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You made the claim that there are no examples, so the burden of proof is on you. Saying that you can't find any examples and that no one else has proven that there are examples is not the same thing as saying that there are no examples.
This is an example of the fallacy of the excluded middle. It ignores the possibility that there are examples for which there is no proof one way or the other. And there are several examples of that type: Joseph and Potiphar, Daniel and Ashpenaz, David and Jonathan, Elijah and Elisha, Ruth and Naomi, Jehu and Jehonadab, and finally one that is hard to see as not being sexual, the centurion and his pais.
Care to try again?
If these were homosexual relationships, why didnt they say it? Why would you have to try to "read between the lines"?
It's funny, I get accused of "twisting scripture" when in black and white it says homosexaulity is sin, but you guys can make all kinds of assumptions about something that is NOT there in scripture, but that's NOT twisting scripture!
I call these homosexual pressupostions since pleasant can mean a number of things except sexual desire.I thing that the strongest point suggesting the Jonathan and David were more than just "friends" would be found in Samuel II; Chapter I verse 26. Upon learning of Jonathan's dead David states " I am distressed for you my brother Jonathan: You have been very pleasant (underline added) to me; Your love to me was wonderful, Surpassing the love of women."
To me, it can't get much clearer than that...these were David's words.
Actually the burden of proof is on you since there are clear scriptures that condem homosexuality is same to to assume that the bible would not contradict itself. Also your textual evidence (if you can call it that) is speculative at best.You made the claim that there are no examples, so the burden of proof is on you. Saying that you can't find any examples and that no one else has proven that there are examples is not the same thing as saying that there are no examples.
This is an example of the fallacy of the excluded middle. It ignores the possibility that there are examples for which there is no proof one way or the other. And there are several examples of that type: Joseph and Potiphar, Daniel and Ashpenaz, David and Jonathan, Elijah and Elisha, Ruth and Naomi, Jehu and Jehonadab, and finally one that is hard to see as not being sexual, the centurion and his pais.
Care to try again?
Actually the burden of proof is on you ...
...since there are clear scriptures that condem homosexuality is same to to assume that the bible would not contradict itself.
Also your textual evidence (if you can call it that) is speculative at best.
One more time: I offered no evidence, nor did I need to. I made no claim.
You claim homosexual behavior is not sin - prove it! Especially since anytime homosexuality is mentioned in the Bible, homosexuals are either being destroyed by God or condemned.
Show me where -- in this thread -- I claimed that homosexuality is not a sin.
In any thread where I make a claim, I back it up in that thread or I retract it.
[SIZE=-1]You rationalized your thoughts and make logical sense out of it, so you certainly can't be told you are wrong for what you believe. Again, however, it would be up to how someone interprets it. Perhaps David and Jonathan didn't ACT upon their feelings. Who's to say? I'd have no idea as I didn't walk the earth back then. What I do know is :
1 Samuel 20:41
After the boy had gone, David got up from the south side of the stone and bowed down before Jonathan three times, with is face to the ground. Then they kissed each other and wept together - but David wept the most.(NIV)Other translations have a different ending to the verse:
and they kissed one another and wept with one another, until David exceeded. (KJV)
and they kissed one another and wept with one another until David got control of himself. (Amplified Bible)
and they sadly shook hands, tears running down their cheeks until David could weep no more. (Living Bible)
They kissed each other and wept together until David got control of himself. (Modern Language)
They kissed each other and wept aloud together. (New American Bible)
Then David and Jonathan kissed each other. They cried together, but David cried the most. (New Century Version)
vThen they kissed one another and shed tears together, until Davids grief was even greater than Jonathans. (Revised English Bible)
and they kissed one another and wept with one another until David recovered himself. (Revised Standard Version)
How would a literalist interpret these scriptures? Certainly one could think there was some sort of homosexuality here, and perhaps just never acted on it. Again, I truly don't know. You may find it amusing..but whether it was the law or not..you think no one disobeyed the law in God's time...only now? That I think is amusing. No one is suggesting a passionate love affair between the two men..but certainly there was SOMETHING there rather than just two friends. If that were the case, it wouldn't have been any different than any relationships b/w two men, but these two were pointed out.[/SIZE]
If you want to know what the Hebrew scriptures mean ask Hebrew scholars not homosexuals with a highly biased agenda.
<snip>
[SIZE=-1]Strange.
Based on the fact that the post you criticized for poor Hebrew scholarship was examining 1 Samuel 20:41, one would expect that when you quote Hebrew scholars, you would quote their interpretation of 1 Samuel 20:41.
Leviticus 18:22 is not 1 Samuel 20:41.
Leviticus 20:13 is not 1 Samuel 20:41.
Deuteronomy 23:19 is not 1 Samuel 20:41
Deuteronomy 27:21 is not 1 Samuel 20:41
Exodus 20:14 is not 1 Samuel 20:41
How does any of that bear on interpreting 1 Samuel 20:41?
Even if it were to be conceded that a homosexual relationship between David and Jonathan would be a sin, the verses you referenced would not bear on the interpretation of 1 Samuel 20:14. We already know that David was not without sin. The Bible records his adultery with Bathsheba, and his subsequent murder of Uriah, her husband.[/SIZE]
Read the second sentence in my post.From the time of Moses, ca. 1200 BC, the Talmudic scholars interpreted the scriptures as condemning ALL homosexuals acts; by ALL persons, male and female; in ALL places, under ALL circumstance, at ALL times, NO exceptions.The relationship between David and Jonathan was being interpreted as openly homosexual. If anyone, king or commoner had, had an openly homosexual relationship they would have been stoned<period> end of story.Lev 20:13 And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
[SIZE=-1]Just like he was stoned for his adultery with Bathsheba? Or his murder of Uriah? What verse did that happen in?[/SIZE]
He very well might have been stoned if the relationship were homosexual, but you can't simply assume that the abscence of the stoning proves the abscence of a homosexual relationship.
I dont believe that, be careful not to base an assumption of who is Christian on what I beleve is a non-Christian viewpoint.I don't believe that. Be careful to assume all homosexual Christian believe that.
This is true. However in order to discuss the accuracy of the text one has to consider that the relationship between them is at the start described as a spiritual one. Secondly it helps to know that they were in the society that recognised same-sex sex as a punishable offense by death. Therefore one can assume, and I mean 'assume' that there was no offense because they were not stoned. You said one couldnt do that, one can assume that.The motive of the querent is irrelevent if the study is accurate. But in order to discuss the accuracy of the study, you must discuss the study, not related, but distracting issues.
I always find it amusing when people try to say that David and Jonathan were gay lovers. For one thing, they were in the Old Testament and were still under the laws in Leviticus. David would not have been caught dead "lying with a man as one lies with a woman".
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. Leviticus 20:13
And even if you stretch so far out to even think it might have been possible, it sure wouldnt have been public so that others knew about it and wrote about it in the Bible. And if he had, he would have been called on it and would have suffered consequences just like he did when he committed adultery with Bathsheba.
So give us a break. D & J were not gay lovers. In fact, there are NO homosexual role models in the Bible. There are NO homosexual heros in the Bible. There are NO examples of homosexual marriage in the Bible. There are NO instructions for homosexual marriage in the Bible. The only homosexuals mentioned in the Bible are either destroyed or condemned. So tell me again how God thinks homosexual behavior is awesome and blessed?
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