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Edit: @GDL just mentioning you here because I see you also talked about the same issue.Hi @GDL , i will try to response to your post #111 here, as somehow i could not be able to reply directly to your post. so if i miss something you can ask again sorry.
ok, what i mean by "Gods works" in achieving for us His Righteousness, is whatever "means" God do to achieve Righteousness. ie gives wisdom, knowledge, faith, etc
these verses will explain what i meant by Gods works.
1 Corins 12-6.." There are different ways of working, but the same God who works all things in All people.
Philippians 2: 13.." For it is God who works In you, both to will and to work for His good purpose.
philippians 1:6.." Being confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in You will continue until the day of Christ..
so, is not that "we" are working "with" God But is God who worked In us.
Hi SB, I agree the Law is righteous, holy and good...is like a vehicle to Righteousness (eternal life) If perfectly followed.God’s law is righteous Psalms 119:172 and love to God is the fulfillment of the law when keeping.
1 John 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments
As shown clearly in Hebrews 11 righteousness has always been through faith but you still did not answer my question….
If we have God's righteousness in the New Covenant, would we be keeping the law of God through faith, or breaking God's law?
God never condemned people for keeping His commandments, only breaking them. Deut 28:15 Jesus also condemned those who do not keep God’s commandments Matthew 15:3-9 All of God’s commandments are perfect Psalms 19:7, Righteous Psalms 119:172 and Truth Psalms 119:151 and you seem to be trying to make the opposite argument for some reason, like obeying is bad or God would ask us to keep something we can’t, instead obedience is what leads us to righteousness Romans 6:16 Romans 5:19 and converting the soul Psalms 19:7 and obedience shows you have faith. James 2:22 If you have faith in God does that faith lead you to believe and trust what God commands of His children? How can one have faith in God, but not faith in His righteous commandments? It is not the law that makes one righteous, it is faith in God, but when you have faith you DO what God asks, instead of hearing and not doing James 1:22 Revelation 22:14
Righteousness is by faith Romans 1:17 The faithful uphold God’s law Romans 3:31 and is a fruit of God’s saints (saved) Revelation 14:12
Hi, the old covenant (Sinai) it relies on this short statement. Exodus 19:8..."The people all responded together, "We will do everything the Lord has said"...More to it than that. It has always been about relying on God and His promises and power.
Hi, thank you for your response, appreciate your time.Thanks for letting me know you're having the same problems with this site. Reply doesn't work for me either at times. The site is still buggy in more than one way.
I'm OK with God being the means, but not with your last statement - I see both with and in being correct. Phil2:12-13 and the other verses I supplied makes it clear that we do work and "with God" seems appropriate. Luke 8 soils parable says how important productivity is. Phil2:13 essentially says God is using His capabilities to give us the capabilities to desire and to do for His good pleasure. This is His enabling us and I'd view Jesus' vine and branches lesson as telling us the same thing - apart from Him we can do nothing - in union with Him He provides what's needed for us to produce/work/accomplish. So, the goal is for us to work - to be productive. In Phil2:12 we're commanded to accomplish by work our salvation with fear and trembling. So, with the capabilities He provides we do the work we're commanded to do. The fear and trembling here in context and in essence meaning to do what we're told and not work at cross-purposes to what He's doing in us. To work with Him and not against Him.
I'd have to hear some wisdom that convinces me that this is not working with Him. Isn't this what the dominion mandate was all about from the beginning? He provides the garden, and He provides the existence and the bodies and the spirit from Him for us to work on the garden in union with Him. He provides the new heart and spirit and His Spirit, etc., and His Salvation, and we work on our gifted Salvation with Him. IMO the works pendulum has been swung too far to the other side in an effort to protect from the wrong view. Now it too is wrong. The right view is centered between the extremes. It's always been about working faithfully with Him in and with what He provides.
I am well, thank you, you?Soyeong, my man, how's it going?
So it turns out "the law of Christ" is used only once that I can find.
It's there near the end of Galatians,
Bear one another’s burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ.
But just shortly before he says,
For the whole law is fulfilled in one word, in this: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”
I think "the whole law" refers to the law of Moses.
But that's differentiated from "the law of Christ".
I see that the fulfilling of each has different focuses.
A passage that maybe relates,
...all things which are written in the law of Moses, the prophets, and the psalms, concerning me must be fulfilled.”
