Debunking Pre-Trib

Choose Wisely · Oct 10, 2011

RDoubleU said:
OK, well here's another question, how does one know when the tribulation has started? Who here on earth has the authority to say we have 7 years left? What takes place to confirm this??

We can confirm this........with a confirmation.

There must be a confirmation of the 7 year covenant by the Son of Perdition, beginning the 70th week of Daniel.

yeshuasavedme · Oct 10, 2011

RDoubleU said:
OK, well here's another question, how does one know when the tribulation has started? Who here on earth has the authority to say we have 7 years left? What takes place to confirm this??

Also: the first three and a half years begin with the two witnesses preaching in sackcloth in the streets of Jerusalem. Moses -in his own unregenerated, risen body of flesh- and Elijah -who has never died- are the two witnesses to Christ's death, resurrection, ascension, and glory. They get slain and resurrected and taken to heaven in their regenerated bodies, mid trib, and their death begins the last three and a half years, which is the time of God's wrath poured out on all the inhabitants of the earth. Those who are wise in those days count the days, exactly, until the end of the tribulation and the return to earth of Christ, to cleanse the earth and reign in glory.
The sign of the two witnesses appearing to preach is the first sign for Israel's last week of years, that Daniel wrote of. There have been no signs for Israel since Jesus died, was buried, rose, and ascended, in this Gospel age.

Biblewriter · Oct 10, 2011

zeke37 said:
i am remembeing that the length of the trib has been cut short, as explicitely stated in the gospels by Jesus...
for the elect's sake.
what was 1260 days, has been shortened.

This is pureinterpretation. The cutting short could just as well apply to what would happen if God did not step in. The scriptures explicitly define this period as 1260 days. There is not even on scripture to back up your interpretation that this 1260 days has been shortened.

days = years...a week (7 days)= 7 years.

it might not be as strait forward as you think.
iow, they might not be literal days.
they certainly were not in daniel.

if it were 7 years, not even the elect would be able to stand.
they too would be deceived as the rest of the world will be.

here is proof from daniel that weeks can = years.

24Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

25Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined. 27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

since rev is a counterpart to daniel, the same might be said about those 1260 days.

i understand the math fine.
Jesus taught that not even the angels in heaven know.

so, following that through, the angel in Daniel did not know...
he said what God told Him to say, for sure....but...
as Jesus also teaches, the time was cut short for the elect's sake.
and as we have just read in Daniel, time is not literal.

Ypu have wholly failed to demonstrate from Daniel that the times are not literal. The idea that a week equals seven days is not based on scripture. In the Old testament this word transla]ted week is applied to both periods of seven days and seven years.

really?

why dont you type the last day, into a search engine and see what comes up.
it may be hard for you to believe me, because we differ on the timing of the rapture,
so, sometimes i find it is better if someone figures something out for themselves.

because if the righteous are raised on the last day, it throws pre trib out the window completely...especially if that day is 1000 years long.

i agree.
however, when the Lord comes a gathering, there shall be time no longer.

5And the angel which I saw stand upon the sea and upon the earth lifted up his hand to heaven,
6And sware by him that liveth for ever and ever, who created heaven, and the things that therein are, and the earth, and the things that therein are, and the sea, and the things which are therein, that there should be time no longer:

Just as in the case in Daniel, your problem is in depending on English translations instead of looking at the original Greeor Hebrew. The literal statement in this case was that there should be no more delay, not that time would cease to exist.

the last day

Click to expand...

is the Millennium.

some are raised at it's beginning, and some are raised at it's end for judgement.

the last day could not be before the Millennium, right?
i think u'll agree.
so if the righteous are raised on the last day, then that cancells out pre trib all together.

see above.
i agree. not 24 hours. 1000 years.
but not 1007 years.

it can't be the last day, with 7 years to go before time is no longer.

