Daniel 9:27

clemenslee said:

To be honest I'm going down a road with this subject that I originally said in my OP that I wouldn't go down. And that the question was mainly concerned with who establishes the covenant with many?

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Right. Christ.
Try untangling the passage and that seven years will be from when Christ started his ministry to when he was Crucified, which is where the sacrificial system was fulfilled. Then three and a half years after that the persecution started and the Gospel spread from the Jews to the Gentiles. To the Jews first, and then also to the Greeks. That was the reason that the new covenant had to be made with the many... Jews. They had a three and a half year start, so to speak. At least that is how I interpret it and it also fits in with verse 24 and "your people", the Jews.

Next the Temple is destroyed in 70 A.D. and later the Roman Empire dies but neither event is a part of the 70 weeks. Luke specifically associated the Romans to the abomination. From what I remember, the term the Jews used for the Roman eagle could also be translated as vulture. So "where the corpse is the Romans are" could very weil be true.

Hope this helps a bit.

clemenslee said:

Notrash, what is referenced in deut. Seems to me and I could be wrong, referenced to the whole house of israel. Daniel was making a plea for the house of judah and the Jews. The 10 tribes Israel have already went into captivity under Assyria.

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The other tribes were permitted to return also. Even so, there were devout men from all over the land living in jerusalem at tge time of Jesus.

And ecen so, since the trubes of judah had been decimated in 70 AD, the reinhabitation leading up to 135 AD wouldhave come from tribes of Israel living in other parts of the world. Also , note that to a jew of judah, an intermarried person of the tribes of Israel were same as goy/gentile and were considered not the people of god as per hosea 1.

The prpphecy in daniel which emphasisez the degree of the trouble says that then will be the times of trouble that have not been since there was a nation, nor would ever be (implying to the time of the nation). The mosaic civt natiin began @ 1500 bc and had its latter end in 70/135 AD. 1948 /or 1967 has nothing to do with any bible prophecy or restored mosaic covt nation. Something that is 'utterly destroyed' has had its latter days and latter end is over and dine.

Read the book of deuteronomy in one or more sittings, imagining yourself standing besides moses as hes making the stipulations and temporary implucations of the contract and thus the natiin. See deut 5:25,26; 31:29 & 32:20,29.

Notrash,
don't write while lying down. It seriously affects your spelling. lol

The things you said are mostly quite good, but some details are lost.

Muddle,
it's pretty good. The last verse is apparently not connected to the events of Messiah and his redemption and sacrifice. All the others are.

"Associated to the Romans" is vague. If Israel was destroyed, it was for an abomination they created. Mt24:15 says it was the person who tried to lead the revolt from the temple, building on Dan 8:13, where the rebellion taking place in this vision is called the 'rebellion that desolates.' That would not be Rome, would it?

What happens in the generation after the Gospel event is that a generation of israel is given the choice of being in mission for the new covenant Gospel, or fighting for what is really a restored old covenant, using any desperate means possible. It was a tragic failure.

Notrash said:

If you follow the context of Dan 9 within the events prophecued for the mosaic covt in the book of deut, then Daniel is making the confessiin of the babylonian captivity bei.g the curse of the law of moses descri ed in Deut 28:15-30:5. That confession and call to renemberence is required in deut 30: 1-5 to enact the return and release from babylon & captivity in preparation for the circumcisiin and inscription of the geart throughthe coming new covt in deut 30:6-19. Paul affirms this to refer to Jesus and his new law of faith in rom 10:6-10.

Thus, the historical context of the reason for daniels prayer supports that "a covenat" was prophecied to be made by God after returning from babylon. The angel injects 483/490 yrs between vs 5 & 6 of deut 30.
Secondly, grammatically, "HE" must refer to messiah since no other subject is introduced in the context.

vs 24-27 are written in the original language as gebrew poetry, thus the rules of overlapping informatiin.apply to these verses.

The events withi. the 70th week ending in @ 33 AD were the cause which would EFFECT the stoppage of the sacrifice and oblation and destruction of the temple.

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I like how you are thinking some of those things through. You are one of the actually few sharp as well as well informed minds on here.

But that is not enough. You are still reading some things into others that only appear the same in the absence of your same detailed labor on those parts that only appear the same.

One means to solving for that is to always attempt to go in as if all you have come to know is not the case. This way you avoid the sometimes resulting false-positive that going into the text with all that prior information previously concluded on, if not sometimes read into, and or taken for granted as already solved for, can sometimes result in.

