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Daoism Q&A! Yay!

TricksterWolf

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There aren't many Daoists out there (102 with the symbol on CF, many of whom are not Daoists), and even fewer who would actually admit to being a Daoist. But upon seeing this, fraught with inaccuracy:

http://www.christiananswers.net/q-aiia/letter-taoism.html

I'm struck by the fact that mine is a religion few people actually know the first thing about, apart from what you can find on the Internet.

So, in case there is interest, I decided to prop up a forum to prove I actually have a religion ;) and to answer questions if any exist. I also did this in case other Daoists want to discuss or debate Daoism. As a rather personalized religion, Daoism is open to a lot of interpretation and discussion. Most Daoists don't really care, though, as most of us have no desire to change someone else's world-view.

Anyway, the basics that most Daoists would agree upon, to cover any preliminary queries:

Daoism is actually three religions: an organized religion, a folk religion, and a personal religion (the latter is usually called Philosophical Daoism). The first two are most commonly found in China. I can only speak to Philosophical Daoism, so when I speak about Daoism from now on I'm referring to that specific religion.

Daoism is primarily based on a short book of poetry called the Dao De Jing, attributed to someone called Lao Tsu (but there are probably multiple authors in reality). The book Zhuangzi, attributed to an author of the same name (again, probably multiple authors), is also emphasized. Philosophical Daoism in particular has been somewhat influential in Western philosophy in recent years.

Primary tenets of Daoism include belief in an apophatic, non-anthropomorphic deity, called the Dao or "The Way". Roughly, this represents the way in which things work in the Universe. "Apophatic" means it is impossible to fully define the Dao in anything other than negative language. This is because the Dao is larger and truer than our language and minds are able to grasp; if I called it "good" or "wise" I would immediately be wrong because I would be limiting the Dao to what I understand goodness and wisdom to be. The Dao is yet considered "good" in the same way that water is "good"; it sustains all things, both things we like (my family) and things we don't (mosquitos, bad people). The fact that water doesn't judge you when it refreshes you is exactly what makes it so good. Likewise, the Dao is there for both "good" and "evil" people; it makes no distinction, and this makes it fair and great.

Because of this, Daoism doesn't recognize "sin". But there are actions which attempt to go against the grain of the Dao, and while these are not sinful, they are seen as unwise and counterproductive to society and nature. Daoists see these as distractions from truth rather than evils. Daoism encourages certain virtues in making life decisions so that we can better know if we're acting in accordance with the Dao.

First among these is wu-wei, which means "acting without acting". This is probably the most misunderstood aspect of Daoism, as it may sound like "apathy" at first listen. Actually, wu-wei means "natural action"; acting without "trying too hard". This is similar to how the best dancers become part of a dance, rather than "trying" to dance. Daoism encourages people to have patience and wait until a course of action is clear before proceeding. Moral action is then seen as a natural consequence of following one's natural morality, so Daoism reinforces the idea that man is inherently a moral being. Daoists generally believe that rules and laws that restrict people's moral choices only serve (ironically) to make people crafty and immoral. This is true even when laws are not enforced. Daoism is paradoxically anti-religious and anti-science, but still embraces all means of living.

Above all virtues, Daoism espouses compassion for all things. To achieve this, we try not to get caught up in desires for oneself, which is seen as self-defeating. Moderation and humility are also stressed, as well as a sense of humor. The Dao De Jing contains a number of intentional ironies, including one where Lao Tsu boldly says, in a book of poetry, "Those who talk don't know, and those who know don't talk." :) Much of the book is also dedicated to teaching subtle leadership, where the best leader leads by example rather than by force, and does not take credit for the successes of her people. The idea that "the person who knows she has enough is truly rich" emphasizes that state of mind is more important than material gains.

Curiously, people usually ask me if Daoism is like The Force from Star Wars. It's a lot like that, actually, but there's no Light Side or Dark Side. It's all one side, and it's all an inexhaustible source for whatever you want it to be. Daoists may differ on how they justify the problem of pain, but I and many others feel that all experiences are valuable--including the bad ones, so the problem is not as apparent to us. There is not a consistent view on the afterlife in Daoism, so I won't comment on my views in this thread.

Daoism differs from Buddhism in than Daoism views all experiences as valuable and life as generally pleasant, whereas Buddhism views all life as suffering. Confucism differs from Daoism because it views life as inherently chaotic and in need of rules to correct people's actions, whereas Daoism puts its faith in people and believes that it is those very rules that cause immoral behavior. Curiously, there have been a number of famous philosophers who belong to both religions.

