Daniel and Revelation

[unbound]

In my studies of the Bible, I notice relation and similarities. I would like to share with you a few things I have found to be of significance, and hopefully others will comment on them, and we can learn more about scripture. I will be examinind the visions of Daniel, and also of John(revelation).
There is a verse in Rev. that got my attention and it caused a change in my way of thinking:

Revelation 11:8
And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified

If this is true that spiritual things are described with the names of the physical realm, then we can further apply this to the visions received by the prophets. Let us continue.

In Revelation we have three entities pertaining to the final destruction. We have the dragon -(1) the first beast which rose up out of the sea (2) and the second beast which rose up out of the earth-(3). In my understanding the dragon is satan, the first beast may be babylon(spiritually speaking which the sea of glass does contain) and the second beast is the anti-christ himself. (came up out of the earth) Now let us read the actual versus:




Revelation 13
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

Revelation 13:
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,


Now let us look at daniels vision, for it seems, that when he speaks of the countries of media, persia, and greece, he is actually describing differing kingdoms in heaven.

Daniel 8:
19 And he said, Behold, I will make thee know what shall be in the last end of the indignation: for at the time appointed the end shall be.
20 The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.
23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.
24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.
25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.
26 And the vision of the evening and the morning which was told is true: wherefore shut thou up the vision; for it shall be for many days.

I have more to add, but will see if there is any intrest so far.....

 

[Symes]

Keep going mate, see where it leads

 

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Unbound,

Now let us look at daniels vision, for it seems, that when he speaks of the countries of media, persia, and greece, he is actually describing differing kingdoms in heaven.

Daniel as with Revelation, has overlaps. A lot of what Daniel wrote about has been fulfilled. A lot hasn't, but will wait until another day.

The Princes you refer to as in Media, Persia, and Greece, are actually "Kingdoms of THIS world" that are run by the "powers and principalities in heavenly places". They are NOT kingdoms set up in heaven. Michael is the Archangel that watches over Israel. The "prince of Persia", is that EVIL spirit that would prevent Israel from reaching its goal of being reunited with God in righteousness. Today, I believe, that Prince is made manifested in the Islamic religion. I do not know about the OTHER princes.

But please continue your comparisons, it might prove interesting.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

 

[Palatka44]

GREAT POINT DAD! Oh sorry,

 

[unbound]

Ok, lets see. Where to start? Let me pull this straight out of the NT:

Matthew 24
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

So we see, at least THIS part of Daniel has not been fulfilled yet:

Daniel 9
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate

Daniel 11
30 For the ships of Chittim shall come against him: therefore he shall be grieved, and return, and have indignation against the holy covenant: so shall he do; he shall even return, and have intelligence with them that forsake the holy covenant.
31 And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
32 And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits.

Daniel 12
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

What makes me think that daniels visions have yet to come is this:
Daniel 10:
12 Then said he unto me, Fear not, Daniel: for from the first day that thou didst set thine heart to understand, and to chasten thyself before thy God, thy words were heard, and I am come for thy words.
13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.
14 Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days.
20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince

And also Daniel 10:
20 Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the prince of Persia: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.
21 But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince

What and where is this prince of persia? For even Michael did fight there. This reminds me of the versus in the Bible that mention a war in heaven.

I also notice the mention of the Kings from different directions, N,S,E,W. And I wonder, does it have any resemblence to this:

Ezekiel 1:
4 And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire.
5 Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man.

And also:
Revelation 4:6
And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

Now I know the sea of glass is Gods footstool :

Isaiah 66:1
Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

And the angels are what holds back the four corners thereof:

Isaiah 11
11 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the Lord shall set his hand again the second time to recover the remnant of his people, which shall be left, from Assyria, and from Egypt, and from Pathros, and from Cush, and from Elam, and from Shinar, and from Hamath, and from the islands of the sea.
12 And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
13 The envy also of Ephraim shall depart, and the adversaries of Judah shall be cut off: Ephraim shall not envy Judah, and Judah shall not vex Ephraim.

Revelation 7:1
And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

Following my line of thought, is there any way satans kingdom may be divided into four parts within the sea?

Im still not closed-minded to media, persia, and greece being actual kingdoms on earth, but I just want to be sure so I can carry on, for I dont want a faulty presumption. As you can see, I try to cross-reference other passages to get the full meaning.

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Unbound,

There is a cliche known among Christians: "The New (NT) is in the Old (OT) concealed, the Old is in the New revealed. We must always keep that in mind. Now take a look at this verse:

Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

So in analyzing any of the OT prophecies, we SHOULD BE ABLE to find a correlation to the "Revelation of Jesus Christ". Actually much is written throughout the whole New Testament regarding the end times, and ALL OF THE NT might be considered His "revelation" to us.

Regarding the "Covenant" in Daniel 9, can you show me "where" this covenant is revealed in the NT?

Regarding the 7 last years of Daniel's 70 weeks, can you associate that time frame with anything in the NT?

You may also want to look carefully at Deut 4:26-31. I believe it correlates well with Daniel 9, Romans 9-11 and Eph 1-3.

