Death before the fall of man

[GodSaves]

Hello all!

I know I have posted something like this before, but I have been reading about death in Max Lucado books as well as in the Bible. As I know Max Lucado is not the end all, I think he presents some very interesting thoughts, directly and indirectly.

Let us assume for a moment that death, physical death, was meant to be part of God's creation before the fall of man. I know this can be a bit difficult, but just try for a moment and I think you will see what I am getting at.

Assuming physical death is part of God's creation before the fall:

Why does Jesus Christ raise many people from the dead?
Why was Jesus Christ moved in spirit and even wept when seeing/hearing of those who died?
Death brings pain, and with pain comes suffering. Pain and suffering not only to the one who is dying, but also to the ones who love the one who is dying.
Was it God's plan that before the fall, we have pain and suffering, as physical death does bring?
Why in Revelations does it say death is the last to be cast into the lake of fire if death was meant by God all along?
Why would God subject His people to pain and suffering, before the fall of Adam?

Why before sin would there be suffering and pain?


God Bless

 

[Beowulf]

Do we have anything about death before Satan was cast from heaven? He became "the god of this world".
Was he already on earth at the time Eden was made?

I know, more questions but the topic in interesting.


|v11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
(NewT:John 16:11)

|v4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
(NewT:2 Corinthians 4:4)

 

[MatthewDiscipleofGod]

Good questions that don't have good answers and that's why I would say that were was no death and pain and suffering before the fall.

 

[GodSaves]

Why does Jesus Christ raise many people from the dead?

Is it show us that the body is not really dead, but only sleeping. That physical death has no power over us when in Christ?

Matthew 9

23When Jesus entered the ruler's house and saw the flute players and the noisy crowd, 24he said, "Go away. The girl is not dead but asleep." But they laughed at him. 25After the crowd had been put outside, he went in and took the girl by the hand, and she got up.

Mark 5
38When they came to the home of the synagogue ruler, Jesus saw a commotion, with people crying and wailing loudly. 39He went in and said to them, "Why all this commotion and wailing? The child is not dead but asleep." 40But they laughed at him.

Luke 8
51When he arrived at the house of Jairus, he did not let anyone go in with him except Peter, John and James, and the child's father and mother. 52Meanwhile, all the people were wailing and mourning for her. "Stop wailing," Jesus said. "She is not dead but asleep."
53They laughed at him, knowing that she was dead.

John 11
10It is when he walks by night that he stumbles, for he has no light."
11After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up."
12His disciples replied, "Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better."

Acts 7
59While they were stoning him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." 60Then he fell on his knees and cried out, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." When he had said this, he fell asleep.

Acts 13
35So it is stated elsewhere:
" 'You will not let your Holy One see decay.'[1]
36"For when David had served God's purpose in his own generation, he fell asleep; he was buried with his fathers and his body decayed. 37But the one whom God raised from the dead did not see decay.

1 Corinthians 15
17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.

1 Corinthians 15
19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.
20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man.

1 Thessalonians 4:14
We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.

1 Thessalonians 4
14We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. 15According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

1 Thessalonians 5
9For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. 10He died for us so that, whether we are awake or asleep, we may live together with him. 11Therefore encourage one another and build each other up, just as in fact you are doing.

 

[GodSaves]

Did God create us to physically die thus have pain and suffering?

I believe pain and suffering is from sin, not God. Physical death brings pain and suffering, not only to the one who is dying, but also to the one's who know and love the one dying. It even grieved Jesus. Why would something that was created through Jesus Christ and meant to be apart of creation before sin entered the world, grieve Him? I can only think of one answer, physical death was not God's original plan before sin entered through man.

Psalm 119
z Zayin
49 Remember your word to your servant,
for you have given me hope.
50 My comfort in my suffering is this:
Your promise preserves my life.
51 The arrogant mock me without restraint,
but I do not turn from your law.

Psalm 119
152 Long ago I learned from your statutes
that you established them to last forever.
r Resh
153 Look upon my suffering and deliver me,
for I have not forgotten your law.
154 Defend my cause and redeem me;
preserve my life according to your promise.

Isaiah 14
2 Nations will take them
and bring them to their own place.
And the house of Israel will possess the nations
as menservants and maidservants in the LORD's land.
They will make captives of their captors
and rule over their oppressors.
3 On the day the LORD gives you relief from suffering and turmoil and cruel bondage, 4 you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:
How the oppressor has come to an end!
How his fury [1] has ended!