I do not agree that the last day is the millennium. I have already demonstrated that it is a generic term for the end times., for events that take place both before and after the thousand years are both referenced to "the last day."

zeke37 · Oct 11, 2011

the righteous are raised on the last day.
after they are raised, the gathering to Christ spoken of in 1Thes4 happens.

zeke37 · Oct 11, 2011

12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )

21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25Behold, I have told you before.
26Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

zeke37 · Oct 11, 2011

RDoubleU said:
OK, well here's another question, how does one know when the tribulation has started? Who here on earth has the authority to say we have 7 years left? What takes place to confirm this??

no one knows for sure the exact time that the trib begins.
we shall know we are in it when there is a NWO set up, a literal world govmnt with a world wide currency.

this system fails.
WW3 is on it's way...defcom5.

then, Satan, the fallen angel makes his appearnace,
with supernatural abilities, signs and wonders, and fools the planet for the most part....
most Christians will think he is Jesus returned.

we shall know we are in the middle of the trib, when the fallen angel Satan, pretends to be Jesus
and declares himself God, in Jerusalem.

his coming will end the coming WW3, and the world unites under him for a while....
they including Christians, accept his kingdom, thinking he is everything that anyone has ever called God.

Hog Red · Oct 11, 2011

RDoubleU said:
OK, well here's another question, how does one know when the tribulation has started? Who here on earth has the authority to say we have 7 years left? What takes place to confirm this??

that's an easy one, the clock starts ticking when the Church is raptured, dont think anyone will not notice it but there will be all kinds of theories as to why we dissapeared including alien abduction, etc. An event like this will make it possible for the Anti Christ to step in with all the answers. nothing else in prophecy has to happen before the time of the gentiles is fulfilled. Be ready!

zeke37 · Oct 11, 2011

Biblewriter said:
This is pureinterpretation. The cutting short could just as well apply to what would happen if God did not step in. The scriptures explicitly define this period as 1260 days. There is not even on scripture to back up your interpretation that this 1260 days has been shortened.

the 1260 days are defined by an angel, in both Dan and Rev.
and Jesus said the angels do not know.
Jesus did say the length was shortened for the elect's sake.
and we have a pretty good clue as to how long it will be, with the length of Noah's flood and Rev9's 5th trump.

Ypu have wholly failed to demonstrate from Daniel that the times are not literal. The idea that a week equals seven days is not based on scripture. In the Old testament this word transla]ted week is applied to both periods of seven days and seven years.

i did not mean to suggest that weeks always means years.
but in this case, the "7" was clearly years.

from the Strong's

7620
shabuwa`
shaw-boo'-ah
or shabuan {shaw-boo'-ah}; also (feminine) shbu.ah {sheb-oo-aw'}; properly, passive participle of 'shaba`' (7650) as a denominative of 'sheba`' (7651); literal, sevened, i.e. a week (specifically, of years):--seven, week.

Just as in the case in Daniel, your problem is in depending on English translations instead of looking at the original Greeor Hebrew. The literal statement in this case was that there should be no more delay, not that time would cease to exist.

who says i don't look at the original greek or hebrew, or aramaic (as in some of Daniel)
i think you make too many presumptions.

I do not agree that the last day is the millennium.

if it's plural, days, then it's general..from Christ till Christ's return.

And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.

And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

if it's singular, day, its the last day, which last's 1000 years. from Christ's return till judgement

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

the Lord's Day.
the Day of the Lord.

1It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

10I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

I have already demonstrated that it is a generic term for the end times.,

do you think the saints are raised at some general unspecific generic time?
or do you think they are raised at the end of this dispensation?

since the raised dead actually live again on earth, i don't understand your pre trib gathering as being rational.

for events that take place both before and after the thousand years are both referenced to "the last day."

plural vs singular.
but again, if the yet future raising of the righteous dead, spoken about in the NT, were not raised in the first century then....
we are not speaking about any general time since Christ. we are speaking about when the saints will live again.

and then the rapture happens.

Biblewriter · Oct 11, 2011

zeke37 said:
the 1260 days are defined by an angel, in both Dan and Rev.
and Jesus said the angels do not know.
Jesus did say the length was shortened for the elect's sake.
and we have a pretty good clue as to how long it will be, with the length of Noah's flood and Rev9's 5th trump.

