Debunking Calvinism with Scripture

chestertonrules · Apr 22, 2008

simonthezealot said:
I find it amusing catholics can't and won't accept much of the bible but cling to later developing traditions. And things written by uninspired early writers.

(((I find it amusing catholics can't and won't accept much of the bible but cling to later developing traditions. And things written by uninspired early writers.)))

Feel free to point out an example!

simonthezealot · Apr 22, 2008

chestertonrules said:
(((I find it amusing catholics can't and won't accept much of the bible but cling to later developing traditions. And things written by uninspired early writers.)))

Feel free to point out an example!

Call no man father.

or
Romans 3:28

or
ALL have sinned and fall short...

or Romans 11:6 compared to ccc 2010 and 2027

or 1 john 5:13 (knowledge of eternal life compared to ccc1036 and 2005

or Acts 4:12 compared to ccc846

John 19:30 and Mark 15:21-40
work of the cross is finished
compared to ccc1323 and 1382

Just a few of the many.

Rick Otto · Apr 22, 2008

quote=chestertonrules; I already provided you with scripture, which you ignore.

No I don't. You're projecting.
projecting

8: to attribute (one's own ideas, feelings, or characteristics) to other people or to objects <a nation is an entity on which one can project many of the worst of one's instincts Times Literary Supplement>intransitive verb

Do you deny that God wants all men to be saved?

No, but I don't confuse His desires with His will.

Do you deny that we are justified by works and not by faith alone?

I deny we are saved by works. I deny we are justified by faith at all.
Do you deny faith is a fruit of grace?

How can you deny these crystal clear words of scripture?

I don't. I deny your spin on them.

Rick Otto · Apr 22, 2008

chestertonrules said:
I find it amusing that Calvinists are incapable of accepting the bible, but they cling to the words of their scholars.

Why, when you reject the scriptures in favor of the words of your own scholars?

Rick Otto · Apr 22, 2008

quote=chestertonrules; More Calvinist evasions.

That was a trite dismissal, not explaining how the issue was evaded. It is an evasion itself, worse than ignoring him.

Did you learn anything from your ban?

chestertonrules · Apr 25, 2008

I ask: Do you deny that we are justified by works and not by faith alone?

You reply:

(((((I deny we are saved by works. I deny we are justified by faith at all.
Do you deny faith is a fruit of grace?)))))

You didn't answer the question. I know why!

((I don't. I deny your spin on them.)))

What spin?

1 Peter 1
17Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.

EACH MAN!!

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

THE WORLD!!

1 Timothy 2
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

ALL MEN!!

- Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."

EVERY MAN!!

- Matthew 6:14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you don not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

IF!!!

- James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by WORKS, and not by faith alone."

Whose works??

- John 3:36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

Who refuses? God or Man?

TraderJack · Apr 25, 2008

chestertonrules said:
You must reject these verses to be a Calvinist:

1 Peter 1
17Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.

Calvinists have no problem with that passage.

It's Rome's twisting of it to mean that the judgment of works is what determine whether one obtains heaven or not that is the grievious error.

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

THE WORLD!!

Jesus prays specifically for those whom the Father has given Him, and does NOT pray for the world.

John 17
6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. 8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.
9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.

Why didn't Jesus pray for the whole world?

TraderJack · Apr 25, 2008

chestertonrules said:
I ask: Do you deny that we are justified by works and not by faith alone?

What kind of works?

chestertonrules · Apr 25, 2008

simonthezealot said:
Call no man father.

or
Romans 3:28

or
ALL have sinned and fall short...

or Romans 11:6 compared to ccc 2010 and 2027

or 1 john 5:13 (knowledge of eternal life compared to ccc1036 and 2005

or Acts 4:12 compared to ccc846

John 19:30 and Mark 15:21-40
work of the cross is finished
compared to ccc1323 and 1382

Just a few of the many.

Does that make sense to you?

If you can't make your points in complete sentences, don't expect me to understand your short hand.

As to your first point which I do understand:

in the Bible the concept of fatherhood is not restricted to just our earthly fathers and God. It is used to refer to people other than biological or legal fathers, and is used as a sign of respect to those with whom we have a special relationship.

For example, Joseph tells his brothers of a special fatherly relationship God had given him with the king of Egypt: "So it was not you who sent me here, but God; and he has made me a father to Pharaoh, and lord of all his house and ruler over all the land of Egypt" (Gen. 45:8).

Job indicates he played a fatherly role with the less fortunate: "I was a father to the poor, and I searched out the cause of him whom I did not know" (Job 29:16). And God himself declares that he will give a fatherly role to Eliakim, the steward of the house of David: "In that day I will call my servant Eliakim, the son of Hilkiah . . . and I will clothe him with [a] robe, and will bind [a] girdle on him, and will commit . . . authority to his hand; and he shall be a father to the inhabitants of Jerusalem and to the house of Judah" (Is. 22:20–21).

This type of fatherhood not only applies to those who are wise counselors (like Joseph) or benefactors (like Job) or both (like Eliakim), it also applies to those who have a fatherly spiritual relationship with one. For example, Elisha cries, "My father, my father!" to Elijah as the latter is carried up to heaven in a whirlwind (2 Kgs. 2:12). Later, Elisha himself is called a father by the king of Israel (2 Kgs. 6:21).