My main comfort from Daoism comes from knowing that the way things work will always right itself. If a politician I don't care for gets elected, I am reassured that if he truly is an unwise leader, people will see this for what it is eventually. Given time, people learn, and nature and society grow. Thus, I can always take comfort that things are working as they are supposed to; and over time, learn the wisdom that comes from "watching the show go by". As a Daoist, my interventions to help should be carefully pre-planned, and in tiny steps; these are the best ways to influence the future for the benefit of humankind.

Trickster
 

vajradhara

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Namaste Tricksterwolf,

thank you for the post.

a pet peeve of mine is spelling T'ao as Dao.. grr... but, no matter :)

my practice of the Buddha Dharma in heavily influenced by my practice of the Northern Complete Reality school of T'aoist spiritual alchemy so i have some passing understanding of the tradition.

the symbolism in these texts can be quite obtruse and it has taken me quite a while to come to even a basic understanding of some of the points being made.

i have been very greatful to T'aoist Wizards like Liu I Ming for his seminal work "Awakening to the T'ao" and, of course, "The Secret of the Golden Flower."

in terms of practice manuals, the Secret of the Golden Flower is a superlative example of Northern Complete Reality T'ao and Ch'an Buddhist meditation techniques.

is your practice based on a particular school of T'ao?

metta,

~v
 
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TricksterWolf

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a pet peeve of mine is spelling T'ao as Dao.. grr... but, no matter :)
Heh, I never know what's best with that. I usually spell it Dao because that's how it sounds. :)

is your practice based on a particular school of T'ao?
No, it's just based on the Dao De Jing and various Western interpretations. Chinese being beyond me, I like the more down-to-earth English translations, like Stephen Mitchell and J. Garon. I'm not into the alchemy/divination that sometimes accompanies the Daoist faith (though I think I Ching is a fun diversion that can be used for psychological self-inspection).

Beyond what the book tells me, my religion is a journey of self-exploration. I find that when I make mistakes in life they routinely come from hasty action (such is my personality), so the Dao De Jing is a good reminder of my faults and where I try to progress to.

Trickster
 
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Eudaimonist

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Thank you for sharing your views.

Daoism is paradoxically anti-religious and anti-science, but still embraces all means of living.

What does this mean?

Curiously, people usually ask me if Daoism is like The Force from Star Wars. It's a lot like that, actually

In what way?


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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TricksterWolf

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What does this mean?
Daoism is somewhat "anti-religious" from the perspective of some Western religions because it does not advocate a strict set of laws; rather, it advocates not imposing a strict set of laws on people. The understanding of the Dao is also more limited and undefined than that of most gods. For a final point, it warns about religiosity and ritual, suggesting that these are things people return to only when they've forgotten the Dao.

Daoism is somewhat "anti-scientific" in that it suggests that there are limits to what we can know about the natural order of things; also, it places essential needs of people ahead of learning.

In no way is Daoism actually opposed to either religion or science, it just cautions about getting too "caught up" in either pursuit. :)

In what way?
Daoism is like The Force in that the Dao exists everywhere, in all things, and is sort of a wellspring of energy and existence; being from nonbeing. Unlike The Force, Daoism exists and mitigates all things, not only things that are alive. It also doesn't grant supernatural powers. :) But the feel of the religion is similar to The Force because both are defined loosely and apophatically in most cases, and because both pervade all things and essentially run the Universe.

Trickster
 
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TricksterWolf

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I'm a little curious (and suspicious) of why they changed the spelling of all of the prime words much as they have with the new "wicca" spelling "magic" as "magik".

I noticed that you spelled "Tao Te Ching" as "Dao de Jing". Why the change?
It's only a personal choice. Some Daoists spell it in the traditional translation "Tao", while others spell it how it is pronounced so you'll know it if you hear it again. The book is most often pronounced "dow duh zhing" so I usually write it as Dao De Jing. It's not a split on dogma.

Trickster
 
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TricksterWolf

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Do Tao ists believe that everything has an opposite...like night and day, male and female and these opposites can be found in nature and are part of a greater balance?
Yes. That's a part of the philosophy also found in other Eastern belief systems. I don't think it's as central as some of the other beliefs...to me, it's more of an illustration that everything has a purpose, both the things men like and the things men revile. For example, we talk about nonbeing a lot... You build a house or a pot from materials, but you use the space inside it. We work with being, but nonbeing is what makes things useful to us. So different aspects of things compliment one another: hot and cold, short and long, young and old. They all have a place in the tapestry.