For example, what you related about Romans 10:6-10 appears off to me given my own, continuingly exhaustive study of Romans 9-11 simply through the Word, as I find most commentaries are clueless as to what to do with those three chapters or how to approach them.

As they are basically taking up the issues concerning Israel's status before God in their all day disobedience, what I have seen in 10:6-10 or thereabouts is the same issue Paul touches on in the latter half of 2 Cor. 3... Jews confessing the Lord out of their Torah, their hearts blinded to the obvious for their failure to acknowledge that He was the One come down from glory that Moses and the Prophets did say should come, see John 1, 5, and 8.

In fact, any time I see images of Jews at the Wailing Wall, I cannot but pause to reflect on this issue.

Thus, in contrast to Daniel's praying of their Law, Romans 10 is a stinging indictement against Israel in its failure - "they sought it not by faith." 10 reads like a promise, but is not. Rather, it is a promise they failed to seize.

Anyway, enjoyed your post, as comparison of findings is always better than the biting and devouring one another some insist on inciting in one by their one size fits all conspiracy notions going in to their every post.

The best to you in the above.

Two issues that many right off ignore is what the Lord may have meant in John 5:43 and also the extension in time related at the beginning of Luke 13. I forget who's dates it is that lays out Acts 1-7 as that same extended time, which to my understanding is that extension in time the Lord's "Father forgive them, for they do not know what they do" bought them. If so, this might possibly have changed Daniel's timeline.

clemenslee said:

Dougg,

The time, times, and half times is nominally 3 1/2 years, but not exactly 1260 days. In terms of days, there is no way to know exactly.
The only definition I can find that gives us a definition is 2 peter 3v8 in which says a day with the lord is as a thousand years. Greek for day is hemara- which has several definitions in which "Time" is one of them. The translators just chose day because that was what was commonly used during that time of translating. I think most commentaries that you read will agree with what I am saying. So could time equal a 1000yrs? Just thought I would throw that out there you be the judge.

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Revelation 11: the two witnesses prophesy 1260 days and then are killed and lay in the streets of Jerusalem 3 1/2 days - that establishes the days are literal.

Revelation 12: after the 1260 days of two witnesses, there is the war in heaven, the first step in a process of the kingdoms of this world becoming the Kingdoms of God and of his Christ. Satan finds himself cast down to earth having but a short time left (12:12) - which is the time, times, and half times, before Jesus returns at which time Satan is bound and cast into the bottomless pit.

Since the 1260 days + 3 1/2 days + the unspecified time for the war in heaven will have been used up before the time, times, and half times begin, it is not possible to quantify the term exactly. That's why the term is used.

"time, times, half times" term is a "nominally" 3 1/2 years, not exactly 3 1/2 year, nor 1260 days, nor 42 months. For example 2x4 piece of lumber is nominally 2x4, but if you were to actually measure it, you would find that the real dimensions are 3 1/2 inches x 1 1/2 inches.

Peter was not giving a defintion of what a "time, times, and half times" is.

btw, the term 3 1/2 years in not found in bible prophecy either. It is just often used a convenient mechanism to facilitate discussion..

The 7 years are 2520 days. The 1335th day in Daniel 12 is day 2520, the day that Jesus returns to earth in Revelation 19 and Zechariah 14. Where does scripture say that 1335th day in Daniel is day 2520? and also are you sure that the 70th week is 7 years? because the word "week" used in the 70th week is different than "week" used in the previous 69 weeks.

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The 1335th day is the day that Jesus returns based upon the context of the verse in Daniel 12:12. The 7 years, the last week of the 70th week, in terms of the 360 day year is 360 days/year x 7years = 2520 days.

It is necesssary to convert the 7 years to days in order to construct a timeline of events, which many of those events are expressed in days.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

The confirmation of the covenant is for one week. The one week is 7 years.

Not only is the 7 years stated in the text of Deuteronomy 31:10-13, but the 7 years following Gog/Magog in Ezekiel 39 is the same 7 years. The reason is because in Ezekiel 39 there are two feasts by the birds and beasts. The first is the feast on Gog's army, in Ezekiel 39:4. The second, seven years later, is the feast on the armies gathered together to fight Jesus, in Ezekiel 39:17-20.