Keep up the good work.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

 

[unbound]

"Regarding the "Covenant" in Daniel 9, can you show me "where" this covenant is revealed in the NT?"

It looks like the "covenant" is the remission of sins, through Christ. It seems that there will come a time when all who are not sealed by God shall be cut off from any remission of sins, therfore;

Daniel 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.


I can not find correalation in time frames. Perhaps this time frame was not repeated in Rev?

But read here about the hosts of heaven, and how they are cast down, along with stars. In Rev, we see that Satan drew with him 1/3 of the stars, or hosts of heaven. So therfore, I see this chapter pertaining to the heavenly realm.

Daniel 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.
10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.
11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of the sanctuary was cast down.
12 And an host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practised, and prospered.
13 Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot?
14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

 

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Unbound,

Thank you for responding. Indeed the "covenant" mentioned in Daniel is the "New Covenant" mentioned here:

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Hebrews 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

I agree with you about Satan being cast out of heaven with 1/3 of the host of heaven. This occured at the cross, perhaps as early as when Jesus said: "I saw Satan fall...."

As for the 7 years, the Messiah was to come at the END of the 69th week. His purpose was to "restore Israel to righteousness with God", but half way through the final week, they killed Him. His intent is STILL to save "All Israel" as mentioned in Romans 11, and will see to it that it is done "through us" (See Rom. 11:31-32) during the last 3 1/2 years known as the "Great Tribulation" in the NT.

You are doing well.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

 

[vinsight4u]

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[Knee V]

There are a lot of points made here, but I'll just comment on one, and that is the dichotomy of the 70 weeks. In the english we read "70 weeks ARE determined". But that's not the case in Hebrew. Indeed the word weeks (or 7's) is a plural word. It would make sense for a plural verb to follow. But the word translated ARE is not "are", but "is", singular. 70 weeks "IS" determined. Not 70 separate weeks, but a whole, a unit. It is a unit of 70 weeks, not a bunch of weeks put together that can be broken up.

That's all I really feel like saying right now. I kind of grow weary of the same old same old. I don't think that any of us here really intend to have our minds changed. So I won't drag it out.

 

[Symes]

When one is dealing with Daniel it is best to start off at Daniel chapter one and go through it chapter by chapter.

To do otherwise will only end up in confusion.

Jumping in at chapters 9, 10, or 11 will not help explain what the book is about.

Just a tip in passing. Daniel and Revelation in a nut shell is about who do we give our allegiance to?

 

[vinsight4u]

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[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Unbound,

I believe vinsight4u has attributed this to you, so I do have some comments on it:

unbound

The beast/man of sin/ac is the he that will confirm the covenant in Daniel 9:27.

The "Beast" is actually a "system" or a particular "spirit of a "system". The man of sin is the false prophet, HE is a man that arises from within the Christian church. The A/C is a "spirit" NOT just a man, there are many anti-christ spirits.

I have asked about the "covenant" that is mentioned in the NT. It is established by Christ. Satan is nowhere shown to establish a "covenant" with anyone. If you read Dan 9, using correct grammer rules, the "he" mentioned actually refers to Messiah. The reason being is that we can cancel out "of the prince which is to come", because it is a modifier, like an adverb or an adjective to the word "people". However, "he" must have an antecedent that correlates with it, generally meaning the same gender and number. So "he" requires an immediate prior mention of an individual, a single male, and a noun. The "prince" is the first "antecedent" that might be considered, but it is a "modifier" of the word "people", which is the immediate possible antecedent to precede the "prince", but that noun means "more than one", so it cannot be the "he". This leaves only Messiah as the next immediate "antecedent" to which the word "he" would apply. So the "he" in Dan 9:27 refers to Messiah.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

 

[unbound]

Dad Ernie,

It is my opinion that the prophets were witnesses to God and His creation. What they saw were "plays" put on for them to be able to prophesy with those who will listen. The bible is consistant, and the prophets reports are in harmony.

You mentioned the a/c being a spirit, and a man. I agree. However, the miracles he will do will not be as great as ressurecting any dead people. This is how we will be able to tell the difference.

We have 3 spirits in Rev. . We have the dragon, the first beast, and the second beast. The first beast has lived before, but was wounded, and DID heal. Now the SECOND beast will appear and cause all to worship the first.

We have indicators which we can apply and perhaps identify one or more of these beasts. The dragon is self explanatory. And his seat is the spiritual realm of this universe.

The first beast came up out of the sea. The second beast came up out of the earth. Any clues as to the meaning of "sea" and "earth"? When we understand what the "sea" really is, we can understand with a little more clarity. Thanks for your thoughtful replies.

 

[Dad Ernie]

Greetings Unbound,

It is my opinion that the prophets were witnesses to God and His creation. What they saw were "plays" put on for them to be able to prophesy with those who will listen. The bible is consistant, and the prophets reports are in harmony.

