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Discussion and Debate
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Ethics & Morality
Debate on the polytheistic past of monotheism
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<blockquote data-quote="Quid est Veritas?" data-source="post: 71556957" data-attributes="member: 385144"><p>Look, Josephus mentions that Manetho, the Hellenistic native Egyptian historian, wrote of a figure Osarseph, who was a Heliopolitan priest. This Osarseph led a group of slaves and peasants out of Egypt after making trouble for a while, and settled in Canaan. Josephus connected this to the Exodus account. Manetho's own work is lost, except for a few quotations and allusions.</p><p>We have never found any corroboration for this from Egyptian written history, nor does an Exodus narrative fit anywhere in the traditional timelines of Egyptian history.</p><p></p><p>The period of Aten worship ends with Tutankhaten ending it, and becoming Tutankhamen. He made peace with the traditional gods, and his successor Ay, started the process of trying to erase it completely from Egyptian history. There is no record of further Monotheism of this type in Egypt, nor of their moving to Canaan. With the biblical account and Manetho's, it does give one pause, but a connection here is highly suppositional, and has almost no support beyond conjecture.</p><p></p><p>On alternative chronologies of Egyptian history, an Exodus is quite possible. After all, the Egyptian timeline is largely anchored on Shisaq being Seshonk I and a rising of Sirius, so is not too definite. Even a limited scaled-down Exodus on the traditional timeline is possible, but no definitive evidence thereof has come to light, only conjectures on equivocal and debatable points can be made to this effect.</p><p></p><p></p><p>It is an interesting hypothesis, but the whole idea is that as specialisation takes place, that monotheism is discarded in the process, so that few successor mythologies have anything but susurrations of it.</p><p></p><p></p><p>The northwest Semitic languages develop from proto-Semitic, just like Akkadian. They are not descendants of Akkadian, but a language from which both ultimately came. It is the same as in the Indo-European languages, where proto-Greek, Hittite, proto-Slavic, Indo-Iranian, etc., all descend from Proto-Indo-European. The Romance languages like French and Italian, all descended from Latin as the common origin of all; and in like manner, all the Semitic languages descend from proto-Semitic, be they South, West or East Semitic subgroups. Akkadian belongs to the East Semitic group, so the West Semitic languages like Amorite, Hebrew or Phoenician, are its cousins, not its descendants. Sumerian is a language isolate, with no descendant language, although it influenced these other languages. Ask your linguist friend, he will explain this better than I can, I am sure, but the West Semitic languages are not descendants of Akkadian.</p><p></p><p></p><p>No, I don't know what you mean. Egypt spoke a Afro-Asiatic language, related to the Semitic languages, but again not of the same stock, being even a further step back. The Semitic languages and Egyptian had a common ancestor somewhere. It may be related to a fusion of early proto-Afro-Asiatic speakers and Nilo-Saharan speakers, is this what you are referring to?</p><p></p><p></p><p>I don't see how you agree and disagree, for what you wrote here seems to agree with my understanding as well.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Please do. What Hittite ritual acts as parallel to the Scapegoat? I am very interested in this as the Hittites are Indo-European and any such parallel can then be extended to their kin mythologies of Greek, Roman, Indian, Iranian, Norse, Slavic, Celtic, etc. Such exhaustive parallels can be fascinating such as the associations of various gods with Dyaus Piter or themes like the Triple Death in comparative Indo-European Mythology.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I looked up any geological evidence for the Persian gulf being fertile land, and to my surprise it is theorised it had been at the end of the last glacial Maximum. That however is thousands and thousands of years before the start of Sumer, about 14500 years ago.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>On Salvation, most agree that it is through Jesus Christ. The specific mechanism isn't that important to my mind, but I have often thought that the various forms of Atonement aren't mutually exclusive.</p><p></p><p>Most such foetuses you mentioned, abort spontaneously anyway. I am not going to debate Abortion with you, but I am opposed to abortion of healthy foetuses, myself. Abortion on and for strict medical criteria, such as chromosomal defects or the health of the mother, I have no problem with. You had to bring something on Ethics and Morality in here, to justify this forum choice?