Therefore, the AOD will be setup 1335 days before the day Jesus returns. Which works out to be on day 1185 after the confirming of the covenant as day 1 of the count. Daniel is very clear its 1290 days after the sacrifices have ceased on the temple mount that the AOD is set up. there is no 1185 in scripture.

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You have misunderstood the text about there being 1290 days between the sacrifices being stopped and the AOD setup.

The stopping of the daily sacrifice is tied to the transgression of desolation (this is not said in Daniel 12, you have to go to Daniel 8:11-13).

The transgression of desolation (an act) is transgression of the covenant, when the man of sin goes into the temple sits and claims to be God (2thess2:4).

It is called transgression in Daniel 8 because the person will be a Jew, which his act is a transgression of the covenant.

The abomination of desolation (an object because it is "set up") is different. It will be a statue image of the person, in the standing position, which will be placed in the temple, (Revelation 13:13-15).

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

The 1290 days is anchored in the text at its beginning to the abomination of desolation (the statue image) setup. So the 1290 day count begins on the day the abomination of desolation statue image is setup.

The only timeframe that has an anchor in the text of Daniel 12:11-12 relavent to the 7 years is the 1335th day, which if a person remains faithful to that day he will be blessed. Which there is no other option except to be the day that Jesus returns.

So the day that Jesus returns is the point of reference. 1335 days before then, the AOD statue image will be setup. The 1185 is a calculated day on the 7 year timeline. It is not stated in the text.

Then 1290 days after day 1185 on day 2475 of the count, the events of the 6th seal take place, the cosmos parts, and the world sees Jesus before the throne of God, with the intent to carry out judgement, the Sign of the Son of Man in heaven in Matthew 24:29.

day1...............day 1185 (AOD setup).................day 2475 (1290 days)..............day 2520 (1335th day)

Again there is no scriptural support for the 1290 days to somehow nesseccarialy be the 6th seal of revelations.

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There is scriptural support which I have provided all the explanations in terms of a timeline and the events that must take place, The understanding of the 1290 days, how it fits in, could not be known back in Daniel's day because Revelation was not given until the first century.

Interplanner said:

Muddle,
"Associated to the Romans" is vague. If Israel was destroyed, it was for an abomination they created. Mt24:15 says it was the person who tried to lead the revolt from the temple, building on Dan 8:13, where the rebellion taking place in this vision is called the 'rebellion that desolates.' That would not be Rome, would it?

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Lu 21:20, to me, is the parallel passage to Mt24:15: the armies were the abomination that made desolate. Matthew was writing to the Jews and Luke was writing to a much broader audience. Therefore Luke interpreted a bit. The Christians in Jerusalem and vicinity around 70 A.D. understood this to be the case and headed fer the hills. This starts another clock, BTW, "and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled." When that time is up isn't specified for reasons Matthew brought out.

Because of Lu 21:20, Matthew 24:28 ("Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.") seems to be a direct allusion to the Romans and my memory vaguely remembers that the (Roman) eagle/vulture wordplay was used that way in non-scriptural writings. In other prophecies in Daniel, the fourth beast seems to indicate Rome. True, there seems to be a double meaning there, but for the main fulfillment it was Rome.

I don't have time to think on Lu 21:20 more deeply, but offhand it seems like the Roman armies could be said to merely be a sign for when the Jews did a bit of desolating themselves. However, check Josephus about how the Temple was destroyed at the end by the Roman soldiers against orders.

My comment


70 weeks of years .... 490 360 day prophetic years, 12 months of 30 prophetic days in each year decreed for Daniel's people Israel

69 of the 70 transpired at the Lord cutting off and rejection by Israel [this time lapse began in 457 BC] [the conversion from the Julian calendar to prophetic years must be made]

Then all of the visions prophets go silent with their projections .... not one has any event upon the earth recorded until the beginning of the 70th still pending [Example: Daniel 11:35 ........ 11:36]

A week of years [Jewish heptad] is equal to 2520 24 hour days

The week is divided up into two 1260 days segments, a time, times, and 1/2 time [3.5 years each]

The time segment pending also includes an additional 30 days and 45 days

The battle of Armageddon will take place in the next 30, and the Lord's gathering and separation of the mortal survivors of the same will take place over the next 45 days

And then His millennial kingdom will begin on the earth and last for 1000 prophetic years

The 2300 evenings and mornings or, 1150 days, fit within the second 1260 days of the 70th week

