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Debate - On Confusion of the term "mother of God" in reference to the Blessed Virgin

ViaCrucis

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So I've noticed a fairly common trend over the years. Almost inevitably when the issue of Mary as the Theotokos or mother of God is raised someone will protest by arguing that Mary can't be the mother of God because Mary didn't give birth to God the Father or the Holy Spirit, or that Mary didn't exist before God, or that Mary isn't divine. And, naturally, when this protest is raised our response is to correct that misconception:

By saying Mary is the mother of God we do not mean that she gave birth to God the Father or the Holy Spirit, we do not mean that she existed before God, and we certainly don't mean that Mary is divine. What we mean by it is very explicit and very simple: Mary's offspring, our Lord Jesus Christ, is God. Since Mary is the mother of Jesus, since she gave birth to Jesus, Mary is therefore the mother of God because her Child, Jesus, is God.

That really should be the end of the discussion, misconception has been corrected. And yet, almost without exception, that doesn't resolve the dispute. The one who protests will continue to insist that Mary can't be the mother of God because she didn't give birth to the Father or the Holy Spirit, or that she didn't exist before God, or that she isn't divine. Yet those things have never been part of what it means to say she is God's mother, it has never meant anything other than that she is Jesus' mother, and that Jesus is God in the flesh.

So then one might argue, "Even if that isn't what is meant, someone might think that is what is meant, and so the risk is great." But that seems to be a failure of a response to me, for one I am unaware of this having ever been a legitimate problem in all the years of Christian history, one would think that if this were a legitimate risk that it would have been something needing to be addressed in the last two millennia but that doesn't seem to be the case. Further, if that concept of "risk" were applied to some other ideas we might see how it fails as an argument, let me provide an example:

Saying Jesus is God. This statement goes with little controversy in the mainstream of Christian churches (only out-and-out heretics say otherwise) and yet we could say this is a risky problem because it could, potentially, lead one to believe that Jesus is God the Father. And, indeed, that has been a legitimate error many have believed over the centuries, and yet the risk of error is accepted because we acknowledge that to address such risk and error is to correct it--we point out that, no, Jesus is not God the Father, He is the Son, and it is as the Son that He is God. The error is corrected, and we continue to confess the Deity of Christ.

And so when we have a statement that could potentially be misinterpreted to heresy and error, we do not throw it away, we explain what it actually means, we correct the error, and we continue to employ its use because, in its proper use, is true.

This is precisely how we go about addressing potential error when it comes to saying Mary is Theotokos and mother of God, it means something specific and is true in its intended meaning, and when someone is misinformed about its meaning we correct it, and if someone falls into error concerning it, we address it and correct that as well.

So where, therefore, is the legitimate protest against the theological truth that Mary, as the mother of our Lord Jesus who is God and man, is God's mother? There is none.

If the protest is due to confusion, it has been corrected.
If the protest is due to risk, we address the risk and correct it if it should appear.
If the protest is due, however, to heresy--that one does not believe Jesus is truly God, indeed the very God-Man--then that is where we have a legitimate problem, and a much bigger concern than the protest as the one who protests has themselves fallen into deep and troubling error concerning the nature and person of Jesus Christ.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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SkyWriting

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Mary's offspring, our Lord Jesus Christ, is God. Since Mary is the mother of Jesus, since she gave birth to Jesus, Mary is therefore the mother of God because her Child, Jesus, is God.

Mary was only the mother of the human side of Jesus. That part died, and was not "God".
So while she may have birthed Jesus, as per prophecy, she did not birth God.
In the neighborhood, she gets credit for having a child. Nothing more.
We can't even give her credit for raising an extraordinary human.
Nothing in scripture says she was a great at parenting.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Mary was only the mother of the human side of Jesus. That part died, and was not "God".
So while she may have birthed Jesus, as per prophecy, she did not birth God.