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Well, I see Christianity as starting in Jerusalem of course, not Rome. That is 2000 years of development you are asking about, so could you be more specific?</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Quid est Veritas?, post: 71556957, member: 385144"] Look, Josephus mentions that Manetho, the Hellenistic native Egyptian historian, wrote of a figure Osarseph, who was a Heliopolitan priest. This Osarseph led a group of slaves and peasants out of Egypt after making trouble for a while, and settled in Canaan. Josephus connected this to the Exodus account. Manetho's own work is lost, except for a few quotations and allusions. We have never found any corroboration for this from Egyptian written history, nor does an Exodus narrative fit anywhere in the traditional timelines of Egyptian history. The period of Aten worship ends with Tutankhaten ending it, and becoming Tutankhamen. He made peace with the traditional gods, and his successor Ay, started the process of trying to erase it completely from Egyptian history. There is no record of further Monotheism of this type in Egypt, nor of their moving to Canaan. With the biblical account and Manetho's, it does give one pause, but a connection here is highly suppositional, and has almost no support beyond conjecture. On alternative chronologies of Egyptian history, an Exodus is quite possible. After all, the Egyptian timeline is largely anchored on Shisaq being Seshonk I and a rising of Sirius, so is not too definite. Even a limited scaled-down Exodus on the traditional timeline is possible, but no definitive evidence thereof has come to light, only conjectures on equivocal and debatable points can be made to this effect. It is an interesting hypothesis, but the whole idea is that as specialisation takes place, that monotheism is discarded in the process, so that few successor mythologies have anything but susurrations of it. The northwest Semitic languages develop from proto-Semitic, just like Akkadian. They are not descendants of Akkadian, but a language from which both ultimately came. It is the same as in the Indo-European languages, where proto-Greek, Hittite, proto-Slavic, Indo-Iranian, etc., all descend from Proto-Indo-European. The Romance languages like French and Italian, all descended from Latin as the common origin of all; and in like manner, all the Semitic languages descend from proto-Semitic, be they South, West or East Semitic subgroups. Akkadian belongs to the East Semitic group, so the West Semitic languages like Amorite, Hebrew or Phoenician, are its cousins, not its descendants. Sumerian is a language isolate, with no descendant language, although it influenced these other languages. Ask your linguist friend, he will explain this better than I can, I am sure, but the West Semitic languages are not descendants of Akkadian. No, I don't know what you mean. Egypt spoke a Afro-Asiatic language, related to the Semitic languages, but again not of the same stock, being even a further step back. The Semitic languages and Egyptian had a common ancestor somewhere. It may be related to a fusion of early proto-Afro-Asiatic speakers and Nilo-Saharan speakers, is this what you are referring to? I don't see how you agree and disagree, for what you wrote here seems to agree with my understanding as well. Please do. What Hittite ritual acts as parallel to the Scapegoat? I am very interested in this as the Hittites are Indo-European and any such parallel can then be extended to their kin mythologies of Greek, Roman, Indian, Iranian, Norse, Slavic, Celtic, etc. Such exhaustive parallels can be fascinating such as the associations of various gods with Dyaus Piter or themes like the Triple Death in comparative Indo-European Mythology. I looked up any geological evidence for the Persian gulf being fertile land, and to my surprise it is theorised it had been at the end of the last glacial Maximum. That however is thousands and thousands of years before the start of Sumer, about 14500 years ago. On Salvation, most agree that it is through Jesus Christ. The specific mechanism isn't that important to my mind, but I have often thought that the various forms of Atonement aren't mutually exclusive. Most such foetuses you mentioned, abort spontaneously anyway. I am not going to debate Abortion with you, but I am opposed to abortion of healthy foetuses, myself. Abortion on and for strict medical criteria, such as chromosomal defects or the health of the mother, I have no problem with. You had to bring something on Ethics and Morality in here, to justify this forum choice? Well, I see Christianity as starting in Jerusalem of course, not Rome. That is 2000 years of development you are asking about, so could you be more specific? [/QUOTE]
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