Matthew 4
Jesus Heals the Sick
23Jesus went throughout Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, preaching the good news of the kingdom, and healing every disease and sickness among the people. 24News about him spread all over Syria, and people brought to him all who were ill with various diseases, those suffering severe pain, the demon-possessed, those having seizures, and the paralyzed, and he healed them. 25Large crowds from Galilee, the Decapolis,[1] Jerusalem, Judea and the region across the Jordan followed him.

Mark 5
28because she thought, "If I just touch his clothes, I will be healed." 29Immediately her bleeding stopped and she felt in her body that she was freed from her suffering.
30At once Jesus realized that power had gone out from him. He turned around in the crowd and asked, "Who touched my clothes?"

Mark 5
33Then the woman, knowing what had happened to her, came and fell at his feet and, trembling with fear, told him the whole truth. 34He said to her, "Daughter, your faith has healed you. Go in peace and be freed from your suffering."
35While Jesus was still speaking, some men came from the house of Jairus, the synagogue ruler. "Your daughter is dead," they said. "Why bother the teacher any more?"

If suffering and pain, part of physical death, is meant to be before the fall of man, why did Jesus heal so many who suffered? Is it because it was never meant to be this way? And was Jesus Christ showing what it will be like when we are in Him, and the day of His reign and death has been thrown into the lake of fire has come?

God Bless

 

[GodSaves]

Why in Revelations does it say death is the last to be cast into the lake of fire if death was meant by God all along?
Death in this passage of revelations is not spiritual death, revelations clearly tells us what is spiritual death. I believe death is thrown into the lake of fire because it was never meant by God to be part of HIs original creation, before sin entered the world.

Revelation 2
10Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.

Revelation 20
5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Revelation 20
13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Revelation 21
7He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars--their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
9One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues came and said to me, "Come, I will show you the bride, the wife of the Lamb."

The lake of fire is the second death and if death is thrown into the lake of fire, then death cannot be spiritual death. Spiritual death is being seperated from God for eternity.

God Bless

 

[GodSaves]

Do we have anything about death before Satan was cast from heaven? He became "the god of this world".
Was he already on earth at the time Eden was made?

I know, more questions but the topic in interesting.


|v11 Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.
(NewT:John 16:11)

|v4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
(NewT:2 Corinthians 4:4)

Please add your questions too Beowulf and anyone else who has them concerning the topic.

God Bless

 

[Beowulf]

I believe death is thrown into the lake of fire because it was never meant by God to be part of HIs original creation, before sin entered the world.

physical death was not God's original plan before sin entered through man.

I'll agree there.
I'm not finding evidence in scripture of death before the fall. The first reference to death would have been the animals that the hides came from to cover Adam and Eve's shame, the beginning of sacrifice and atonement by blood.

Genesis 3:24
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

I don't think the tree Adam and Eve were forbidden to eat from was the tree of life. So I'd have to assume they were allowed to take of it's fruit. Once separated from the tree of life death would be their fate, along with separation of any other possible benefits such as immunity from disease. We don't know the mechanics of immortality since nothing alive in our physical world lives forever.

I also see long ages of men in Genesis but not immortality or total immunity. This could suggest degradation had begun when Adam and Eve were cast from the garden. Some could point out that life span has increased since ancient times but that just shows we've learned to take better care of ourselves, not that our immune systems are getting better. And there's that limit of 125 years for the age of man to consider.
( Degradation of man since Adam could be another topic altogether)

Satan didn't bring death with him when he was cast to earth. When that was I don't know. It was through his tempting that he was able to entice Adam and Eve knowing sin would separate them from the tree of life. In this manner he gained the power of death or it's result by sin. After all, Satan wanted to be God.

Isaiah 14:12-14
12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.

So Satan appeals to Adam and Eve to play God too and they thought it was a good idea. Satan knew what would happen since he already experienced the result of a proud and lustful heart.

God didn't punish Adam and Eve. He gave them over to their own sinful desires. He gave them what they wanted. We also choose our own fate. If we choose to live without God in our lives then he'll not make us be with Him in eternity either.

Death, pain and suffering entered into the world because we chose to turn our backs on life.