The fact that the words in question came out of the mouths of angels is immaterial. In denigrating thee statements because they were made by angels you are denigrating the absolute reliability of the Bible, the revealed Word of God. This is unacceptable in a professed Christian teacher.

But in your entire argument, you are completely missing (or ignoring) my point. The fact that Jesus said that no man or even angel knew the day or the hour of his coming to take us home, but through angels revealed the exact day of his coming in judgment is hard proof (that is, proof beyond rational debate) That the day of his coming for his own is not the same day as the day of his coming in judgment.

i did not mean to suggest that weeks always means years.

but in this case, the "7" was clearly years.

from the Strong's

7620
shabuwa`
shaw-boo'-ah
or shabuan {shaw-boo'-ah}; also (feminine) shbu.ah {sheb-oo-aw'}; properly, passive participle of 'shaba`' (7650) as a denominative of 'sheba`' (7651); literal, sevened, i.e. a week (specifically, of years):--seven, week.

who says i don't look at the original greek or hebrew, or aramaic (as in some of Daniel)
i think you make too many presumptions.

I said you are depending on the wording of English translations to reach conclusions that cannot be supported from the original Hebrew and Greek.

if it's plural, days, then it's general..from Christ till Christ's return.

if it's singular, day, its the last day, which last's 1000 years. from Christ's return till judgement

the Lord's Day.
the Day of the Lord.
1It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife.
2And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you.
3For I verily, as absent in body, but present in spirit, have judged already, as though I were present, concerning him that hath so done this deed,
4In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ,
5To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

do you think the saints are raised at some general unspecific generic time?
or do you think they are raised at the end of this dispensation?

since the raised dead actually live again on earth, i don't understand your pre trib gathering as being rational.

plural vs singular.
but again, if the yet future raising of the righteous dead, spoken about in the NT, were not raised in the first century then....
we are not speaking about any general time since Christ. we are speaking about when the saints will live again.

and then the rapture happens.

Your singular vs plural differentiation is interesting, but it is an interpretation, never specified in scripture.

And what scripture says that these raised dead will actually live on the earth? They will reign over it, but that scripture does not say they will live in it.

Chris81 · Oct 11, 2011

Hog Red said:
that's an easy one, the clock starts ticking when the Church is raptured, dont think anyone will not notice it but there will be all kinds of theories as to why we dissapeared including alien abduction, etc. An event like this will make it possible for the Anti Christ to step in with all the answers. nothing else in prophecy has to happen before the time of the gentiles is fulfilled. Be ready!

Why would anyone speculate as to why the Christians have disappeared from the Earth? At the time of the rapture, Christ will appear before the whole world and the living and the dead will rise to meet him in the clouds.

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 "For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."

The rapture occurs at Christ's Second Coming and he will make a very loud entrance when he returns that should make quite the impact for everyone to witness.

Dok · Oct 11, 2011

Rapture, 3.5 yrs Trib; 3.5 yrs Grt Trib; 2nd Coming; Armageddon; 1,000 yr reign Jesus on the Throne of David; satan loosed and condemned to hell; NEW heaven, NEW earth. Case closed.

ThatWhichIsnt · Oct 11, 2011

Dok said:
Rapture, 3.5 yrs Trib; 3.5 yrs Grt Trib; 2nd Coming; Armageddon; 1,000 yr reign Jesus on the Throne of David; satan loosed and condemned to hell; NEW heaven, NEW earth. Case closed.

You forgot the, "Thus says the Lord".

You have to do origami with Scripture to get this type of view.

zeke37 · Oct 11, 2011

Biblewriter said:
The fact that the words in question came out of the mouths of angels is immaterial. In denigrating thee statements because they were made by angels you are denigrating the absolute reliability of the Bible, the revealed Word of God. This is unacceptable in a professed Christian teacher.

i realize it is opinion...but i truly think it is on solid foundation.
ps. i edited the last post before i had realized you had answered.