Luke 24
I am pleasantly surprised we came to an agreement. The only comment is on "perfectly followed". If you go to Hebrews 11, which gives an example of OT bible references of people with great faith- all of them sinned, but in Hebrews it doesn't mention their sins as they were blotted out through faith, because they all fell, repented and got back up. If you take David for example, he pretty much broke all of the commandments, he coveted and stole another man's wife, worshipping his lust over worshipping God and he murdered Uriah so he could have his wife all while taking God's name in vain by doing these things while saying he is a man of God. He fell hard, but he sincerely repented and humbled himself and the most important thing about true repentance is changing the behavior. When a righteous man falls, he gets back up, the dangerous place is being comfortable and living with sin and thinking it's okay.Hi SB, I agree the Law is righteous, holy and good...is like a vehicle to Righteousness (eternal life) If perfectly followed.
And so does is the way of Faith to reach Righteousness..
Apology if I didn't answer your question..Qn.."so if we have God's Righteousness under the New Covenant would we be keeping God's Law through Faith or breaking Gods law it?
The answer is Yes, if we obtain God's Righteousness then we keep God's law. (God's law is law for Righteousness )
God's Law in our hearts is the 10C among other laws, maybe you mean this, but the way its worded, just want to check.Having gotten a bit wordy and side-tracked in response to you, but making a case that His work in us is related to writing His Law in our hearts, increasing our love, faith-righteousness and our doing righteousness, a few thoughts about good works:
- I don't think the 10C defines good works, maybe they are a part of what good work are, but that His Law on our hearts is part of what enable us to do good works in Christ in Spirit
I like this, thanks for sharing.IOW, there are a lot of works we do but to be good works that God has created us anew to do, we must be in faith-obedience to Him, being godly, righteous, loving Him, Neighbor, One Another as He commands, redeemed from all lawlessness, not being willfully lawless, being cleansed by & for Christ, etc. So, His commandments in us and willingly lived by us is part of our doing good works. So good works are according to Love which is according to His Commandments - based in being in Christ, walking in Spirit.
- Therefore if anyone cleanses himself from the latter, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified and useful for the Master, prepared for every good work. (2 Tim. 2:21 NKJ)
- Note the before and after context re: ungodliness (so, vs. godliness) (2Tim2:16) (my long definition from studying this word in varying contexts is: living a willingly, obedient, righteous & holy life as Jesus Christ did) & unrighteousness (so, vs. righteousness) (2Tim2:19) then (2Tim2:22) the commanded pursuit of righteousness, faith, love, peace.. Once again, some Law related words surrounding "good works."
- Note Heb10:24 re: good works and how it's correlated to love. Then Heb10:26 in explanation contrasts to sinning willfully.
- Note Titus2:14 how zealous for good works is based in His redeeming us from "all lawlessness" and cleansing us.
- Note Titus1:16 that one of the things that negates good works is disobedience.
Hopefully this makes some sense.
Romans 8 says that problem has been dealt with by Jesus Christ condemning sin in the flesh. We are newly created as children who progressively grow up spiritually to overcome sin to ever greater degrees. Along the way in Christ walking in Spirit we confess our sins to God and receive His forgiveness & cleansing by Jesus' blood & advocacy. We work with Him once we are His. When we are children we speak, understand, think like children, then we become grownups and put away the childish things.The thing about God working "with" us to achieve His Good purpose, is that we humans by nature are always inclined to do evil rather than good which go against God's will and purpose.
I see the 10C as only the beginning per Rom13:9 "and if there is any other commandment" which I see as our call to study His Word - His Law. Honestly, I'm not as strong on Sabbath as SDA or Messianics, but I'm not RCC and assuming Sabbath it's original Sabbath.God's Law in our hearts is the 10C among other laws, maybe you mean this, but the way its worded, just want to check.
Welcome.I like this, thanks for sharing.
Another correlation I found is this verse:
1 John 3:8 But when people keep on sinning, it shows that they belong to the devil, who has been sinning since the beginning. But the Son of God came to destroy the works of the devil.
The devils works is sin, the opposite of God's works Exodus 32:16 (the Ten) which is what reveals sin when broken. Romans 7:7 James 2:10-12
Well also, thanks for asking ❤️ This is our story, This is our song: praising our Savior, all the day longI am well, thank you, you?
Yes. However, I don't think that means that we would necessarily show our love for God today by keeping all of the commandments in the law of Moses after Jesus has already fulfilled them.NAS Greek Lexicon for Pleroo:
"to fulfil, i.e. to cause God's will (as made known in the law) to be obeyed as it should be, and God's promises (given through the prophets) to receive fulfilment"
I hear what you're saying. For me, it makes a huge difference that Jesus lived under the old Covenant, we live under the new. From Galatians,Again, Christ spent his ministry fulfilling the Mosaic Law by teaching his followers how to correctly obey it by word and by example, so I don't see any justification for thinking that the Law of Christ is something other than or contrary to what Christ taught.