Trickster
 
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J

JesusWalks78

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Yes. That's a part of the philosophy also found in other Eastern belief systems. I don't think it's as central as some of the other beliefs...to me, it's more of an illustration that everything has a purpose, both the things men like and the things men revile. For example, we talk about nonbeing a lot... You build a house or a pot from materials, but you use the space inside it. We work with being, but nonbeing is what makes things useful to us. So different aspects of things compliment one another: hot and cold, short and long, young and old. They all have a place in the tapestry.

Trickster

Do you believe that everything has an opposite and that these opposite forces are neccesary to maintain balance and the right amount of Chi?
 
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TricksterWolf

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Do you believe that everything has an opposite and that these opposite forces are neccesary to maintain balance and the right amount of Chi?
To an extent, but not in an overly literal sense. I believe that all things exist in balance, and there is an inherent order to the chaos around us. I try to balance myself by avoiding extremes, which is sometimes difficult. But I don't think every concept has an opposite, not exactly.

Chi as a sort of life-energy isn't really a subject I follow. That's more toward the alchemical/divination aspect of the folk religion, at least in my view.

Trickster
 
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Rusticus

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Than you for the opportunity to ask questions.

I am under the impression that Daoism says nothing about what happens when we die. (In the sense that there is no concept of re-incarnation, or Heaven/Hell.)

Can you please explain a bit more about what Daoism says about these things? (And, as a sort of supplementary question, does this apply to all three forms of Daoism that you mention in your introduction?).


Just, in addition, my take on the change of spelling from Tao to Dao:
This would seem to be in line with the change of all chinese words written in english to fall in line with the way they are actually pronounced in chinese (Peking to Bejing, for instance).
 
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vajradhara

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Namaste Tricksterwolf,

thank you for the post.

actually.. it does't really sound like "dao" :) the T'ao sound has a glottal stop that if you are not rasied with cannot be heard. i saw a quite fascinating show on babies and their ability to learn languages and they used this term as a particular example.. if the baby heard it growing up, they could hear it later.. if they didn't, it went undetected.

In your copies of the text, do they include the Chuang Zhu both Inner and Outter chapters?

the I Ching, as much as it is used in this manner, is not actually related to divination at all :) the trigrams and hexagrams all have specific correleations within the spiritual alchemy schools. as i mentioned, it is a very complex and subtle symbolism which is being used and based on many commonly known ancient Chinese worldviews and understandings.

in any event, i wish you good hunting upon your journey of discovery!

metta,

~v
 
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TricksterWolf

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I am under the impression that Daoism says nothing about what happens when we die. (In the sense that there is no concept of re-incarnation, or Heaven/Hell.)

Can you please explain a bit more about what Daoism says about these things? (And, as a sort of supplementary question, does this apply to all three forms of Daoism that you mention in your introduction?).
I can only speak for Philosophical Daoism. I've heard that some adherents to the folk religion believe the Masters acheived eternal life, but I only see this as an allegorical description of one's work on this Earth lasting forever.

Philosophical Daoism has no Heaven or Hell. It sees us as arising from a single, inexhaustible source, darkness within darkness, the origin of all things and all not-things: for lack of a better term, we call it the Dao. We arise from and return to this same source. Daoists are not afraid to die, because we know that we will, in a deeper sense than mortality.

I personally believe that the consciousness we experience is part of all consciousness: all things of being, past, present, and future, from an infinite number of worlds. In a sense, we're each an infinitessimal piece of a unified conscious experience. So death isn't an end any more than birth is a beginning. It's sort of a quasi-reincarnationist view, except there's no straight line from one death to another birth (you don't have past lives or accumulate karma). Rather, it's all mixed together, never ending and non-temporally bound. This is only my personal view, though.

Daoists differ on the concept of afterlife, but we can all trust in the Dao.

Trickster
 
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TricksterWolf

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actually.. it does't really sound like "dao" :) the T'ao sound has a glottal stop that if you are not rasied with cannot be heard. i saw a quite fascinating show on babies and their ability to learn languages and they used this term as a particular example.. if the baby heard it growing up, they could hear it later.. if they didn't, it went undetected.
I'm familiar with this, as linguistics is a hobby of mine. :) I've never heard the correct phonetic pronunciation of these Chinese names so I just use what I hear most commonly in the West.

