Debate Preparation

[laptoppop]

PLEASE NOTE!!! This thread is for creationists to talk about the debate between busterdog and Willtor. It is NOT the place to criticize these arguments from a non YEC/OEC perspective. There is already a thread in OT you can use for that. Posts which violate this will be reported -- PLEASE respect this.

Topic: Whether the Scriptures should be applied to the question of the legitimacy of evolution. Note - the particulars of evolution (whether it is supported by other means of knowledge) is not at issue; the application of biblical support/opposition or lack thereof is the matter at hand.

Busterdog - It is appropriate to use the Scriptures to support or oppose evolution because they speak to such matters authoritatively.
Willtor - Regardless of whether the Scriptures speak to the origin of the species, only sense and reason should be used to support or oppose evolution.

Here are some thoughts you might find helpful:
Who wrote the Scriptures? God or men? What is the meaning of inspiration? Are the writings authoritative in all things, or just spiritual things? What evidence do we have that the Scriptures are anything but spiritual stories told by men?

Is it legitimate to create two classes of “truth” – a spiritual one and a physical one?

It is appropriate to believe and trust the Scriptures on all topics because
1) God caused exactly what He wanted to be written
All scripture is inspired (God-Breathed)…. (I Tim)
No prophecy is a matter of private interpretation, but men spake as moved by God (something like that – II Peter, I think)
2) God proved that the Scriptures went beyond the knowledge of the writers over and over
a) with prophecies – both near term prophecies (such as Moses and Pharoah) and far term prophecies (messianic prophecies of Jesus)
b) with knowledge beyond the day.
aa)God called the people to monotheism, not polytheism like the religions of the day
bb) The levitical laws were written down by Moses, a person trained in Egyptian learning – yet they have no resemblance to Egyptian “medicine”, but rather reflect *MODERN* ideas of germs, sterilization, food spoilage, etc. The book “none of these diseases” details many of the things that the Hebrews were protected from if they obeyed the Law of God. HIS Law, with HIS knowledge, not mans. It was not limited to human understanding.
3) God does not lie. This is not to say that the scriptures may not use word pictures, etc., but if it is presented as true history, it is.
4) God is VERY concerned about Truth. Over and over and over, He had the people raise various memorials to remember actual physical events. “See these 12 stones? This is where it happened!” “See this well? This is where he had that dream!” etc.
5) God never implies that there are two truths, a spiritual one and a physical one. Instead, there is ONE truth, where the spiritual can overrule and be more important that the physical. For example, elisha’s servant seeing the army of God surrounding the army of men. One God. One Truth.
6) Note that throughout Psalms the Scriptures are called the Word of God. Thy Word, etc. The statements early in John about Jesus being the Word of God are not universal interpretation guidelines.
7) Note Jesus’ statements about coming to fulfill the Law, and how even the jot and tittle (tiny marks) would be preserved.
8) God knows everything. He loves us. He is concerned about Truth. He does not lie or deceive. He has often said things in conflict with the culture of the day.

 

[theIdi0t]

PLEASE NOTE!!! This thread is for creationists to talk about the debate between busterdog and Willtor. It is NOT the place to criticize these arguments from a non YEC/OEC perspective. There is already a thread in OT you can use for that. Posts which violate this will be reported -- PLEASE respect this.

Here are some thoughts you might find helpful:
Who wrote the Scriptures? God or men? What is the meaning of inspiration? Are the writings authoritative in all things, or just spiritual things? What evidence do we have that the Scriptures are anything but spiritual stories told by men?

Is it legitimate to create two classes of “truth” – a spiritual one and a physical one?

