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PS. since you have nothing from scripture or tradition to support the nonsense about a royal and sacerdotal priesthood in Christianity, please don't spread it.
You don't think Christ is the Heiros?
Why won't you tell us about your house church movement?
No idea what you're talking about with a house church movement.
Regardless of what I think about Christ as heiros, you're trying to support your claim that in Christianity there is a royal and sacerdotal priesthood. You havn't done that.
It should be noted that the Old Testament jews also had a royal priesthood, and this did not disrupt the notion of the sacerdotal priesthood.
Do you understand that the priests of the Christian church are presbyters (from which the word priest comes)? I think you are misusing the word priest because of various english translations.
Where's the royal priesthood and sacerdotal priesthood in the OT Jews of Sinai/Mosaic Law to which you refer?
I'm not sure how you aren't seeing it.Still nothing.
Still nothing.
No idea what you're talking about with a house church movement.
Regardless of what I think about Christ as heiros, you're trying to support your claim that in Christianity there is a royal and sacerdotal priesthood. You havn't done that.
The 'condition' is the same for them becoming the chosen people "a peculiar treasure unto me above all people" as it is to becoming a kingdom of priests.Ex. 19:5-6 Now therefore, if ye will obey (hear per LXX) my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth [is] mine:
And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These [are] the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
What was the condition to that "kingdom of priests"?
Did they or did they not refuse to hear/obey?
The 'condition' is the same for them becoming the chosen people "a peculiar treasure unto me above all people" as it is to becoming a kingdom of priests.
Moses conveys God's words to them, and they heard, and obeyed. Next two verses:
7 So Moses came and called the elders of the people, and set before them all these words which the LORD had commanded him. 8 And all the people answered together and said, "All that the LORD has spoken we will do." And Moses reported the words of the people to the LORD.
Covenant made -- God spoke, Israel agreed, and Israel becamse God's chosen people and a nation of priests. No matter how many times they defaulted on their agreement to do the things the Lord commanded them, the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable (Romans 11:29).
The 'condition' is the same for them becoming the chosen people "a peculiar treasure unto me above all people" as it is to becoming a kingdom of priests.
Moses conveys God's words to them, and they heard, and obeyed. Next two verses:
7 So Moses came and called the elders of the people, and set before them all these words which the LORD had commanded him. 8 And all the people answered together and said, "All that the LORD has spoken we will do." And Moses reported the words of the people to the LORD.
Covenant made -- God spoke, Israel agreed, and Israel becamse God's chosen people and a nation of priests. No matter how many times they defaulted on their agreement to do the things the Lord commanded them, the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable (Romans 11:29).
In the OT we have 3 clear types (typologies) of priests:
1) The high priest
2) The Levitical priesthood
3) The priesthood of the nation
The NT types are fulfilled by:
1) Christ, who is the high priest
2) The ministerial, sacramental priesthood of the apostles
3) The priesthood of the believer.
-snip-
The Israelites did not hear God through the priestly office; they hear him through the prophets (who may be Levites but not necessarily). Read Luke's account of Lazarus and the rich man. When the rich man wants Lazarus to go to his father's house to warn his brothers, Lazarus doesn't tell him they can listen to the priests. He tells him that "They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them."Ex. 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey/hear my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth [is] mine: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These [are] the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
Ex. 20:18-19 And all the people saw the thunderings, and the lightnings, and the noise of the trumpet, and the mountain smoking: and when the people saw [it], they removed, and stood afar off.
And they said unto Moses, Speak thou with us, and we will hear: but let not God speak with us, lest we die.
At that point, they refused condition #1 to the covenant --- hear God. Instead, they asked Moses (and his line) to do their hearing, their priesting. Thus, God told Moses-
Ex. 28:1 And take thou unto thee Aaron thy brother, and his sons with him, from among the children of Israel, that he may minister unto me in the priest's office, [even] Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, Eleazar and Ithamar, Aaron's sons.
At that point, we have the priestly office (Levi) and the other 11 tribes called the children of Israel.
To be clear, they would still try to obey, but they would hear God through the priestly office, rather than as the nation of priests.
The Levitical/Israel type is not the shadow of Christianity. Melchizedek priesthood is.
1) High priest-Christ
2) Priesthood of nation (see Peter, Paul, John)
Read above. God's purpose at Sinai was never to speak directly to the people, and it had nothing to do with his covenant with them to be a kingdom of priests. The role of the Levitical priesthood was never to hear God for the people -- that belonged to Moses and the prophets.The reality is that the Melchizedek priesthood was to be what would happen to them after leaving Egypt, but, as already noted above, the people refused to hear God at Sinai; thus God separated out the Levite tribe to be the priests and the rest of them God called the children of Israel.
We are indeed a kingdom of priests. That does not exclude a ministerial priesthood who conducts sacred rites and offers sacrifice on behalf of the people. Romans 15. St. Paul's priestly ministry so that the offering of the Gentiles is acceptable.Christianity is unique of all the religions of the world. We are the priests. There's not some separate clergy/laity classes.
As you ponder these things, please keep firmly in mind that we have come to ZION, not Sinai.
