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I believe we face trials for many reasons.
Jesus said we are his witnesses. Not just witnesses of the gospel IMO, but witnesses to our reliance on him in times of trials. I believe God will call upon us on the day of judgment as witnesses against those that blamed him for things in their life.
Even though I'm posting this in the non-WoF subform, I know that sometimes it is easy to mistake what forum a person is in, and unintentionally post a response.
While the subject of healing and dealing with trials has been argued over and over again in the main forum, and now the debate forum, I wanted to start a thread to discuss the issue among those who disagree with the WoF teachings.
As many of you know, I've been dealing with a lot of trials in my life. I'm just going to post briefly for those who may be newer here, or unaware of my situation. I was married in December 2002. In October 2003, my job restructured and moved us from our friends and family to a new home 400 miles away. Around June 2004, my wife was told she had a tumor on her pancreas, but they didn't know if it was cancerous or not. In July, she underwent a whipple surgery, the most invasive abdominal surgery one can get. They basically took out the tumor, part of her pancreas, part of her stomach, parts of her intestines, her gall bladder, and a bile duct. I've heard it is more dangerous than heart surgery. In November 2004, she was diagnosed with thyroid cancer and had her thyroid removed. Since that time, my wife has gone through many surgeries, and his still, to this day, dealing with pain and complications relating to her whipple surgery. Then, of course, with the downturn of the economy, my local office closed in May 2008 and since that time I've had to commute 70 miles one way to work. I've also been stuck in between two positions, often times doing twice the amount of work that is typically expected, forcing me to take work home. I'm still hoping things will slow down for work, but because we sell software to the mortgage industry, and because the laws are continuing to change regarding home loans, everyone is being pushed very hard, so that we will all continue to have jobs. Add to that I've recently started having my own health issues, mostly minor, it all adds up.
Dear Friend - I completely understand your life and your wife's as well. My wife was diagnosed with a degenerative bone disease, fibromyalgia, bipolar and myelopathy, about seven years ago. We attempted to see if she could work and that experience proved a mistake since she had five auto accidents, luckily all of which never exceeded three thousand dollars worth of damage and she was OK, considering. I could no longer afford to keep her on our car insurance, so she lost her right to drive and work. Once that occurred I submitted an application for social security disability. After five and a half months we received a letter of refusal and then secured a lawyer. Twenty-two months later we received a letter that concluded that she was receiving her retroactive disability check and a monthly check thereafter. We lost the five and a half months SS from when I first applied because the system only pays from the time your lawyer petitions the court for your wife's disability. I managed somehow to cover our thousand dollar mortgage, two car payments, all of the monthly insurance costs, medications, etc, for the entire twenty seven and a half months. Last week we received her retroactive check. My wife is only fifty years old. She has not been out of the house twenty times that entire period. She is required six different pills a day which equals twenty pills a day. I now own a safe where all medications are securely locked and I can go to work. When I am home, together we determine if her problems are emotional or physical and we handle medications in that manner. She is now dependent on opiates for pain, muscle relaxants for comfort and sedatives for sleep. Her bipolar medications are entirely separate, as is her newest thyroid medication to help offset weight gain due to prescription usage.
This, of course, is only scratching the surface of my life these past six and a half years. There are ups and downs every day. It doesn't cover the addictions my wife had to face resulting from the overabundance of pain medications she's had to take, it doesn't cover the stress I've had dealing with those addictions. It is a constant emotional and even a spiritual struggle.
The stress I have dealt with concerning her medications have been going on for six years as well.
Through it all, though, I've never given up my faith that the Lord will deliver us. He has delivered me from so many things in my own life that I have no doubt He will deliver us from these trials. I don't know when, but I do trust in His provisions, and I do know that we are in His hands.
My faith has taken huge changes. I no longer believe in anything concerning word of faith doctrines. The name it - claim it doctrine is long past me. Prosperity and healing messages are much the same. Go to narrowwayministries.com, then messages, and then archives and look for "Responding to Suffering." It has done wonders for me. It is the truth concerning healing for my life and many of the people around me who have heard this message.
This tangent wasn't meant to highlight my trials, but to bring the subject of trials and tribulations forward for discussion. It is a question of how we deal with trials and tribulations. How do we keep strong? What do we believe when we, or those we love, are sick or struggling? How do we respond?
I can't answer the question on how to respond, only that I now have a grasp on where God fits in with all of what goes on around us.
I look to my experiences with God's love and deliverance in my own life in the past. I cling to God's promises, through His Word, about His deliverance. I trust that, no matter how dark things appear to be, God is there with me, guiding me through the darkness, even though I may not see or feel Him.