It is appropriate to believe and trust the Scriptures on all topics because
1) God caused exactly what He wanted to be written
All scripture is inspired (God-Breathed)…. (I Tim)
No prophecy is a matter of private interpretation, but men spake as moved by God (something like that – II Peter, I think)
2) God proved that the Scriptures went beyond the knowledge of the writers over and over
a) with prophecies – both near term prophecies (such as Moses and Pharoah) and far term prophecies (messianic prophecies of Jesus)
b) with knowledge beyond the day.
aa)God called the people to monotheism, not polytheism like the religions of the day
bb) The levitical laws were written down by Moses, a person trained in Egyptian learning – yet they have no resemblance to Egyptian “medicine”, but rather reflect *MODERN* ideas of germs, sterilization, food spoilage, etc. The book “none of these diseases” details many of the things that the Hebrews were protected from if they obeyed the Law of God. HIS Law, with HIS knowledge, not mans. It was not limited to human understanding.
3) God does not lie. This is not to say that the scriptures may not use word pictures, etc., but if it is presented as true history, it is.
4) God is VERY concerned about Truth. Over and over and over, He had the people raise various memorials to remember actual physical events. “See these 12 stones? This is where it happened!” “See this well? This is where he had that dream!” etc.
5) God never implies that there are two truths, a spiritual one and a physical one. Instead, there is ONE truth, where the spiritual can overrule and be more important that the physical. For example, elisha’s servant seeing the army of God surrounding the army of men. One God. One Truth.
6) Note that throughout Psalms the Scriptures are called the Word of God. Thy Word, etc. The statements early in John about Jesus being the Word of God are not universal interpretation guidelines.
7) Note Jesus’ statements about coming to fulfill the Law, and how even the jot and tittle (tiny marks) would be preserved.
8) God knows everything. He loves us. He is concerned about Truth. He does not lie or deceive. He has often said things in conflict with the culture of the day.

One thing to remember in a debate, is that it's not so much the matter of what you bring to the table, but how your opponent will argue against what you brought.

So, perhaps it would be a good thing to figure out how Willtor and other TEs would argue some of these points. Because some of them can easily be untied with a few sentences. Particularly such claims as "God never implies that there are two truths a spiritual and a physical one" with one verse from Paul about the spiritual body and the natural body could dismiss. The physical truth being the existence of the spiritual body, and the natural truth being the existence of the physical body.

Also the notion of truth. Allegory does not equal lie, and literal does not equal truth. If Genesis is intended to be taken allegorically, and it is taken allegorically it would be the truth, and vice versa. The truth in the the story of the good Samaritan, the Prodigal son, and the Rich man and Lazarus, lies not in literal characters but the meaning behind the characters.

What you should be arguing, if you believe Genesis is to be taken literally is how the meaning behind genesis is compromised by taking the story as allegorical.

I'm not trying to debate, I'm only trying to help you all prepare, and I'm looking forward to a lively and healthy debate.

 

[laptoppop]

PLEASE NOTE!!! This thread is for creationists to talk about the debate between busterdog and Willtor. It is NOT the place to criticize these arguments from a non YEC/OEC perspective. There is already a thread in OT you can use for that. Posts which violate this will be reported -- PLEASE respect this.

 

[Galle]

PLEASE NOTE!!! This thread is for creationists to talk about the debate between busterdog and Willtor. It is NOT the place to criticize these arguments from a non YEC/OEC perspective. There is already a thread in OT you can use for that. Posts which violate this will be reported -- PLEASE respect this.

OVERSIZED, ITALISIZED, UNDERLINED, BOLDED, TEXT IS CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL!

But seriously...since you've admitted that there's a OT thread...wouldn't it make more sense to use that? Creationists are more than welcome there.

 

[laptoppop]

No, the OT thread is for after-debate commentary. This thread is for CREATIONISTS to do pre-debate preparation. Please -- can't you show some control and leave this thread alone?

 

[mark kennedy]

I'm just wondering if the Scriptures as historically reliable will be an issue. If it sinks into the pedantic generalities these discussions are famous for, then, get ready for circular arguments ad infinitum.

See you all in the peanut gallery.

 

[busterdog]

Pop,

I read through your list of stuff, which was a good reference for some issues to go through. Some stuff I didn't know.

I have to say that I have some reluctance about this. Willtor however is a great guy with a good heart. He has healing in mind as one byproduct of this thing. So, its worth honoring that.

And also, feeling unequal to the task is generally a very good place to start.

The Church in many ways is disappointing. CF is an example. The presence we expect we feel little. The Raima Word we are to live by comes so seldom. There are some big promises about the presence of God, but also many stories about how people look and look and just never see.

Isn't that what we want? To finally be out of the bushes and in the presence of the Lord, to see face to face?

This thread is about seeing and hearing. Let's pray that the Lord is here and that all here will see Him.

If there is work and convincing to do, it is the Lord's job, not mine. No need to rush what we pray for. We simply put it in the right hands.

Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.

Luk 24:15 And it came to pass, that, while they communed [together] and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
Luk 24:16 But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.

Jhn 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?

Mat 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.

Luk 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

Rev 1:7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they [also] which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.


Isa 28:16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner [stone], a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste.

 

[Gwenyfur]

This thread has been cleaned of the off topic derailment.

Apologies for any inconvenience.


Carry On.