The additional 110 days of the second 1260 days will involve the initial placement and final completion of the setting up of the abomination of desolation on the temple mount, the 1150 days will then lapse to the end of the second 1260 days

The day for a year idea is not presented in scripture .... anywhere

Prophecy time lapse is consistent and does not change from the OT to the NT

The last 2000 years cannot be measured by making a switch to a different time lapse calculation

One must understand that the last 2000 years are not part of any prophet's visions

What is there is the unfulfilled portion which is all about the coming 70th week decreed for Israel, and beyond .... this period is still pending

The breach [prophetic silence] between the ending of the 69th week [483 prophetic years] and the beginning of 70th of the 7 prophetic years is still pending

The first 483 prophetic years can be precisely calculated .... so can the balance of the 7 prophetic years to come

The Lord has not revealed the start date for the 7 .... He is waiting for something and has been for the last 2000 years

There is no justification for changing the time lapse calculation of the first 483 to a "day for a year" basis for accounting for the last 2000 years from some arbitrary dating like 600 AD

I think this is what you are doing .... Ellis Skolfield offered this idea .... he was right about the Muslims, but not about attempting to force a different calculation [the day for a year] for predicting the dating of the coming tribulation

http://www.ellisskolfield.com/

Attempting to predict a dateing for the Lord's next intervention into the affairs of humanity is not a good idea especially since He has said that one cannot know

490 weeks of years .... 70 weeks of years x 7 .... 490 years

A week of years is 7 prophetic years

This basis does not change in scripture

The 70th week of 7 years is still pending

clemenslee said:

Exactly, a week of years is 7 prophetic years. because you count each DAY of a week as a year and there is 70 of these weeks of years or literally 70 7's. So you have a day for a year principle, but per your post "The day for a year idea is not presented in scripture .... anywhere" how can that be. Cause if there wasn't my view point, your view point as well as majority of views on Daniel falls apart.

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No one counts each day of the week as representing a year in the prophecy to conclude that a week is 7 prophetic years.

The transliterated term is heptad in the original language, group of 7. The heptad in Daniel is "reasoned" to be "weeks of years" because "weeks of years" is the only possible interpretation that the messiah cutoff is Jesus.

Since there are 70 heptads, i.e. 70 weeks of years, one heptad in the Daniel 9 prophecy is 7 years. No-one goes through a day is year in coming to that conclusion. You are because I think you have some view that necessitates a day being a year.

clemenslee said:

Yes i have read some of Ellis Skolfield as well as others, but I ask how can you say 483 years can be precisely calculated if there is no day for year in scripture? we have to use a day for year to make a week of literal 7 days equal 7 years. 7x70=490. you seemed to have skipped past that in you reply.

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Back in Jesus's day it may have been possible to calculate the exact number of days, incorporating the leap months as well into the calculations, but....

the Catholic church tinkered with the calendar and altered the calendar such that recreating the countdown from the time of the order given to rebuild Jerusalem to Jesus's being cutoff not possible by simply converting the years, to weeks, to days using the current calendar system.

I also think the Jews have some accuracy problems with their calendar as well for that period, as I have discussed this with them. I don't remember the details.

I think that many of Jesus's day did have a general concept of the prophecy (but I don't think that they were counting down days) and thus was one of the reasons why the disciples thought that Jesus was the messiah - the promised great king of Israel. They did not conceive of the messiah as the Savior from their sins, that they might have eternal life, however.

Exactly, a week of years is 7 prophetic years. because you count each DAY of a week as a year


Nay .... a week of years is 7 years .... you do not count each day as a 360 day prophetic year .... this would return 2520 years for just one of the 70 weeks of years

70 of the heptads would then = 176,400 years

Suffice to say the exact time lapse from the going forth of the decreed to rebuild the city of Jerusalem and to the Lord's cutting off from 457 BC to 33 AD was 483 years

Hence, this same method of calculation must be applied to the remaining 70th week of 7 360 day years, or 2520 24 hour days

You cannot switch the method of calculation for the purpose of trying to stretch it into the day for a year idea .... and make 2520 days into years for application

Skolfield did this to arrive at 1948 from Mohammed's venture in 600 AD

Even at that, the 70th week did not begin .... and is still pending as we speak

So Ellis was wrong

William Miller of the SDA tried the same to arrive at 1844, but was also wrong

Two different applications using the day for a year principal, but both wrong