I look to my experiences but have my doubts concerning what we see as the promises. Most healings are not met through faith healings or repetition of scripture. I understand that. I look to the grace of God for everything. I don't yet understand where it says "God will have mercy on whom he will..." or why it is that it does exist. I just accept it.
I know I don't pray as often as I should. I do listen to God's Word in the car on my commute and I do listen to Christian music almost exclusively. Only other music I listen to is soundtracks, classical or other instrumental music when I'm working and don't want the lyrics distracting me. I probably don't seek as much support from my Brothers in Christ either. Due to the strains in life, I've found it difficult to make it to church over the past few months. Probably not a good idea, considering.
We are equal in the instrumental aspect of music, being a musician and I almost exclusively listen to John Michael Talbot for Christian music. I can't find a church that I can call home. Living a responsible life is plenty for me.
I don't know why I made this post so long, or why I focused more on my own trials than I had planned when first starting this post. Let me assure you, though, the topic is for discussion about dealing with trials and tribulations, not only my own, so feel free to share your own experiences so that we can all grow in the Lord and strengthen each other in God's Love.
Brother Dennis and Jas4Yeshua,
I don't want to say anything that is offensive. Life itself has caused
both of you offenses enough. What I want to do is to attempt to
get both of you Brothers to reflect on a very simple outlook that
we are commanded to adopt, or become.
I've given consideration to much of that my brother. The church world has taken it much to far with all of the emotionalism attached to being as little children. Holy laughter? I haven't found anything in a long time that would warrant holy laughter, not that I wouldn't appreciate a good laugh. Dear Jesus help me to laugh.
The Lord Jesus said, "Unless you become like one of these little children, you cannot inherit the kingdom of God."
Kids from one day to 4 years do so little for themselves except
have fun. Ever seen a little child in a sandbox with their arms crossed and a frown on their face muttering about the rising cost of gasoline?
No I haven't but it sounds funny to me. Recently one of the little girls that my wife sat with for a few hours a day (when she could) I have fallen head over heels for. She is the sweetest seven year old girl I have ever met in my life and we care for each other very much. Her mother is unskilled and has never worked anything other than being a waitress, so she is unable to afford child care, having run away from her husband and family in Minnesota, for whatever reasons. We live in Florida. My wife took little to nothing for her time caring for the children. I instead would take them to the movies (2 kids, 1 adult, 1 large popcorn and 1 large coke= $33.00 in Florida). I would spoil them with ice cream cones with sprinkles, I would take them to the Dollar General for toys. When their mother was offended at a response I gave her concerning employment, actually I suggested she try different things, or work two jobs. i didn't care, since my wife understands how much Kat and I care for each other. I would take Kat and Sam as a foster dad in a blink of an eye. That was enough for their mother to separate my wife and me from her kids. Kat and Sam miss us something awful now. We do not have children, though my wife raised three of them many years back. We are stable with government employment and social security disability for my wife.
Little children don't have the concept of the world and its woes in their thoughts. They completely rely on their parents for everything!
Brothers! You have become more adult than you need to be.
In today's world being adult about caring for children is all important. To act like children doesn't set well with me since it leads to the ridiculous. (barking and clucking I've heard about in some worship services.) Forgive me if it truly doesn't exist, I've only read about it on-line and on the radio. Please consider me more adult. Please. The laws of today would scare the boogie man himself. Mark me down as adult my brother, thank you.
ASK.Cry out for mercy until it comes.
We are past pleading, though your thoughts are commendable. The things you speak of is doctrine found in Bosworth's book "Christ the Healer." You should read it. My wife and I did morning, noon and night for a year or more.
Be careful of the words that you speak. Life and death are in the power of your own mouths! Not the devil. He no longer has those keys! But Jesus does! Do you really think that Jesus would cause you suffering? Absolutely not!
Please go to narrowwayministries.com, then messages, then archives and look for "Responding to Suffering." Sit back and listen. It will clarify to you where God is through all of our suffering. Nothing gets past God. Nothing, not at any time. God is responsible for permitting and initiating considerable suffering. Clearly it is written and it makes more sense than "name it claim it " doctrines ever did or ever will. Why are so few healed? Why are so many poor? Don't be taken in be so much as we were for decades. Thank you brother for your kind words and deep concerns.
There's more to say about generational curses and forgiveness among other things, but time for me is short. Just meditate on the little I brought up. Remember, God called us little gods [that operate with speech, on faith].
I appreciate the encouragement and I know the passages you are referring too. I take issue with the "little gods" doctrine and how far it has spread within the word of faith churches. There are so many lessons taught in word of faith that in years past have made monsters out of so many of us, at one time or another. It has a way of destroying quality relationships in our lives if that doctrine controls every thought in our minds.
