Daniel 9:27

[clemenslee]

This is my first post on the forum. So hello to everyone! So here we go, Daniel 9v24-27:

24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.


Verse 24 - States 6 things to be fulfilled during the 70wks of Daniel, but i'm mostly concerning the first 3 especially 2 & 3.

1: To finish the transgression - Which I believe means God restrains the 70 yr punishment listed in Jeremiah, Indeed that's what the prayer Daniel makes prior to these verses is about.

2: To make an end of sins - This meaning to literally seal up the sins that got them in the condition of punishment to begin with. As we would say "That chapter is closed and now we start a new chapter" Doesn't mean they (Jews) would never sin again, but just that the sins that got them there would be sealed up.

3: Make reconciliation for Iniquity - I believe "reconciliation" means to Cut a Covenant or to ratify a covenant as listed in Jeremiah 31v31-34. not only was this a ratifying to bring them back to the land, but also to bring them back to relationship with God through Christ which we all have the promise of. Our sins and iniquities are sealed up and removed.

Daniel 9v27 states: (KJV is used above) - And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week.

I don't want to get into a debate about how long the One week is, but I want to focus on who the He is and what covenant are we talking about.

So my Question is, could the he referred to Christ? The reason why I ask is because of the following: 1 - The style its written seems to follow a pattern. V26 has 2 parts ex: 1A- And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: 1B - and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

V27 has 2 parts ex: 2A - And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: 2B -and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

2 - The word "confirm" in v27 - means to strengthen or to add strength/support to something. I doesn't seem to be the prince from 1B indeed I do not recall anywhere in scripture that a evil prince (Anti-christ, or anything of the sort, this not a discussion whether there is a anti-christ etc.) that strengthens any existing covenant.

3 - There is a definite article at least in the KJV before covenant which is "THE" - THE Covenant - which implies a specific covenant at hand, not "a covenant" which give a general meaning to it, but this is specific. Which if it is specific then - what covenant? This is where I believe Daniel 9v24 comes in to answer the question of the covenant. Its the same covenant that is not only granted to the Jews (Judah) but also us, which is to ratify or reconcile the covenant through Christ that our sins and iniquity will be seperated from us and sealed up so that we can come into right relationship with God the father!

So this was long winded to Just ask the question is the He that confirms the covenant Christ? Hope to read some replies. Thanks, and God Bless!

 

[random person]

1. Seventy weeks from the commandment - Dan. 9:23-27.

2. Finish the transgression and make an end of sin - Heb. 10:12; Eph. 2:15.

3. Bring everlasting righteousness - Rom. 3:21-31.

4. Reconciliation for iniquity -Col. 1:20; Heb. 2:17.

5. Anoint the most Holy-Acts 4:26-27; Heb. 1:8-9.

6. The Messiah cut off - Isa. 53:8; Acts 8:32-33.

7. Destroy the city and sanctuary - Matt. 24:1-34.

8. Covenant confirmed with many - Acts 10:34; Rom. 9:30.

9. Seal up the vision- indicating the completed vision by its fulfillment in the events specified.

That the confirmation of the covenant in the prophecy refers to the inclusion of the Gentiles is show by the connection of Rom. 9:30-33 and I Pet. 2:1-10, both of which passages show that the covenant of Isa. 28:16 includes the Gentiles, and finds fulfillment in Peter's statement in Acts 10:34 at the house of Cornelius: "of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him."