PS. It is obvious, that some groups operate like Sinai. We are set free from bondage in "Egypt", led to the mountain, and then find out it's Sinai. Should not be. We obey/hear God as His priests on earth, having come to Zion.
According to Jewish sources, the seeking of the intercession of Rachel has been an accepted practice in the Jewish community since the time Joseph was sold into slavery. This is why I find it quite telling that neither Christ nor the apostles condemn the practice and Matthew tacitly approves it when he quote Jeremiah at the killing of the innocents.I haven't failed to show it because there has never been any need to try and teach against something that was never an excepted practice in the history of Scripture or the Jewish community.
I understand that....they are painted with broad brush strokes, which is why the whole Law can be summed up in loving G-d with your whole being and loving your neighbour like yourself.
Yep, I know that.
I have never claimed that silence on the subject is the only reason for not seeking help from departed Believers and the Heavenly Host...the Bible is actually rather specific indetainling what is and what isn't acceptable prractice concerning these things.
1. John 14:6Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
This goes beyond initial salvation and Jesus being the 'only way'...but is also true in every aspect of the way we approach the Father...you don't do so through Saints, Mary or Angels, only through Jesus.
2. Our Father who art in Heaven....we only go to G-d in Heaven, nobody else...Jesus was emphatic in the way this was taught.
3. The instructions for the Tabernacle and Temple were very specific, everything had to be done in accordance with what G-d revealed...now Jesus is our High-Priest in the Heavenly Tabernacle, and we can approach Him boldly and make our petitions known to Him. The Israelites couldn't go behind the backs of the levitical priesthood and try to access G-d on their own terms....similarly G-d has given us His Son...no one else, through whom we can have access to the throne.
He is talking to the living members of the Corinthian congregation about the ONE body of Christ, which elsewhere he identifies as consisting of those in heaven and those on earth.It is blatantly obvious from the context...He is specifically talking to the living members of the Corinthian congregation.
Agreed.
Good point.
Never thought of it quite like that....I get your point.
Ok I see this possibility.
Do you think a Believer departs this life to enter sorrows in Heaven because of the state of the world...do you think this is indicated as part of the inheritance in Heaven, leaving a physical world of pain and sorrows, to then enter a Heaven full of pain and sorrow because of mans sinfulness? Is there any indication of such a thing?
Rev 21:1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. 2And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away.”
Melchizedek is a shadow of the high priest, Christ. The one who offers bread and wine.
The priesthood of the believer is the fulfillment of the priesthood of the nation. That's why Peter quotes Exodus to the church.
The Levitical priesthood, where the ministerial priesthood offers sacrifice on behalf of the church is indeed fulfilled in Christianity, as noted by St. Paul in Romans 15.
Read above. God's purpose at Sinai was never to speak directly to the people, and it had nothing to do with his covenant with them to be a kingdom of priests. The role of the Levitical priesthood was never to hear God for the people -- that belonged to Moses and the prophets.
We are indeed a kingdom of priests. That does not exclude a ministerial priesthood who conducts sacred rites and offers sacrifice on behalf of the people. Romans 15. St. Paul's priestly ministry so that the offering of the Gentiles is acceptable.
We have indeed come to the new Jerusalem. Sinai was but a shadow (Hebrews 12). Let's remember that there, Isaiah says that God will take some of the Gentiles to be priests and Levites, i.e. the ministerial priesthood alongside the priesthood of believers.
Hmm, notes on 1 Peter 2:9You're mixing Sinai with Christianity. There's two separate different priesthoods. Sinai-Levi OR Zion-Melchizedek.
Peter isn't quoting Exodus. Paul isn't suggesting a Levitical priesthood offering up Gentiles. It's Christ who makes believers "set apart", sanctified as priests. It's what happens, part of the definition of Christian.
You can't make this stuff up.They refused to hear, thus God set apart the Levites.
Sinai is not the shadow, not the model. They are two separate unique covenants. No mixing allowed.
"Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar. For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and is in bondage with her children. But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all. ... So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free. "
"For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which [voice] they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more: ... But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, "
Two separate things. Take your pick between them: Sinai or Zion.
"Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, ..."
Hmm, missed this one. Yes, God said it, and I believe it.Narnia59 to the "rescue"
Do you really think Israel is the peculiar treasure above all people? Or this:
Mt. 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
-snip-
Sinai is the shadow. Shadows are an outline; not drastically different -- waiting to be 'filled in'.
3 OT shadows, fulfilled in 3 NT priesthoods.
1) the high priest -- fulfilled in the NT by Christ, the one and only priest like Melchizedech and high priest
2) the Levitical priesthood -- fulfilled by the ministerial priesthood -- Isaiah -- at the New Jerusalem I will take SOME OF THE GENTILES FOR PRIEST AND LEVITES and fulfilled in the ministry of the apostles
3) The priesthood of the nation -- fulfilled by the priesthood of believers
Between Sinai/New Jerusalem -- no contest -- I choose New Jerusalem in ALL its fulness and fulfillment, with ALL its fulfilled types of priesthood.
Wondering what would have happened to the Romans if they'd told St. Paul -- nope, we don't need your 'priestly' service.
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