And therein is Nestorianism, a Christological error. Such Christological error represents a much bigger issue that needs to be addressed. Jesus is God and man, without division and without confusion.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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SkyWriting

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And therein is Nestorianism, a Christological error. Such Christological error represents a much bigger issue that needs to be addressed. Jesus is God and man, without division and without confusion.-CryptoLutheran

Your comments included no scripture.
I have no confusion. Baby Jesus had no special attributes
other than a fully Spiritual future in store for Him.
Read the reports for yourself:

11 Bible Verses about
Baby Jesus
http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Baby-Jesus
 
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SkyWriting

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So I've noticed a fairly common trend over the years. Almost inevitably when the issue of Mary as the Theotokos or mother of God is raised someone will protest by arguing that Mary can't be the mother of God because Mary didn't give birth to God the Father or the Holy Spirit, or that Mary didn't exist before God, or that Mary isn't divine. And, naturally, when this protest is raised our response is to correct that misconception:

By saying Mary is the mother of God we do not mean that she gave birth to God the Father or the Holy Spirit, we do not mean that she existed before God, and we certainly don't mean that Mary is divine. What we mean by it is very explicit and very simple: Mary's offspring, our Lord Jesus Christ, is God. Since Mary is the mother of Jesus, since she gave birth to Jesus, Mary is therefore the mother of God because her Child, Jesus, is God.

That really should be the end of the discussion, misconception has been corrected. And yet, almost without exception, that doesn't resolve the dispute. The one who protests will continue to insist that Mary can't be the mother of God because she didn't give birth to the Father or the Holy Spirit, or that she didn't exist before God, or that she isn't divine. Yet those things have never been part of what it means to say she is God's mother, it has never meant anything other than that she is Jesus' mother, and that Jesus is God in the flesh.

So then one might argue, "Even if that isn't what is meant, someone might think that is what is meant, and so the risk is great." But that seems to be a failure of a response to me, for one I am unaware of this having ever been a legitimate problem in all the years of Christian history, one would think that if this were a legitimate risk that it would have been something needing to be addressed in the last two millennia but that doesn't seem to be the case. Further, if that concept of "risk" were applied to some other ideas we might see how it fails as an argument, let me provide an example:

Saying Jesus is God. This statement goes with little controversy in the mainstream of Christian churches (only out-and-out heretics say otherwise) and yet we could say this is a risky problem because it could, potentially, lead one to believe that Jesus is God the Father. And, indeed, that has been a legitimate error many have believed over the centuries, and yet the risk of error is accepted because we acknowledge that to address such risk and error is to correct it--we point out that, no, Jesus is not God the Father, He is the Son, and it is as the Son that He is God. The error is corrected, and we continue to confess the Deity of Christ.

And so when we have a statement that could potentially be misinterpreted to heresy and error, we do not throw it away, we explain what it actually means, we correct the error, and we continue to employ its use because, in its proper use, is true.

This is precisely how we go about addressing potential error when it comes to saying Mary is Theotokos and mother of God, it means something specific and is true in its intended meaning, and when someone is misinformed about its meaning we correct it, and if someone falls into error concerning it, we address it and correct that as well.

So where, therefore, is the legitimate protest against the theological truth that Mary, as the mother of our Lord Jesus who is God and man, is God's mother? There is none.

If the protest is due to confusion, it has been corrected.
If the protest is due to risk, we address the risk and correct it if it should appear.
If the protest is due, however, to heresy--that one does not believe Jesus is truly God, indeed the very God-Man--then that is where we have a legitimate problem, and a much bigger concern than the protest as the one who protests has themselves fallen into deep and troubling error concerning the nature and person of Jesus Christ.

-CryptoLutheran

Not even a hint of scripture in your post.
Too late now.
Try re-writing your post without "I", "Me", "we" or any references
to your own experiences. That's the start of a good post.
 
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Hawkiz

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Your comments included no scripture.
I have no confusion. Baby Jesus had no special attributes
other than a fully Spiritual future in store for Him.
Read the reports for yourself:

11 Bible Verses about
Baby Jesus
http://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Baby-Jesus

Are you saying that The Christ didn't become God until later in life when you say 'Baby Jesus had no special attributes'?

The Scipture you linked does not demonstrate that, and would actually prove that Jesus was both fully God and fully man from conception, and thus baby Jesus had eternal, and innumerable 'special attributes' from this conception.

Perhaps you can clarify your statement rather than have readers not understand your meaning?

Peace in Christ
Hawkiz
 
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SkyWriting

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thus baby Jesus had eternal, and innumerable 'special attributes' from this conception.

Or
you can point to these attributes I claimed didn't exist?
Perhaps you can show me wrong. I don't mind.
You say Jesus was baptized by the Spirit at Conception.
So He was born of water, but born of the Spirit
before birth. That should be easy to show.
 