Thank you so much for your time and I feel so much better knowing there is family out there who truly care.
Love you both in Jesus name!
First, you assume that we aren't coming to Christ as children. You assume because we post about trials for prayer that we are muttering. We are told to bring our requests to God and to pray for one another.Brother Dennis and Jas4Yeshua,
I don't want to say anything that is offensive. Life itself has caused
both of you offenses enough. What I want to do is to attempt to
get both of you Brothers to reflect on a very simple outlook that
we are commanded to adopt, or become.
The Lord Jesus said, "Unless you become like one of these little children, you cannot inherit the kingdom of God."
Kids from one day to 4 years do so little for themselves except
have fun. Ever seen a little child in a sandbox with their arms crossed and a frown on their face muttering about the rising cost of gasoline?
Little children don't have the concept of the world and its woes in their thoughts. They completely rely on their parents for everything!
Brothers! You have become more adult than you need to be.
ASK.Cry out for mercy until it comes.
Be careful of the words that you speak. Life and death are in the power of your own mouths! Not the devil. He no longer has those keys! But Jesus does! Do you really think that Jesus would cause you suffering? Absolutely not!
There's more to say about generational curses and forgiveness among other things, but time for me is short. Just meditate on the little I brought up. Remember, God called us little gods [that operate with speech, on faith].
Love you both in Jesus name!
First, you assume that we aren't coming to Christ as children. You assume because we post about trials for prayer that we are muttering. We are told to bring our requests to God and to pray for one another.
My thoughts exactly.
Second, your line of thinking is the type of thinking that causes more harm than good. I trust in God and His provision, regardless of my circumstances. I lift Michelle up to the Lord and I ask for God to heal, and I believe He will. Until that healing comes, even if it does not, I trust in Him and continue praying.
Our God is a soverign God and the truth is He will have compassion and mercy on who He will. There are no formulas. I lift Donna and Michelle up to the Lord and I ask for God to heal, and I believe He will. Until that healing comes, even if it does not, I trust in Him and continue praying, just as my brother does and encourages me to continue doing.
Finally, while this forum is called non-WoF (a name I was never particularly thrilled with), the idea is that we want to get away from those controversial teachings such as the "little gods" and "positive confession." I appreciate that you are trying to be encouraging, but be careful yourself that your encouragement doesn't become like Job's friends who criticized without having all the facts.
Job is, indeed, an excellent book on the trials that we face. I have to say that I completely agree with your post. Thanks for bringing it to the discussion.JAS,
This may be redundant but the best study of trial and adversity is Job. That is why the book of Job exists.
I'm sure there is much more to learn in the book than what I can tell you, but I'll offer a few observations for you to consider.
1st, There are many reasons why trials and tribulations may come. They may come because you are not living right, they may also come because you are living right. They may come because God is trying to move you onto a new path, they may come because devil is trying to disuade you from the path you are walking.
The point there is that most of the time we never really know why except in hindsight, sometimes not even then. Further, most of those who think they know why, and feel free to tell you why, are usually full of crap (or more accurately full of themselves).
The natural human response is to ask why, to wonder why.. what have I done to deserve this.
Job's friends offered him all manner of reasons, none of which were right. Job himself observed that there seemed to be no rhyme or reason to who was blessed and who was cursed. Often the wicked prosper and enjoy life. They have plenty and live in happiness and self indulgence. Yet Job suffered.
Yet in the end when Job got the chance to talk to God, he asks the very question that all men would ask "why?" and God's answer is essentially that his ways are beyond us. He knows infinitely more than we could ever know, he sees more than we could ever see, he understands more than we could ever understand.
In response Job covers his mouth. He silences himself before God.
The verse that has always struck me the most in Job is this
"Though he slay me, I will hope in him;
yet I will argue my ways to his face."
Job 13:15
The sentiment is that Job accepts that he is God's to do with as God wills, and no matter what comes, no matter what God allows, he will hope in God because ultimately he believes that God knows best, and God intends good for him.
Even though He slay me, I will hope in Him.
Speaking of myself, hard times are the ultimate gut check about what I really believe. Its when I find out who I really am, and what I really believe. Usually I find out I'm kind of a whiner, especially when I see what other people endure. When I have to deal with hard times, trials etc, I deal with it by seeing that it is an opportunity to bring myself back to the basics. To get rid of distractions and to come face to face with God and remind myself that nothing else really matters; to offer up to him simply myself, not hoping to gain anything, not to strike deals, but simply to become a living sacrifice.
I can't tell you why, and I doubt anyone else can either. In my opinion most of those who try are not worth listening to. All I can tell you is that God is in control, and God has your good in mind.
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