I had a Japanese exchange student when I was a child, and he always insisted we could not pronounce his first name. We tried many times--it was pretty amusing.

In your copies of the text, do they include the Chuang Zhu both Inner and Outter chapters?
I don't actually have a copy of that text, I only read exerpts of it online. I usually use just the Dao De Jing for personal study and reflection. It's such a tiny book, but I could read it forever and find something new every time, and I have yet to put it into practice as I should.

the I Ching, as much as it is used in this manner, is not actually related to divination at all :) the trigrams and hexagrams all have specific correleations within the spiritual alchemy schools. as i mentioned, it is a very complex and subtle symbolism which is being used and based on many commonly known ancient Chinese worldviews and understandings.
That's very interesting. I know of its use in divination best. I have a book that goes into great detail on the trigrams. It appeals to my creative impulses because it is so cleverly put together, yet so well-ordered. I'm certainly not an expert on its use.

Trickster
 
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J

JesusWalks78

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To an extent, but not in an overly literal sense. I believe that all things exist in balance, and there is an inherent order to the chaos around us. I try to balance myself by avoiding extremes, which is sometimes difficult. But I don't think every concept has an opposite, not exactly.

Chi as a sort of life-energy isn't really a subject I follow. That's more toward the alchemical/divination aspect of the folk religion, at least in my view.

Trickster

Iam a martial artist I know what Chi is.

So you beleiev in balance, that means the middle of two extremes.....like when Bhudda was under the tree and heard the Musician teaching his student?

So for there to be two extremes there must be opposites right? ANd are there opposites in nature?
 
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very_irreverand_Bill

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I'm a little curious (and suspicious) of why they changed the spelling of all of the prime words much as they have with the new "wicca" spelling "magic" as "magik".

I noticed that you spelled "Tao Te Ching" as "Dao de Jing". Why the change?

First to TRICKSTERWOLF:

Thanks for sharing your beliefs and your knowledg of Daoism.
Regarding Daoism, I will say it is a religion I admire and see validity in, and it's concepts have a deeply PanDeistic core{which is something I like about it} and that it's ideas are shared with or have spilled into other religions, I fin alot of it in Paganism, and there is a type of Satanism called "dark doctrines" Satanism that I've been studying where their is talk of a "dark force"-which in essense is alot like the Dao, and in fcat there is alot of Daoist influence there.


To RELUCTANTPROPHET:

But to answer the spelling of Magic/K thing.
It was actually Aleister Crowley, the great occultist whom inspired most of the Occultism and Neo-Paganism of today{Wicca's founder included and thsoe after him}.
Crowley spelt it "magick"{not magik,though this may be a mispeeling or a different take on Crowleys idea}.
He spelt it this way to differentiate real magick from "stage magic"{or showmanship}. Those Neo-Pagans,Wiccans, and Occultists today whom add the 'K" either do it w/out knowledge of the origins of this idea, and to be trendy; or they do it because they know Crowleys stuff and his idea and agree.
Crowley was a all around occuktist whom blended element sof Egyptian religion,mysticism, Kabballah, and other occul and mysticism sources into his practice; Crowley also was high up in occult orders suchas the Ordo empli Orientis, and he is the founder of "Thelema".

In Reason:
Irrev.Bill
 
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TricksterWolf

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Iam a martial artist I know what Chi is.

So you beleiev in balance, that means the middle of two extremes.....like when Bhudda was under the tree and heard the Musician teaching his student?

So for there to be two extremes there must be opposites right? ANd are there opposites in nature?
I don't interpret the idea of "balance" quite so literally. When I speak of avoiding extremes, I mean that I try to remain self-aware of my desires, lest I get too wrapped up in them. Most of the problems people face in their lives that separate them from serenity and wholeness arise from getting caught up in an endless pursuit of things for the self: money, status, security, friends, hobbies, love. Daoism teaches to not see the self as self. By abandoning pursuits for oneself and by leaving judgements behind, one can be truly compassionate for all things.

As for opposites, there is a fundamental truth there...but the principal one is being vs. non-being, or action vs. inaction. There is a place and a purpose for all the things here on the Earth, including those silent moments and empty spaces. In America in particular our leaders often defend rash action with, "Well, we have to do something!" This shows the foolishness of not weighing inaction against wrong action.

Although some things may go against the Dao and be counterproductive to the actor, everything is technically natural, even those strange things men create and do. We're all an intrinsic part of the way things work.

Trickster
 
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