The terminating point of the prophecy is shown to be the destruction of Jerusalem as foretold by the Lord in Matthew 24, and settled by his own quotation from Daniel's prophecy, in verse 15 - and form this, to the believer in Christ, there can be no appeal. It should be observed that Daniel did not say that the Messiah would be cut off in the midst of the week - the passage says that "the Messiah shall be cut off, but not for himself." The expression "in the midst of the week" is connected with the causing of the sacrifices and oblations to cease after the covenant was confirmed with the Gentiles. The phrase "in the midst of the week" does not indicate the middle of the week, but during the week. The Messiah was cut off at the crucifixion of Christ, finishing the transgression, making an end of sin, making reconciliation for iniquity, and bringing in the covenant for everlasting righteousness - but among the Jews the sacrifices, oblations and all the services of the temple continued until the destruction of Jerusalem. It was that event that should "cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease," and the reason given was "for the overspreading of abominations...even until the consummation." And this event would be the sequel to the confirmation of the covenant with the Gentiles. Read the whole passage of Daniel 9, verse 27: "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading \of the abominations he shall mike it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured out upon the desolate." Thus the destruction of Jerusalem was the terminating point of all the event within the seventy weeks of Daniel, covering the conclusion of the exile, the ushering in the the gospel times, the consecration of the Messiah to his redeeming office, and the end of all the temple services with the termination of the Jewish state.

- by Foy E Wallace

 

[Straightshot]

"So my Question is, could the he referred to Christ?"

No doubt

There are two princes presented in the vision .... the Lord [the Messiah Prince], and the other prince that shall come

The Lord is the first "He" who is cut off in vs 26 and who confirms His covenant with Israel, and the people of the second "he" are those who will come to desecrate

This same contrast is repeated in vs 27

This vision related to Daniel's people is still pending .... and the associated events will all take place during the future 70th week of the 70 weeks of years for a believing remnant of the nation

These are in the land today and in place for the experience that is coming

 

[clemenslee]

Thanks for the replies Guys!

Random Guy - The only problem I see with stating that the destruction of the Temple in Matthew 24 is the end point is that its not all there was in the olivet discourse. Indeed the destruction of the temple was for told by Christ that it would happen after he was gone, but it goes on to say that the Jews would see the abomination spoken of by Daniel standing were it ought not and that they should flee when they see it. So I guess maybe you are saying that the destruction of the temple in 70ad is the abomination that makes desolate?

 

[vinsight4u]

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[vinsight4u]

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[random person]

Thanks for the replies Guys!

Random Guy - The only problem I see with stating that the destruction of the Temple in Matthew 24 is the end point is that its not all there was in the olivet discourse. Indeed the destruction of the temple was for told by Christ that it would happen after he was gone, but it goes on to say that the Jews would see the abomination spoken of by Daniel standing were it ought not and that they should flee when they see it. So I guess maybe you are saying that the destruction of the temple in 70ad is the abomination that makes desolate?

Definitely. See also Daniel 12:1,7:

And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And I heard the man clothed in linen, which was upon the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand unto heaven, and sware by him that liveth for ever that it shall be for a time, times, and an half; and when he shall have accomplished to scatter the power of the holy people, all these things shall be finished.

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Matthew 24:34

And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judæa flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.

Luke 21:20-24,32

 

[Douggg]

So my Question is, could the he referred to Christ? The reason why I ask is because of the following: 1 - The style its written seems to follow a pattern. V26 has 2 parts ex: 1A- And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: 1B - and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.

V27 has 2 parts ex: 2A - And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: 2B -and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

The prince who shall come follows the destruction of the city and sanctuary (70 AD), so the prince is not Jesus.

The covenant in Daniel 9 that will be confirmed for 7 years by the prince who shall come is the Mt. Sinai covenant.

There is a requirement in Deuteronomy 31:10-13 that Moses made for all future generations to confirm the Mt. Sinai covenant, that God gave the promised land to the Children of Israel forever, be done every 7 years (in the text), by doing a commemorative reading of Moses' orders to go in and possess the promised land.

The little horn coming out of Europe, arriving in Israel, right after Gog/Magog, is that prince who shall come, and will be perceived by the Jews as their messiah, and anointed the King of Israel - thus becoming the Antichrist.

He is the one who will oversee the commemorative reading on the temple mount, thereby confirming the Mt. Sinai covenant for 7 years. Not presently done because the Muslims control the temple mount.

 

[clemenslee]

How long are you saying time, times and a half is? and how do reconcile that with Daniel being told to seal up the vision till the time of the end and the 1290 days and 1335 days?