A Change with the New Testament?

Some Fundamentalists argue that this usage changed with the New Testament—that while it may have been permissible to call certain men "father" in the Old Testament, since the time of Christ, it’s no longer allowed. This argument fails for several reasons.

First, as we’ve seen, the imperative "call no man father" does not apply to one’s biological father. It also doesn’t exclude calling one’s ancestors "father," as is shown in Acts 7:2, where Stephen refers to "our father Abraham," or in Romans 9:10, where Paul speaks of "our father Isaac."

Second, there are numerous examples in the New Testament of the term "father" being used as a form of address and reference, even for men who are not biologically related to the speaker. There are, in fact, so many uses of "father" in the New Testament, that the Fundamentalist interpretation of Matthew 23 (and the objection to Catholics calling priests "father") must be wrong, as we shall see.

Third, a careful examination of the context of Matthew 23 shows that Jesus didn’t intend for his words here to be understood literally. The whole passage reads, "But you are not to be called ‘rabbi,’ for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren. And call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven. Neither be called ‘masters,’ for you have one master, the Christ" (Matt. 23:8–10).

The first problem is that although Jesus seems to prohibit the use of the term "teacher," in Matthew 28:19–20, Christ himself appointed certain men to be teachers in his Church: "Go therefore and make disciples of all nations . . . teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you." Paul speaks of his commission as a teacher: "For this I was appointed a preacher and apostle . . . a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth" (1 Tim. 2:7); "For this gospel I was appointed a preacher and apostle and teacher" (2 Tim. 1:11). He also reminds us that the Church has an office of teacher: "God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers" (1 Cor. 12:28); and "his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers" (Eph. 4:11). There is no doubt that Paul was not violating Christ’s teaching in Matthew 23 by referring so often to others as "teachers."

Fundamentalists themselves slip up on this point by calling all sorts of people "doctor," for example, medical doctors, as well as professors and scientists who have Ph.D. degrees (i.e., doctorates). What they fail to realize is that "doctor" is simply the Latin word for "teacher." Even "Mister" and "Mistress" ("Mrs.") are forms of the word "master," also mentioned by Jesus. So if his words in Matthew 23 were meant to be taken literally, Fundamentalists would be just as guilty for using the word "teacher" and "doctor" and "mister" as Catholics for saying "father." But clearly, that would be a misunderstanding of Christ’s words.

chestertonrules · Apr 25, 2008

TraderJack said:
Calvinists have no problem with that passage.

It's Rome's twisting of it to mean that the judgment of works is what determine whether one obtains heaven or not that is the grievious error.

Jesus prays specifically for those whom the Father has given Him, and does NOT pray for the world.

Why didn't Jesus pray for the whole world?

Talk about twisting! You clearly are unfamililar with Catholic teaching on grace and justification.

Google: catechism grace

(((Jesus prays specifically for those whom the Father has given Him, and does NOT pray for the world.)))

Jesus is praying for his disciples in the verse you listed. Later in the same chapter:

20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.

TraderJack · Apr 25, 2008

chestertonrules said:
(((I find it amusing catholics can't and won't accept much of the bible but cling to later developing traditions. And things written by uninspired early writers.)))

Feel free to point out an example!

Here's a recent one:

ADDRESS OF POPE JOHN PAUL II
TO THE PARTICIPANTS IN THE COLLOQUIUM
ON «HOLINESS IN CHRISTIANITY AND ISLAM»

Thursday, 9 May 1985

Dear Friends,

It is a special joy for me to be able to welcome you, our guests who follow the faith of Islam, to Rome for the colloquium on "Holiness in Christianity and Islam". My fraternal greetings go as well to those Christians who have been taking part in the colloquium. As I have often said in other meetings with Muslims, your God and ours is one and the same, and we are brothers and sisters in the faith of Abraham.

Lumen Gentium:

Lumen Gentium said, as a matter of fact, he was in total agreement, confirming it:

Quote:
CHAPTER II THE PEOPLE OF GOD

16. Finally, those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways.[18] There is, first, that people to which the covenants and promises were made, and from which Christ was born according to the flesh (cf. Rom. 9 :4-5): in view of the divine choice, they are a people most dear for the sake of the fathers, for* the gifts of God are without repentance (cf. Rom. 11:29-29). But the* plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in* the first place amongst whom are the Moslems: these profess to hold* the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one,* merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day. Nor is God remote from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, since he gives to all men life and breath and all things (cf. Acts 17:2528), and since the Savior wills all men to be saved (cf. 1 Tim. 2:4).

"Nostra Aetate" states:

The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men.

Is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ the same as Alla
do you worhip "one and the same" god as the Muslims like JPII says you do?

chestertonrules · Apr 25, 2008

TraderJack said:
What kind of works?

Prayer, repentance, following God, caring for the least of us, etc.