Jesus said the angels do not know.
Jesus said the time was shortened for the elect's sake.
Jesus gave us the example of Noah, and his 5 month flood.
we read in Rev of a flood coming from the mouth of the dragon.
we read in Rev9 of a 5 month tribulation that is lead by Satan.

the elect could not survive the 1260 day tribulation
but they can survive a 5 month tribulation.

But in your entire argument, you are completely missing (or ignoring) my point. The fact that Jesus said that no man or even angel knew the day or the hour of his coming to take us home,

home is right here. we don't leave.

but through angels revealed the exact day of his coming in judgment is hard proof (that is, proof beyond rational debate)

what is that exact day then?

That the day of his coming for his own is not the same day as the day of his coming in judgment.

sure it is.

I said you are depending on the wording of English translations to reach conclusions that cannot be supported from the original Hebrew and Greek.

I say I am not. I use the Strong's every day.

Your singular vs plural differentiation is interesting, but it is an interpretation, never specified in scripture.

it is specified...

in the last days, plural, we have the description of the tribulation.

And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.

And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.

But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it.

in/on the last day, singular, we have the rising of the dead.

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

as for the day of the Lord, the Lord's day.

To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

And what scripture says that these raised dead will actually live on the earth? They will reign over it, but that scripture does not say they will live in it.

7But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
8But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.
9The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,
12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

no heaven to populate.

Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.

And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

1And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.

had they been in heaven for the Millennium, then the tabernacle would have already been with men.

zeke37 · Oct 11, 2011

Ez44 shows what the elect and what the seduced folks are up to in the Millennium....

10And the Levites that are gone away far from me, when Israel went astray, which went astray away from me after their idols; they shall even bear their iniquity.
11Yet they shall be ministers in my sanctuary, having charge at the gates of the house, and ministering to the house: they shall slay the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before them to minister unto them.
12Because they ministered unto them before their idols, and caused the house of Israel to fall into iniquity; therefore have I lifted up mine hand against them, saith the Lord GOD, and they shall bear their iniquity.
13And they shall not come near unto me, to do the office of a priest unto me, nor to come near to any of my holy things, in the most holy place: but they shall bear their shame, and their abominations which they have committed.
14But I will make them keepers of the charge of the house, for all the service thereof, and for all that shall be done therein.

15But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of my sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from me, they shall come near to me to minister unto me, and they shall stand before me to offer unto me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord GOD:
16They shall enter into my sanctuary, and they shall come near to my table, to minister unto me, and they shall keep my charge.
17And it shall come to pass, that when they enter in at the gates of the inner court, they shall be clothed with linen garments; and no wool shall come upon them, whiles they minister in the gates of the inner court, and within.
18They shall have linen bonnets upon their heads, and shall have linen breeches upon their loins; they shall not gird themselves with any thing that causeth sweat.

23And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.
24And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to my judgments: and they shall keep my laws and my statutes in all mine assemblies; and they shall hallow my sabbaths.
25And they shall come at no dead person to defile themselves: but for father, or for mother, or for son, or for daughter, for brother, or for sister that hath had no husband, they may defile themselves.
26And after he is cleansed, they shall reckon unto him seven days.
27And in the day that he goeth into the sanctuary, unto the inner court, to minister in the sanctuary, he shall offer his sin offering, saith the Lord GOD.
28And it shall be unto them for an inheritance: I am their inheritance: and ye shall give them no possession in Israel: I am their possession.

how about Job..

25For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

or Acts

9And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

or Rev...

9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

or Zec

1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

same wordage as 1Thes3 and 4...all the saints with Him

6And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

if Jerusalem is inhabbited in the Millennium, it is by the righteous...
because we note how Satan, and his, come against Jerusalem at Millennium's end.

If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Jesus is Coming back to inherrit David's Throne.

32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Jer23

1Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.

2Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.
3And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
4And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD.
5Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
7Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; 8But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

Isa2

2And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Isa11 shows good folks here in that time.