The construction in 1 Corinthians 9:21 is different, but if we say that it is referring to the law of Christ, then I'd say that it is contrasting the law of Christ with the law that some people are under, which I assume is the law of Moses.Likewise, I don't see justification for thinking that bearing one another's burdens is something other than or contrary to loving your neighbor as ourselves. Furthermore, in 1 Corinthians 9:21, Paul said in a parallel statement that he was not outside the Law of God, but under the Law of Christ, so he equated the Law of God with the Law of Christ, and the Law of Moses is the Law of God.
It is true that Christ is God, but it doesn't follow that everything true of God is true of Christ.Likewise, Christ is God, so I see no justification for thinking that the Law of Christ is something other than or contrary to the Law of God.
Hi SBGod's Law in our hearts is the 10C among other laws, maybe you mean this, but the way its worded, just want to check.
The way to show our for God is by acting in accordance with His nature, so for example, by following God's instructions for how to do good works, we are showing our love for God's goodness, and God's nature is eternal, so any instructions that God has ever given for how to love Him are eternally valid. Jesus fulfilled the law be teaching us how to correctly obey it by word and by example, which makes it that much more important for us to also fulfill the law by following his example, while there is nothing about him fulfilling the law that makes is no longer necessary to show our love for God by keeping His commandments in the Mosaic Law. As the NAS Greek Lexicon stated, pleroo refers both to causing God's will as made known in His law to be obeyed as it should be and prophecies to receive there fulfillment, so there is nothing about Mary not getting pregnant over and over that means that we should not continue to obey God's law as it should be obeyed in accordance with the example that Jesus set for us to follow.Well also, thanks for asking ❤️ This is our story, This is our song: praising our Savior, all the day long
Lots of great points in your post, I'd like to talk about them one at a time
Yes. However, I don't think that means that we would necessarily show our love for God today by keeping all of the commandments in the law of Moses after Jesus has already fulfilled them.
Now all this has happened that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying,
“Behold, the virgin shall be with child,
and shall give birth to a son.
They shall call his name Immanuel,”
which is, being interpreted, “God with us.”
Matthew 1
The prophecy was fulfilled, Mary did not keep getting pregnant over and over.
Jesus spent his misery teaching how to live under the Mosaic Covenant by word and by example and he did not establish the New Covenant in order to undermine anything he taught, but rather the New Covenant still involves following the Mosaic Law (Jer:emiah 31:33). God's law was given for our own good in order to teach us how to be blessed (Deuteronomy 6:24, 10:12-13), so those under the law have no need to be redeemed from the law, but rather we had the need to be redeemed from our lawlessness. In Titus 2:14, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to redeem us from the law, but in to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through his ministry and through the cross (Acts 21:20). The Spirit does not have the role of leading us to rebel against the Father, but rather the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey His law (Ezekiel 36:26-27). In Galatians 5:16-18, Paul described the law that we are not one as being a law where our sinful desires caused us not not to do the good of obeying God's law that we want to do, which is the law of sin.I hear what you're saying. For me, it makes a huge difference that Jesus lived under the old Covenant, we live under the new. From Galatians,
When the fullness of the time came, God sent out his Son, born to a woman, born under the law
If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
Paul said he was not outside the Law of God, but under the Law of Christ, so he was not contrasting them, but rather he was equating them, and the Mosaic Law is the Law of God, which is the Law that Christ spent his ministry teaching his followers how to obey by word and by example.The construction in 1 Corinthians 9:21 is different, but if we say that it is referring to the law of Christ, then I'd say that it is contrasting the law of Christ with the law that some people are under, which I assume is the law of Moses.
It is true that Christ is God, but it doesn't follow that everything true of God is true of Christ.
The Lord says to my Lord, “Sit at my right hand,
until I make your enemies your footstool for your feet.”
Psalm 110
Sorry for my late response, it's been a busy couple of days.I see the 10C as only the beginning per Rom13:9 "and if there is any other commandment" which I see as our call to study His Word - His Law.
I don't see the Sabbath as any different from the other nine Commandments, except it is the one commandment that deals with our time. It shows our devotion and faith to our Creator by remembering to keep His Sabbath holy Exodus 20:8 and while we should spend time with God throughout the week, the Sabbath is different because the whole day is dedicated to honoring the Lord Isaiah 58:13 and for me the spiritual blessing I receive from Sabbath-keeping and how I was personally convicted for not keeping it and what God did for me, that I believe was a miracle to remove the obstacles when I repented so I could keep His Sabbath ,it's really special and a real blessing Isaiah 58:14 that so many people are missing out on, but more importantly, it's part of God's eternal unit of Ten that God personally placed together and keeping them shows obedience, love and faith. Exodus 20:6, John 14:15, John 15:10, Romans 3:31, Revelation 14:12Honestly, I'm not as strong on Sabbath as SDA or Messianics, but I'm not RCC and assuming Sabbath it's original Sabbath.