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SkyWriting

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Are you saying that The Christ didn't become God until later in life when you say 'Baby Jesus had no special attributes'? The Scipture you linked does not demonstrate that,

This one covers it. How would God increase in wisdom?

Luke 2:40
The Child continued to grow and become strong, increasing in wisdom; and the grace of God was upon Him.
 
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Hawkiz

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Or
you can point to these attributes I claimed didn't exist?
Perhaps you can show me wrong. I don't mind.
You say Jesus was baptized by the Spirit at Conception.
That should be easy to show.

You claimed that 'baby Jesus had no special attributes'.
I am asking for clarification from you about this claim.

You provided a link that contained 11 Scriptural quotes about who the Christ-child would be.
Using those quotes from Scripture, we see in Matthew that from conception, Jesus was conceived between Mary (a human) and The Holy Spirit (God). Can you explain how Jesus, who is demonstrated within the verse from the Gospel of Matthew to be both God and man, didn't have 'special attributes' from the outset? That is what I am asking you to clarify please, before I claim 'you are wrong'.

Peace in Christ
Hawkiz
 
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SkyWriting

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You claimed that 'baby Jesus had no special attributes'.
I am asking for clarification from you about this claim.

You provided a link that contained 11 Scriptural quotes about who the Christ-child would be.
Using those quotes from Scripture, we see in Matthew that from conception, Jesus was conceived between Mary (a human) and The Holy Spirit (God). Can you explain how Jesus, who is demonstrated within the verse from the Gospel of Matthew to be both God and man, didn't have 'special attributes' from the outset? That is what I am asking you to clarify please, before I claim 'you are wrong'.

Peace in Christ
Hawkiz

Ok

Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son,

Not "Son" , Not "God."

John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son,

"Son" not "son"

Luke 2:40 The Child continued to grow and become strong, increasing in wisdom

God was increasing is Wisdom? Good parenting? I guess!

Isaiah 9:6-7 - For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us

Human terms.

Luke 2:7 And she gave birth to her firstborn son; and she wrapped Him in cloths,

Lower case "son" but upper case "Him" in this instance.

So 4 1/2 instances of a normal human birth.
And one verse showing that Jesus had much to learn about wisdom
and specifically mentioning how weak the child is.
 
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Hawkiz

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This one covers it. How would God increase in wisdom?

Luke 2:40
The Child continued to grow and become strong, increasing in wisdom; and the grace of God was upon Him.

Are you suggesting that Jesus was not fully God?

As (also) man, one would expect that infant Jesus did not come out of the womb speaking fluent Aremaic...I would attribute this verse to speaking to the human side of the existence of Christ. God came to us in full and complete humility: as an infant. While He 'could' have 'decided' to suddenly appear on earth in human form as a fully grown man...He didn't. Does the Holy Spirit participating in the creation of a being lead us to anything other than the creation of a being that was both fully human AND fully Divine? Where does Scripture show that The Holy Spirit created Christ and then left Him until a later date, whereby Jesus THEN became God? What am I missing?

Even at a young age (around 12), we can see that Jesus had already surpassed the teachers in the synagogues in wisdom and understanding. (Luke 2:41 and following). This event occurs prior to His Royal Annointing; prior to the miracle at Cana. One could ask why Jesus didn't sit with the teachers in the synagogue earlier? Scripture tells us that His family visited every year. Perhaps because these leaders were not ready/willing to listen to questions and answers from a 7 year old? I don't know the 'Why did God chose to reveal Himself in this particular way?' answers. Why is there a gap from when He was 12 until approximately 30? We don't know that answer either. But there isn't proof in the verse that you have sited that Jesus didn't become God until later in life.

This is why I am asking for clarification rather than hurling an accusation of 'you're wrong!' at you.

Thank you

Peace in Christ
Hawkiz
 
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Mary of Bethany

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Ok

Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son,

Not "Son" , Not "God."

John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son,

"Son" not "son"

Luke 2:40 The Child continued to grow and become strong, increasing in wisdom

God was increasing is Wisdom? Good parenting? I guess!

Isaiah 9:6-7 - For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us

Human terms.

Luke 2:7 And she gave birth to her firstborn son; and she wrapped Him in cloths,

Lower case "son" but upper case "Him" in this instance.