 

[Beowulf]

God and man walked together in fellowship before the fall.
The tree of life was Adam and Eve's "link" to eternal life, immortality, which God placed in Eden for them. It couldn't be God's desire that man die since He gave them a means of eternal life and man could be with God forever.
But after the fall death came into the world.
The bible isn't about man's pursuit of God but God's pursuit of man to reconcile that which was, fellowship with man. Reading the first 3 chapters of the bible then reading the very last 2 chapters of the bible shows this. (the big picture)
It's God's desire that man be reconciled to Him, to walk in eternity in fellowship with man immortal, without death, as it was before the fall.

 

[Beowulf]

Hello all!

I know I have posted something like this before, but I have been reading about death in Max Lucado books as well as in the Bible. As I know Max Lucado is not the end all, I think he presents some very interesting thoughts, directly and indirectly.

Let us assume for a moment that death, physical death, was meant to be part of God's creation before the fall of man. I know this can be a bit difficult, but just try for a moment and I think you will see what I am getting at.

Assuming physical death is part of God's creation before the fall:

Why does Jesus Christ raise many people from the dead?
Why was Jesus Christ moved in spirit and even wept when seeing/hearing of those who died?
Death brings pain, and with pain comes suffering. Pain and suffering not only to the one who is dying, but also to the ones who love the one who is dying.
Was it God's plan that before the fall, we have pain and suffering, as physical death does bring?
Why in Revelations does it say death is the last to be cast into the lake of fire if death was meant by God all along?
Why would God subject His people to pain and suffering, before the fall of Adam?

Why before sin would there be suffering and pain?


God Bless

If there was no death before the fall:
Makes sense in the case of the creation when God called it "good". Adam walked with God having the fellowship we seek. Until the command was given not to eat of the tree there was no law, there could be no penalties without rules.

If there was death before the fall:
Then it was God's plan that death, pain and suffering should be in the world in the first place. And how could God call death, pain and suffering "good"? The fall would have little significance since death was in the world already. Adam and Eve would have nothing to lose by eating of the tree and it would be business as usual. In this light it becomes God's fault that there is suffering in the world and not because of the depravity of man or any choice man makes. It gets man off the hook and blames God because it was His plan anyway.
If there was death in the first place then it's no fault of Adam and Eve. Sure, they could be guilty of not saving mankind from death and again we have someone else to blame, Adam and Eve. And if that doesn't cut it we can still blame God.


God created all and called it "good". He's a God of love not a god of suffering. He gets no pleasure watching and knowing those in His creation are suffering. It was man who turned away from Him through a lustful and proud heart. We want to be like God having all authority in our life, not His way, but ours.

 

[adam149]

Ok, let's assume that there was physical death of animals and man in whose nostrils are the breath of life (insects, etc., don't count under this distinction) before the fall.

Then all of the questions posed in the original post stand, with a few others. Why did Christ have to die physically if we only fell mentally, or only Adam and Eve fell at all?

My response? "Eat, drink, and be marry, for tomorrow we die."

Hello all!

I know I have posted something like this before, but I have been reading about death in Max Lucado books as well as in the Bible. As I know Max Lucado is not the end all, I think he presents some very interesting thoughts, directly and indirectly.

Let us assume for a moment that death, physical death, was meant to be part of God's creation before the fall of man. I know this can be a bit difficult, but just try for a moment and I think you will see what I am getting at.

Assuming physical death is part of God's creation before the fall:

Why does Jesus Christ raise many people from the dead?
Why was Jesus Christ moved in spirit and even wept when seeing/hearing of those who died?
Death brings pain, and with pain comes suffering. Pain and suffering not only to the one who is dying, but also to the ones who love the one who is dying.
Was it God's plan that before the fall, we have pain and suffering, as physical death does bring?
Why in Revelations does it say death is the last to be cast into the lake of fire if death was meant by God all along?
Why would God subject His people to pain and suffering, before the fall of Adam?

Why before sin would there be suffering and pain?


God Bless

 

[Beowulf]

If there was death in the first place how could there have been a fall of man unto death? And the second death comes after judgement as far as I understand it.

Rev 20:14
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.


Romans 5:10-21
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.
12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:
21 That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[GodSaves]

Adam thank you for your post and added questions.
Beowulf, you just hit the mark, I think.

The second death is after God has judge one and now that one has been cast into the lake of fire. Adam and Eve were not thrown into the lake of fire. How do we know the lake of fire is the second death? Revelations 20:14.

The concept of spiritual death in the Bible is being apart from God for eternity. This happens on the day of judgement, as Revelations says.

God Bless

 

[GodSaves]

Physical Death before the fall:

My thoughts continued...