Well stated.NKJ Hebrews 6:1 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,
NKJ Heb9:13-14 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh,14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
- Dead works are an elementary teaching, which we're supposed to be beyond in our walk to maturity. We're in Christ and don't work with or for the adversary.
Also think about the transition into faith + works in James2 (good works) and how by works faith is made complete (perfected). Correlate this to his in-context discussion of the Royal Law / Freedom Law of Love Neighbor and how he correlates it to the 10C (James2:11) as Paul does. We've been freed from being under law which had sin lording over us due to the weakness in flesh (Romans). Now we're free (from sin's lordship) and lawful to Christ and not unlawful to God (1Cor9:21) doing righteousness per the Royal Law, which is simply a summary of the 10C and other applicable commandments that we are keeping - our Love for God. Even the verse that even the secular and many Christians use out of context, John8:32 is in the close context of remaining in His Word and being His disciples, and the broader context of overcoming sin, which is lawlessness and unrighteousness per Law.
- Note how dead works are related to our conscience. They begin in the mentality which relates to Jesus' teaching about sin in our thoughts at that level. So, think about where God's Law written in minds and on hearts is meant to work in a circumcised heart with a new spirit and His Spirit so we can keep His statutes (Ez36:25-27 and Christ re: the new birth John 3 and 1Pet1:23 re: born through the everlasting Word of God).
I see the law of liberty as the Ten Commandments James 2:10-12 and the Royal Law as the greatest commandments summarizing the Ten. James 2:8 We are probably slicing hairs here as I think we pretty much mean the same thing. When walking in the Spirit we are keeping God's law, His work Exodus 32:16 which is why it's the law of liberty free to walk in Christ, no condemnation, no sin instead of being slave to the work of his adversary who is the king of sin, the transgression of His law. 1 John 3:4, Romans 7:7See how James1:20-25 begins in the context of literally "accomplishing by work" God's Righteousness and proceeds to correlate the implanted word with the Perfect Law of Freedom. Then into James2 as he continues to talk about Law, he says the Royal Law, then a few of the 10C, then the Law of Freedom again. Back to James1:20-25 again, he says to be doers of the word, which he then explains as looking intensely into the Perfect Law of Freedom, which he then ties to being a work doer. James is defining a word and work doer as one who (BDAG Lexicon) 1. to bend over for the purpose of looking, w. focus on satisfying one’s curiosity, take a look; 2. to try to find out something intellectually, look (in, into) the Perfect Law of Freedom.
In my view this Perfect Freedom Law is the Royal Law is the Love Neighbor summary command of the 10C as both James and Paul relate it to, and as Paul elaborates to include "if any other commandment". So, who of us is looking intensely into this Love Neighbor Command and all that it summarizes so we can be word and work doers? IOW, who is keeping God's Commandments? IOW who is loving God and Neighbor and not seeing this as a burden we can longer carry now being in Christ in Spirit with all the capabilities He provides to both will and do for His good pleasure (Phil2:12-13)? Who is growing to maturity defined in Heb5 as one who's faculties are well exercised in judging both good and bad/evil? Who are the mature who are able to identify any sin and assist other caught up in it to be restored and thereby fulfill Christ's Law (Gal6:1-2) (Love God, Love Neighbor, Love one another as He loved us and gave Himself for us so we could have eternal life, which is correlated to knowing Him and obeying Him, which is loving Him)?
My guess is the antinomian is not the who. And the rest of us tie into a heritage of loving Him - His Law - His righteousness - as did our Lord and first-born Brother who loved righteousness and hated lawlessness (Heb1:9).
Will do!BTW, if you have some time and are so inclined, please give me some feedback on this post Romans 7
Thank you! I truly enjoy your posts and learn a lot from your in-depth studies.Thanks for the interaction. Much appreciated.
Right, the word for Fulfill has two different meanings. Possibly Jesus came to expound on the law, possibly he came to fulfill it in the sense that a prophecy is fulfilled.The way to show our for God is by acting in accordance with His nature, so for example, by following God's instructions for how to do good works, we are showing our love for God's goodness, and God's nature is eternal, so any instructions that God has ever given for how to love Him are eternally valid. Jesus fulfilled the law be teaching us how to correctly obey it by word and by example, which makes it that much more important for us to also fulfill the law by following his example, while there is nothing about him fulfilling the law that makes is no longer necessary to show our love for God by keeping His commandments in the Mosaic Law. As the NAS Greek Lexicon stated, pleroo refers both to causing God's will as made known in His law to be obeyed as it should be and prophecies to receive there fulfillment, so there is nothing about Mary not getting pregnant over and over that means that we should not continue to obey God's law as it should be obeyed in accordance with the example that Jesus set for us to follow.
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