding your question. You seem to be asking for a definition of perfect without reference to God and then going back and referencing how it would relate to God.

I have never been fond of threads like this one to be honest. As has been pointed out, if a perfect creator creates beings with choice, He is no longer at fault when they choose imperfection. It's fairly simple, and one either accepts that as fact or attempts to explain it away.

 

[MoonlessNight]

"Perfection" means to be whole, complete and without flaw.

Okay, but then perfection is completely determined by the thing that may or not be perfect. What I mean is, a perfect person would be very different than a perfect house or a perfect book. Then to know if something is or is not perfect we must intimately know the nature of thing itself. This might not be a problem for things such as people or tools or art forms where we either have had a great deal of experience with them or define their characteristics. But we can neither define our own God, and since there is only one God we cannot compare gods to determine which one is more complete. So, to me at least, it's not clear at all what it means for God to be perfect. Does God need to be good and evil to be complete, for instance? Is a flaw in God's work indicative of a flaw in God?

I like this definition, but I think we still must do some more work before being able to talk about what it means for God to be perfect.

 

[MoonlessNight]

I am not understanding your question. You seem to be asking for a definition of perfect without reference to God and then going back and referencing how it would relate to God.

I have never been fond of threads like this one to be honest. As has been pointed out, if a perfect creator creates beings with choice, He is no longer at fault when they choose imperfection. It's fairly simple, and one either accepts that as fact or attempts to explain it away.

You misunderstood what I meant. I do not want to talk about perfection without regard to God, in actuality I'm really only interested what it means for God to be perfect. If examples of other perfect things help to illustrate the concept so be it, but since the conversation is about God and perfection, perfection as it relates to God is most important.

But what the conversation in the thread had quickly turned into was a discussion of how God couldn't be perfect because he did this, or had that characteristic and so forth. So what I meant was that I only want to know what it would mean for God to be perfect, I don't really care at this stage whether God in actuality is perfect. Even if God is in fact imperfect we should be able to say what God would be like if he was perfect, and if he is perfect obviously we can discuss why. So in the discussion of perfection and how it relates to God it doesn't really matter in terms of defining things whether God is perfect or not in reality.

 

[Shane Roach]

Part of what it means for God to be perfect is He is the one that gets to define perfect, so there's another problem right there. If indeed God exists, it is not really a point of debate as to whether or not someone decides to agree with Him that He is perfect.

Having said that, the reason I find God to be a model of perfection is I compare the values in the Bible to the values of others I see around me. Obviously, this is something of a personal call on my part, and I think that is the fatal flaw of trying to define 'perfect' and then figure out if God really is or not. It's a matter of opinion.

 

[repentandbelieve]

Part of what it means for God to be perfect is He is the one that gets to define perfect, so there's another problem right there. If indeed God exists, it is not really a point of debate as to whether or not someone decides to agree with Him that He is perfect.

I agree, man does not set the standard for what is perfect, what is holy, or what is righteous. God does.

 

[aca_rev55]

To be angry or saddened is a flaw. And you're right, I don't believe... so I don't hold God accountable for it, I hold the religion itself accountable for it, but this a different matter we don't need to get into. I just want to know how people can consider their god to be perfect and all loving and caring and powerful, yet acknowledge that he would allow bull like what i've listed to go on, and do absolutely nothing about... not jack.

So basically, if you were ask me this question it would be hypothetical, I guess... because I don't believe any such god exists, but I'm asking those who DO believe how and why they feel the way they do.

 

[MoonlessNight]

I agree, man does not set the standard for what is perfect, what is holy, or what is righteous. God does.

Earlier you said that perfection means complete and without flaw. Does this mean that God is complete simply because God says he is complete? And without flaw for the same reason?