 

[random person]

How long are you saying time, times and a half is? and how do reconcile that with Daniel being told to seal up the vision till the time of the end and the 1290 days and 1335 days?

Time, times, and a half is 1290 days or 3.5 years?

The Great Tribulation.

45 days later in the 1335 days is speaking to the Christian Jews that obeyed Christ and fled Jerusalem's destruction in A.D. 70 and the mass slaughter that commenced.

 

[clemenslee]

Random Guy - Daniel 12 says the abomination is set-up. Matthew 24 says "it stands" in the holy place. You are telling me that the destruction of temple in 70 ad is the abomination of desolation. and if that is the case what has been on the temple mount for 1290 days. or 3.5yrs, if I understand you correctly you are saying the destruction of the temple by rome is the Great tribulation?

 

[Douggg]

How long are you saying time, times and a half is? and how do reconcile that with Daniel being told to seal up the vision till the time of the end and the 1290 days and 1335 days?

The time, times, and half times is nominally 3 1/2 years, but not exactly 1260 days. In terms of days, there is no way to know exactly.

The 7 years are 2520 days. The 1335th day in Daniel 12 is day 2520, the day that Jesus returns to earth in Revelation 19 and Zechariah 14.

Therefore, the AOD will be setup 1335 days before the day Jesus returns. Which works out to be on day 1185 after the confirming of the covenant as day 1 of the count.

Then 1290 days after day 1185 on day 2475 of the count, the events of the 6th seal take place, the cosmos parts, and the world sees Jesus before the throne of God, with the intent to carry out judgement, the Sign of the Son of Man in heaven in Matthew 24:29.

day1...............day 1185 (AOD setup).................day 2475 (1290 days)..............day 2520 (1335th day)

day 2475 is 45 days ahead of Jesus's descent down to earth in Revelation 19.

During the 45 days, in Revelation 16, the kings of the earth are convinced to gather their courage and assemble their armies at Armageddon to fight Jesus. Which they assemble and move down to Jerusalem to surround it and take hostages, Zechariah 14.

On day 2520, Jesus descends down to earth and executes judgment on them in Revelation 19.

One of the reasons the time, times, and half times cannot be known exactly to the day is because there is a leap month involved somewhere in the 7 years to make up for the 365 day year. But we have no way of knowing
at what point exactly.

 

[random person]

Random Guy - Daniel 12 says the abomination is set-up. Matthew 24 says "it stands" in the holy place. You are telling me that the destruction of temple in 70 ad is the abomination of desolation. and if that is the case what has been on the temple mount for 1290 days. or 3.5yrs, if I understand you correctly you are saying the destruction of the temple by rome is the Great tribulation?

Jerusalem was under siege for 3.5 years from A.D. 66 to A.D. 70. The Great Tribulation.

But it wasn't the complete end of the war, the First Jewish-Roman War lasted another 3.5 years when it officially ended in the siege of Masada. somewhere between A.D. 73-74.

 

[muddleglum]

I'm not too interested in prophecy as such. However, I basically agree with Random Person with the exception of one small detail. Christ started his ministry 3.5 years prior to the crucifixion in 30 A.D.. A different clock started for the generation and 40 years later the disaster of 70 A.D. came about. The seventy weeks ended 3.5 years from the crucifixion. Maybe we agree or disagree more than I think, but red fonts are hard to read.

From what I gathered from those verses I guessed that the persecution started by Steven and Saul started from that time. Much later after that provisional conclusion, a coin was found that helped me date when Saul was converted and a little guesswork led me back to the persecution again. They were close enough that I think I could call that the defining end of the seventy weeks.

The future events are entwined in that prophecy, which is what is confusing. I'm not too interested in all this, as I said, but if you hang around the Lord long enough you might find out if that conclusion is well backed up or not. Just don't get hung up on prophecy. It's pretty amazing, true, but we should be mainly looking forward to the future.

 

[Straightshot]

[2 Peter 1:16-21]

Good advice? .... or not?

Why do you think the Lord has revealed?

Maybe nothing else better to do?