Genesis 2:9
And the LORD God made all kinds of trees grow out of the ground-trees that were pleasing to the eye and good for food. In the middle of the garden were the tree of life and the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

Genesis 3:17
To Adam he said, "Because you listened to your wife and ate from the tree about which I commanded you, 'You must not eat of it,' "Cursed is the ground because of you; through painful toil you will eat of it all the days of your life.

Genesis 3:24
After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side [ 3:24 Or [ placed in front ] ] of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

Revelation 2:7
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will give the right to eat from the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.

In the Garden of Eden God gave man his first choice. Choose to eat of the tree of life or of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Mans first choice, eternal life of perfection and righteousness in God, or a life with death, imperfection and unrighteouseness. Man allowing himself to be deceived chose the later. Mans first choice. Surely if eating one piece of fruit from the tree of knowledge condemned the man from the Garden to a life of unrighteousness then it is likely that eating of one fruit of the tree of life would be a life of righteousness and a sinless life.

Genesis 2
15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

Man ate of the tree that God commanded him not to eat of, and surely man has been dying physically ever since. From the day we are born we start to slowly die, even science can confirm this. Man that day did not die spiritually, for that day comes on judgement day as Revelations clearly states.

Revelations 20
The Dead Are Judged

11Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. 15If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

The second death, spiritual death, is eternity away from God. The second death is the lake of fire, as said in the above passage. Physical death is thrown into the lake of fire because it was never apart of God's plan in the beginning.

Isaiah 25
7 On this mountain he will destroy
the shroud that enfolds all peoples,
the sheet that covers all nations;
8 he will swallow up death forever.
The Sovereign LORD will wipe away the tears
from all faces;
he will remove the disgrace of his people
from all the earth.
The LORD has spoken.

Psalm 9
12 For he who avenges blood remembers;
he does not ignore the cry of the afflicted.

13 O LORD , see how my enemies persecute me!
Have mercy and lift me up from the gates of death,
14 that I may declare your praises
in the gates of the Daughter of Zion
and there rejoice in your salvation.

Psalm 56
12 I am under vows to you, O God;
I will present my thank offerings to you.
13 For you have delivered me from death
and my feet from stumbling,
that I may walk before God
in the light of life.

 

[adam149]

And there's that limit of 125 years for the age of man to consider.

This is something I have been wondering about. I don't think the passage is saying that man's life will be limited to 120 years. Most theologians agree, and Henry Morris with them, that this passage is teaching that this is the length of time until the flood, the number of years for Noah to build the ark and give mankind a chance to repent. After all, the ages of the post-diluvial patriarchal ages go far beyond this number for hundreds of years. THis would seem to contradict the idea that God is saying that he will forever limit the years of a man's life to 120 years.

As to the degrenation of man, there is no question we've degenerated. From the genetic bottleneck of the flood and constant inbreeding both before and after, its a wonder we can do anything today. Dr. Jack Cuozzo has done some facinating research on how the patriarchs lived for long ages because of better genetic repair systems and protectional systems.

 

[Beowulf]

In the Garden of Eden God gave man his first choice. Choose to eat of the tree of life or of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. Mans first choice, eternal life of perfection and righteousness in God, or a life with death, imperfection and unrighteouseness. Man allowing himself to be deceived chose the later. Mans first choice. Surely if eating one piece of fruit from the tree of knowledge condemned the man from the Garden to a life of unrighteousness then it is likely that eating of one fruit of the tree of life would be a life of righteousness and a sinless life.

A choice. I hadn't seen it like that and I believe you're right. Nowhere in scripture does it say Adam ate of the tree of life but that he chose to eat of the tree of knowledge.
Good point.

 

[GodSaves]

If one would like to know what the "image of God" means, then study the life of the man named Jesus Christ. That is what we were suppose to be. You notice Jesus defeated physical death and spiritual death, with the power and belief in God Almighty.

We do know what the 'image of God' means, we have Christ to see what it means.

 

[MatthewDiscipleofGod]

This is something I have been wondering about. I don't think the passage is saying that man's life will be limited to 120 years. Most theologians agree, and Henry Morris with them, that this passage is teaching that this is the length of time until the flood, the number of years for Noah to build the ark and give mankind a chance to repent. After all, the ages of the post-diluvial patriarchal ages go far beyond this number for hundreds of years. THis would seem to contradict the idea that God is saying that he will forever limit the years of a man's life to 120 years.

I think you just hit the bull's-eye.