Why does it matter to a Calvinist?

chestertonrules · Apr 25, 2008

TraderJack said:
Here's a recent one:
[/FONT]

Lumen Gentium:

"Nostra Aetate" states:

Is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ the same as Allah?

Muslims and Jews are following the God of Abraham, but they are not walking in the fullness of truth.

There is only one God, and they seek him.

This is not unbiblical.

Food for thought: 1 Timothy 4:9-11:

This is a faithful saying worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

TraderJack · Apr 25, 2008

chestertonrules said:
Talk about twisting! You clearly are unfamililar with Catholic teaching on grace and justification.

I am quite familiar with the Roman theory.

Answer the question.

You state that you are justified by faith + works.

What kind of works?

(((Jesus prays specifically for those whom the Father has given Him, and does NOT pray for the world.)))

Jesus is praying for his disciples in the verse you listed. Later in the same chapter:

20"My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, 21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you.

Jesus was praying for all those whom the Father had given Him, both the disciples AND those who would follow, and prayed for them and them alone.

Why didn't Jesus pray for the entire world?

Quit evading the question.

TraderJack · Apr 25, 2008

chestertonrules said:
Muslims and Jews are following the God of Abraham, but they are not walking in the fullness of truth.

There is only one God, and they seek him.

This is not unbiblical.

Romans 3

For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin.
10 As it is written:

 There is none righteous, no, not one;
11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
12 They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.[b]
13  Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit

The Apostolic Tradition recorded and preserved in the Scriptures is clear that there is "none who seeks after God", not even one.

Food for thought: 1 Timothy 4:9-11:
This is a faithful saying worthy of all acceptance. For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

If God is the savior of all men without exception, then why aren't all men saved?

cygnusx1 · Apr 25, 2008

chestertonrules said:
Exactly.

Our God is different from the God that Calvinist believe in.

well seeing as all Calvinists believe in Jesus Christ ; God the Father , God the Son and God the Holy ghost , and Sola Scriptura then your statement makes no sense , unless you have rejected the God of scripture and predicated your own.

cygnusx1 · Apr 25, 2008

chestertonrules said:
You must reject these verses to be a Calvinist:

1 Peter 1
17Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.

EACH MAN!!

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

THE WORLD!!

1 Timothy 2
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

ALL MEN!!

- Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."

EVERY MAN!!

- Matthew 6:14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you don not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

IF!!!

- James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by WORKS, and not by faith alone."

Whose works??

- John 3:36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

Who refuses? God or Man?

ahhhhhh , the olde proof texting method , good for those who never look at scriptures that contradict their position , but hey who wants to look at all scripture when bias is the way to go ........ next stop I suggest you read Augustine , Calvin's fav author.

Iollain · Apr 25, 2008

chestertonrules said:
You must reject these verses to be a Calvinist:

1 Peter 1
17Since you call on a Father who judges each man's work impartially, live your lives as strangers here in reverent fear.

EACH MAN!!

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

THE WORLD!!

1 Timothy 2
3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

ALL MEN!!

- Romans 2:6-7 "For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life."

EVERY MAN!!

- Matthew 6:14 "For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father also will forgive you; but if you don not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

IF!!!

- James 2:24 "You see that a man is justified by WORKS, and not by faith alone."

Whose works??

- John 3:36 The one who believes in the Son has eternal life, but the one who refuses to believe in the Son will not see life; instead, the wrath of God remains on him.

Who refuses? God or Man?

you've got to look at God's foreknowledge though, He knows who His are.......already, and they are the Elect, the ones Jesus prayed for. We cannot see His foreknowledge and we have to assume that everyone is.

TraderJack · Apr 25, 2008

Originally Posted by TraderJack

What kind of works?

chestertonrules said:
Prayer, repentance, following God, caring for the least of us, etc.

How do those works save you?

TraderJack · Apr 25, 2008

chestertonrules said:
Exactly.

Our God is different from the God that Calvinist believe in.

Is your God different from the god that Muslims believe in?

ADDRESS OF POPE JOHN PAUL II
TO THE PARTICIPANTS IN THE COLLOQUIUM
ON «HOLINESS IN CHRISTIANITY AND ISLAM»

Thursday, 9 May 1985

Dear Friends,

It is a special joy for me to be able to welcome you, our guests who follow the faith of Islam, to Rome for the colloquium on "Holiness in Christianity and Islam". My fraternal greetings go as well to those Christians who have been taking part in the colloquium. As I have often said in other meetings with Muslims, your God and ours is one and the same, and we are brothers and sisters in the faith of Abraham.

JPII says they are "one and the same".

Rather ironic that Roman Catholics believe in a God that is "one and the same" as the Muslims who deny the Deity of Christ, deny the Triune Nature of God, deny the Resurrection of Christ, deny the Atonement of Christ, yet say the following of Calvinist Christians:

Our God is different from the God that Calvinist believe in.

So one has to ask what kind of god denies; the Deity of Christ, the Triune Nature of God, the Resurrection of Christ and the Atonement of Christ?

Debunking Calvinism with Scripture

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have you not read,what God has spoken unto you?

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Jacob the twister.....

Jacob the twister.....

Jer 18:2-6

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