4But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
6The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
8And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

10And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
13The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim. 16And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

7And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

psalms

1The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right
hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

Biblewriter · Oct 12, 2011

You have shown many scriptures showing that there will be people living in the earth during the millennium. But you have not shown even one scripture saying that there will be resurrected people living in the earth at that time. The only scripture you have referenced that speaks of resurrected people speaks of them reigning in (but more correctly translated over) the earth at that time. But this one does not say they will be living in it.

zeke37 said:
Ez44 shows what the elect and what the seduced folks are up to in the Millennium....
10And the Levites that are gone away far from me, when Israel went astray, which went astray away from me after their idols; they shall even bear their iniquity.
11Yet they shall be ministers in my sanctuary, having charge at the gates of the house, and ministering to the house: they shall slay the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before them to minister unto them.
12Because they ministered unto them before their idols, and caused the house of Israel to fall into iniquity; therefore have I lifted up mine hand against them, saith the Lord GOD, and they shall bear their iniquity.
13And they shall not come near unto me, to do the office of a priest unto me, nor to come near to any of my holy things, in the most holy place: but they shall bear their shame, and their abominations which they have committed.
14But I will make them keepers of the charge of the house, for all the service thereof, and for all that shall be done therein.

15But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of my sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from me, they shall come near to me to minister unto me, and they shall stand before me to offer unto me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord GOD:
16They shall enter into my sanctuary, and they shall come near to my table, to minister unto me, and they shall keep my charge.
17And it shall come to pass, that when they enter in at the gates of the inner court, they shall be clothed with linen garments; and no wool shall come upon them, whiles they minister in the gates of the inner court, and within.
18They shall have linen bonnets upon their heads, and shall have linen breeches upon their loins; they shall not gird themselves with any thing that causeth sweat.

23And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.
24And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to my judgments: and they shall keep my laws and my statutes in all mine assemblies; and they shall hallow my sabbaths.
25And they shall come at no dead person to defile themselves: but for father, or for mother, or for son, or for daughter, for brother, or for sister that hath had no husband, they may defile themselves.
26And after he is cleansed, they shall reckon unto him seven days.
27And in the day that he goeth into the sanctuary, unto the inner court, to minister in the sanctuary, he shall offer his sin offering, saith the Lord GOD.
28And it shall be unto them for an inheritance: I am their inheritance: and ye shall give them no possession in Israel: I am their possession.

how about Job..
25For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

or Acts
9And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.
10And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

or Rev...
9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

or Zec
1Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.
2For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.
4And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
5And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.

same wordage as 1Thes3 and 4...all the saints with Him
6And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark:
7But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light.
8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

if Jerusalem is inhabbited in the Millennium, it is by the righteous...
because we note how Satan, and his, come against Jerusalem at Millennium's end.
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Jesus is Coming back to inherrit David's Throne.
32He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
33And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

Jer23
1Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the LORD.

2Therefore thus saith the LORD God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the LORD.
3And I will gather the remnant of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them, and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.
4And I will set up shepherds over them which shall feed them: and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the LORD.
5Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.
6In his days Judah shall be saved, and Israel shall dwell safely: and this is his name whereby he shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS.
7Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that they shall no more say, The LORD liveth, which brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; 8But, The LORD liveth, which brought up and which led the seed of the house of Israel out of the north country, and from all countries whither I had driven them; and they shall dwell in their own land.

Isa2
2And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of the LORD's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

Isa11 shows good folks here in that time.
4But with righteousness shall he judge the poor, and reprove with equity for the meek of the earth: and he shall smite the earth: with the rod of his mouth, and with the breath of his lips shall he slay the wicked.
6The wolf also shall dwell with the lamb, and the leopard shall lie down with the kid; and the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; and a little child shall lead them.
8And the sucking child shall play on the hole of the asp, and the weaned child shall put his hand on the cockatrice' den.