 

[clemenslee]

Dougg,

The time, times, and half times is nominally 3 1/2 years, but not exactly 1260 days. In terms of days, there is no way to know exactly. Where does scripture give us a definition of Time to equal a year. The only definition I can find that gives us a definition is 2 peter 3v8 in which says a day with the lord is as a thousand years. Greek for day is hemara- which has several definitions in which "Time" is one of them. The translators just chose day because that was what was commonly used during that time of translating. I think most commentaries that you read will agree with what I am saying. So could time equal a 1000yrs? Just thought I would throw that out there you be the judge.

The 7 years are 2520 days. The 1335th day in Daniel 12 is day 2520, the day that Jesus returns to earth in Revelation 19 and Zechariah 14. Where does scripture say that 1335th day in Daniel is day 2520? and also are you sure that the 70th week is 7 years? because the word "week" used in the 70th week is different than "week" used in the previous 69 weeks.

Therefore, the AOD will be setup 1335 days before the day Jesus returns. Which works out to be on day 1185 after the confirming of the covenant as day 1 of the count. Daniel is very clear its 1290 days after the sacrifices have ceased on the temple mount that the AOD is set up. there is no 1185 in scripture.

Then 1290 days after day 1185 on day 2475 of the count, the events of the 6th seal take place, the cosmos parts, and the world sees Jesus before the throne of God, with the intent to carry out judgement, the Sign of the Son of Man in heaven in Matthew 24:29.

day1...............day 1185 (AOD setup).................day 2475 (1290 days)..............day 2520 (1335th day)

Again there is no scriptural support for the 1290 days to somehow nesseccarialy be the 6th seal of revelations.

 

[clemenslee]

Random,


Jerusalem was under siege for 3.5 years from A.D. 66 to A.D. 70. The Great Tribulation.

But it wasn't the complete end of the war, the First Jewish-Roman War lasted another 3.5 years when it officially ended in the siege of Masada. somewhere between A.D. 73-74.

What you are referring to here as stating is the tribulation the Great Tribulation also known as Jacobs trouble (Jeremiah 30, Daniel 12 and Matthew 24). My problem with where you say this occured. The 3 books of the bible listed stats that The Jews would never suffer persecution of this maginitude ever again, but yet 6 million jews during the Hollocaust were killed during WW2. Also he would bring them back to their land to possess it. They didn"t do that, after ad 70. No they went into the nations until 1948 when they became a nation once again. and reclaiming Jerusalem as their capital in 67.

 

[Straightshot]

The truth presented above is the preterist random's albatross

Let's see how he responds

My guess is that he will just dig a deeper hole for himself

 

[Notrash]

If you follow the context of Dan 9 within the events prophecued for the mosaic covt in the book of deut, then Daniel is making the confessiin of the babylonian captivity bei.g the curse of the law of moses descri ed in Deut 28:15-30:5. That confession and call to renemberence is required in deut 30: 1-5 to enact the return and release from babylon & captivity in preparation for the circumcisiin and inscription of the geart throughthe coming new covt in deut 30:6-19. Paul affirms this to refer to Jesus and his new law of faith in rom 10:6-10.

Thus, the historical context of the reason for daniels prayer supports that "a covenat" was prophecied to be made by God after returning from babylon. The angel injects 483/490 yrs between vs 5 & 6 of deut 30.
Secondly, grammatically, "HE" must refer to messiah since no other subject is introduced in the context.

vs 24-27 are written in the original language as gebrew poetry, thus the rules of overlapping informatiin.apply to these verses.

The events withi. the 70th week ending in @ 33 AD were the cause which would EFFECT the stoppage of the sacrifice and oblation and destruction of the temple.

 

[clemenslee]

I don't specifically hold on to a future 7 year period of great tribulation as might be the case with random views either. I don't see a need for gap to be inserted between the 69th and 70th week. As per my reply to dougg I'm not convinced that the 70th week is a 7 yr period.

To be honest I'm going down a road with this subject that I originally said in my OP that I wouldn't go down. And that the question was mainly concerned with who establishes the covenant with many?