So 4 1/2 instances of a normal human birth.
And one verse showing that Jesus had much to learn about wisdom
and specifically mentioning how weak the child is.


I want to be clear here - are you saying that your "Baby Jesus" as you call him, was not born as God? That he somehow became God later? Or that he's not God? What are you saying?

Mary
 
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Hawkiz

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Isaiah 7:14 "Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son,

Not "Son" , Not "God."

John 3:16 - "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son,

"Son" not "son"

Luke 2:40 The Child continued to grow and become strong, increasing in wisdom

God was increasing is Wisdom? Good parenting? I guess!

Isaiah 9:6-7 - For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us

Human terms.

Luke 2:7 And she gave birth to her firstborn son; and she wrapped Him in cloths,

Lower case "son" but upper case "Him" in this instance.

So 4 1/2 instances of a normal human birth.
And one verse showing that Jesus had much to learn about wisdom
and specifically mentioning how weak the child is.

The Isaiah 7:14 verse is also tied with the Matthew 1:23 verse, where it is revealed again to us how God views this child: His name shall be Immanuel, meaning God with us. The name has purpose and meaning that should not be overlooked. God actually indwells this Child does He not?

And John 3:16 actually supports this: Jesus is very much called the (Capitol S) Son of God.

Isaiah 9 and Luke 2 again support that Jesus was God; humbly in the human form.

Peace in Christ
Hawkiz
 
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Hawkiz

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Calling Mary "Mother of Jesus of Nazareth" would avoid all problems.

How so? That 'title' would seem to lend itself to the heresy that Jesus wasn't God? That seems to classify 'Jesus of Nazareth' as just a regular guy...and I am proudly 'biased' on this: Jesus is God and Mary is His mother!

Peace in Christ
Hawkiz
 
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Hawkiz

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<Staff Edit>

There is nothing, in either Scripture or Tradition that would back the claim that Jesus was 'normal' in any way.

The Scripture that you provided at the outset certainly does not support the position that Jesus was ever 'normal'. Even His baptism, which is clearly set apart from ours as a Royal Annointing, demonstrates that Jesus was far from 'normal'.

Mary gave birth to God, as Jesus is God.

Peace in Christ
Hawkiz
 
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Cappadocious

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When God's Word became incarnate, he emptied himself and became human. He, God's Word himself, assumed our ignorance. So God's Word himself grew in wisdom, even though he paradoxically knew all things. He did not do so in virtue of being two different beings; one human, one divine. Nor did he do so because a piece of him was God, whereas a piece of him was not. Rather, he did both at once as one being.
 
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Hawkiz

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<Staff Edit>

Jesus was conceived of both Mary and The Holy Spirit. He was thus fully God and fully man from conception. Yet The Holy Spirit did not carry Jesus until birth...Mary did. Clearly she had a role to play in bringing Jesus, still fully God, into this world, also still fully man.

Did you read the carefully and very well worded explanation from the OP? If you would like to stay within that, I suggest you quote what was written there and dispute...and please show how your claims that Jesus was 'normal' from birth are Scriptural? What you have provided thus far only seems to support the claims of the OP (and myself) that Jesus IS God and always has been...not that He became God later in life.

Peace in Christ
Hawkiz
 
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SkyWriting

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When God's Word became incarnate, he emptied himself and became human. He, God's Word himself, assumed our ignorance. So God's Word himself grew in wisdom, even though he paradoxically knew all things. He did not do so in virtue of being two different beings; one human, one divine. Nor did he do so because a piece of him was God, whereas a piece of him was not. Rather, he did both at once as one being.

Well said. :oldthumbsup:
 
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Hawkiz

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Well said. :oldthumbsup:

<Staff Edit>
Jesus existed, from conception as one being with two parts...they can not be divided and still maintain the other. Either they combine to make Jesus or they don't...do you have two sides of your being? Maybe so from a science perspective. But can they be split and have you still exist as you? Of course not. In this sense, Jesus could be perceived as 'normal'; in that everything that joined to make Him both God and man can not be divided and have Him still be both God and man. You are not a clone of your mother; nor are you a clone of your father. Nor is Jesus a clone of His mother or a clone of His father; rather, the two parts are joined perfectly.

Peace in Christ
Hawkiz
 
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