10And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious.
11And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
13The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim. 16And there shall be an highway for the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria; like as it was to Israel in the day that he came up out of the land of Egypt.

7And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

psalms
1The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right
hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
2The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.

zeke37 · Oct 12, 2011

the Word and Lord reign in Jerusalem.
Jerusalem is populated
the inner courst and outer courts are populated.
the sons of zadok in Ez are doing what they do, here.

that was a plethora of proof.

Biblewriter · Oct 13, 2011

zeke37 said:
the Word and Lord reign in Jerusalem.
Jerusalem is populated
the inner courst and outer courts are populated.
the sons of zadok in Ez are doing what they do, here.

that was a plethora of proof.

You showed people in the earth during the millennium. But you did not show that those people were resurrected, and not survivors of the tribulation or their descendants.

zeke37 · Oct 13, 2011

my point james was that Jerusalem is inhabbited.
the Word comes from Jerusalem and the Lord inhabbit Jerusalem.
the evil ones come against Jerusalem at Millennium's end.
that should settle who inhabbits it during the Millennium.

15But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of my sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from me, they shall come near to me to minister unto me, and they shall stand before me to offer unto me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord GOD:
16They shall enter into my sanctuary, and they shall come near to my table, to minister unto me, and they shall keep my charge.
17And it shall come to pass, that when they enter in at the gates of the inner court, they shall be clothed with linen garments; and no wool shall come upon them, whiles they minister in the gates of the inner court, and within.
18They shall have linen bonnets upon their heads, and shall have linen breeches upon their loins; they shall not gird themselves with any thing that causeth sweat.

23And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.
24And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to my judgments: and they shall keep my laws and my statutes in all mine assemblies; and they shall hallow my sabbaths.
25And they shall come at no dead person to defile themselves: but for father, or for mother, or for son, or for daughter, for brother, or for sister that hath had no husband, they may defile themselves.
26And after he is cleansed, they shall reckon unto him seven days.
27And in the day that he goeth into the sanctuary, unto the inner court, to minister in the sanctuary, he shall offer his sin offering, saith the Lord GOD.
28And it shall be unto them for an inheritance: I am their inheritance: and ye shall give them no possession in Israel: I am their possession.

9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

3And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

7And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

at the Lord's Coming, all flesh is changed into the same substance as the angels are made of.
there are no flesh bodies anymore. no animal flesh or people flesh.
Flesh and blood cannot co-exist with the Glorified Lord.
that is why we are ALL changed. 1Cor15.

the unfaithfull live in those bodies for the 1000 years....as do the faithfull.
we all live right here on earth, as this is where God sets up His Kingdom.

Biblewriter · Oct 14, 2011

zeke37 said:
my point james was that Jerusalem is inhabbited.
the Word comes from Jerusalem and the Lord inhabbit Jerusalem.
the evil ones come against Jerusalem at Millennium's end.
that should settle who inhabbits it during the Millennium.

15But the priests the Levites, the sons of Zadok, that kept the charge of my sanctuary when the children of Israel went astray from me, they shall come near to me to minister unto me, and they shall stand before me to offer unto me the fat and the blood, saith the Lord GOD:
16They shall enter into my sanctuary, and they shall come near to my table, to minister unto me, and they shall keep my charge.
17And it shall come to pass, that when they enter in at the gates of the inner court, they shall be clothed with linen garments; and no wool shall come upon them, whiles they minister in the gates of the inner court, and within.
18They shall have linen bonnets upon their heads, and shall have linen breeches upon their loins; they shall not gird themselves with any thing that causeth sweat.

23And they shall teach my people the difference between the holy and profane, and cause them to discern between the unclean and the clean.
24And in controversy they shall stand in judgment; and they shall judge it according to my judgments: and they shall keep my laws and my statutes in all mine assemblies; and they shall hallow my sabbaths.
25And they shall come at no dead person to defile themselves: but for father, or for mother, or for son, or for daughter, for brother, or for sister that hath had no husband, they may defile themselves.
26And after he is cleansed, they shall reckon unto him seven days.
27And in the day that he goeth into the sanctuary, unto the inner court, to minister in the sanctuary, he shall offer his sin offering, saith the Lord GOD.
28And it shall be unto them for an inheritance: I am their inheritance: and ye shall give them no possession in Israel: I am their possession.