I sort of see, as you do, that what the OT prophets saw was in the "spirit" much as John's book of Revelation. However, I would caution that "their" perception of what was to come to pass was often cryptic to them because Jesus had not yet been revealed. Also one of the things many attempt to do today is push the prophecies to the end of time (Jesus 2nd coming) when in fact many, if not most, were fulfilled at His 1st Coming. I see Daniel as having seen pretty clearly the events up to the Lord's 1st advent, but after that he was only given a "glimpse" in the broadest of terms of the "far" future. He was told to "seal up the vision".

In Revelation we see that the Lamb of God, was able to "open" the seals once again and revealed a more clear picture to John. But you will also note that at the time of the 7 thunders, John was ALSO told to seal up the vision. So I think that means that at about the time of the 7 thunders, God will once again reveal MORE to His saints. God never does anything until He first reveals it to His prophets.

You mentioned the a/c being a spirit, and a man. I agree. However, the miracles he will do will not be as great as ressurecting any dead people. This is how we will be able to tell the difference.

Several years ago - 20-25 years, I listened to a Christian broadcast on the radio that told of 3 ministers or evangelists that had heard of a man (I believe it was in Germany) that was supposed to be the "antichrist". These men flew over there to meet this man. Upon entering his office, this man was facing away from them and as he turned, all three agree that they perceived an extremely evil persona that made them want to run, but when he was fully turned, he appeared radiant and beautiful and all three wanted to bow down and worship him. After the interview, this supposed "antichrist" took them out to a field. He lifted up his hand and a dove lit upon it. He looked at the dove and it exploded in a flame of fire. He led them to a gravesite, and he made some gesters and comments and spoke to the person in the grave. The dirt moved aside and the person arose, completely alive.

Since that time, I sometimes have wondered about its veracity. I have not been able to verify that story from independent sources. But I do know that human bodies can be inhabited by demons, and I also believe Satan has the power "on this earth" to "raise up the dead".

As I have said, I do not see the antichrist as a particular individual, but a "spirit" that inhabits/controls numerous antichrists.

We have 3 spirits in Rev. . We have the dragon, the first beast, and the second beast. The first beast has lived before, but was wounded, and DID heal. Now the SECOND beast will appear and cause all to worship the first.

We have indicators which we can apply and perhaps identify one or more of these beasts. The dragon is self explanatory. And his seat is the spiritual realm of this universe.

The first beast came up out of the sea. The second beast came up out of the earth. Any clues as to the meaning of "sea" and "earth"? When we understand what the "sea" really is, we can understand with a little more clarity. Thanks for your thoughtful replies.

I have not verified this through any extended study, but I seem to go along with those who believe that often the term "sea" refers to "humanity" as a whole in symbolic language.

As for the sea/earth contrast. This is what I "currently" think about it:

Remember that the Beast received what appear to be a mortal wound. Now flash back to the Tower of Babel. They all had one language and one spirit. God stepped in an quashed that "spirit" by dispersing everyone and changing everyone's language so they could no longer communicate. This is a "spirit" that arose out of the sea of humanity. Now flash forward to Mystery Babylon. Here again the similarities are quite literally frightening in drawing an anology between the two. Babylon derives its name from Babel, for one. It is a united "spirit" encompassing the whole world of humanity. "out of the earth", to me, simply means that it was once dead, or at least mortally wounded, but has been resurrected "out of the earth". IOW it was once dead and is now alive.

If you can come up with any better explanation, please let me know.

Blessings,

Dad Ernie

 

[seangoh]

Dad Ernie,
Any clues as to the meaning of "sea" and "earth"?

"The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. " Rev 17:15

Since “sea” represents peoples and nations, “earth” may reasonably be assumed to represent a sparsely settled region.

I agree with what Symes said. Interpretation of Revelation would be easier if we consider these 3:
1) Look for clues within Revelation itself (eg..Identify what Euphrates mean)
2) Look for allusions to the OT (eg..Cyrus as he conquered Babylon)
3) Look at how NT handles a similar concept (eg. kings of the East. How is "east" handled in the NT?)

Based on the 3 criterion, it would seem that to fairly interpret Revelation, we need to know the inside out of the whole Bible. Sounds disappointing doesn't it?There's no hard and fast rule in studying Revelation.

 

[unbound]

Lets do some reading about the "sea". It helps when we can find references to what it contains. Follow my understanding if you will.

Rev 4:6 And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind.

Rev 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.
14 And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

So this "sea" is set before the throne. And it is a firmament upon the heads of these angels. Here are a few more re-enforcing versus.

Ezekiel 1:22 And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living creature was as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above.

This is the firmament described here.
Gen 1:8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so

Now, let us see that the "sea" which is spread out before the throne is the whole of Gods creation, for we read here :

Isaiah 66:1
Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool: where is the house that ye build unto me? and where is the place of my rest?

And also:

Hebrews 10
12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;
13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


Here we see in Rev the fulfillment of Hebrews 10:13

Revelation 15:2
And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

I will post some more verses that relate to this, if anyone is interested. I hope you will find that I am not out in left field, as I have desired to understand the word of God.

Thank you all for debating these topics.