9And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
10And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.

3And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

8And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be.
9And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.

7And I will make her that halted a remnant, and her that was cast far off a strong nation: and the LORD shall reign over them in mount Zion from henceforth, even for ever.

at the Lord's Coming, all flesh is changed into the same substance as the angels are made of.
there are no flesh bodies anymore. no animal flesh or people flesh.
Flesh and blood cannot co-exist with the Glorified Lord.
that is why we are ALL changed. 1Cor15.

the unfaithfull live in those bodies for the 1000 years....as do the faithfull.
we all live right here on earth, as this is where God sets up His Kingdom.

The last blue section of your post is pure interpretation, and a strained interpretation at that.

There is absolutely no scripture anywhere that says that all flesh will be changed when the Lord comes back to the earth. But this interpretation would make a great many explicitly stated prophecies impossible.

For a few examples:

The scriptures give detailed descriptions of a series of battles that will take place when the Lord returns. These battles could not take place as they are described if all flesh had been changed to spirit.

The scriptures contain a detailed account of the physical temple that will be built at that time, and of the animal sacrifices that will be offered in that temple. This could not take place if all flesh had been changed to spirit.

The scriptures clearly define the borders of the land of Israel during the millennium. These borders are not nearly large enough to contain all the holy individuals that have lived throughout all time.

The explicitly stated descriptions of the millennium include clear statements about people being married at that time, and about having children. This could not take place if all flesh had been changed to spirit.

Your system of interpretation contradicts most of the end time prophecies of the Bible.

zeke37 · Oct 14, 2011

Biblewriter said:
The last blue section of your post is pure interpretation, and a strained interpretation at that.

There is absolutely no scripture anywhere that says that all flesh will be changed when the Lord comes back to the earth.

45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
51Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

you were saying? not only does this "explicitely" say ALL, but it also disproves pre trib.

But this interpretation would make a great many explicitly stated prophecies impossible.

For a few examples:

The scriptures give detailed descriptions of a series of battles that will take place when the Lord returns. These battles could not take place as they are described if all flesh had been changed to spirit.

When the Lord steps foot on planet earth, all flesh will be changed and be able to last the entire Millennium.
The sword that comes from the Lord, is His Word.

the change of flesh is how a lion can lay with a lamb, or a child can play with a snake, or what ever other examples we have.

The scriptures contain a detailed account of the physical temple that will be built at that time, and of the animal sacrifices that will be offered in that temple. This could not take place if all flesh had been changed to spirit.

I don't think that is to be interpreted literally, for good reason. God is not going to re-instate the Law. We have Christ.
God hates animal sacrifices. He tells us what He wants instead. Your love and prayers.

The scriptures clearly define the borders of the land of Israel during the millennium. These borders are not nearly large enough to contain all the holy individuals that have lived throughout all time.

12Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

2And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

I think you will agree that since NJ is a cube, measuring 375x375x375 miles, which gives us a total area of more than 52 million cubic miles, that there is going to be plently of space.

The explicitly stated descriptions of the millennium include clear statements about people being married at that time, and about having children. This could not take place if all flesh had been changed to spirit.

it could if it were spiritual in nature, like when one becomes saved they become a spiritual child.

Your system of interpretation contradicts most of the end time prophecies of the Bible.

no it does not. Pre trib does tho.

have you had time to think on the rapture happening after the dead are raised on "the last day"

Debunking Pre-Trib

Forgiven

Senior Veteran

Senior Member

IMO...

IMO...

IMO...

Narrow Minded

IMO...

Senior Member

Servant to Christ

Dok

Guest

evidence trumps all

IMO...

IMO...

Senior Member

IMO...

Senior Member

IMO...

Senior Member

IMO...

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency