• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Daniel 11

T

Time Watcher

Guest
Alexander the Great [Daniel 11:3-4]

The significant kings of the ancient northern Seleucid dynasty [north of Israel] .... and the coming little horn at the end of this present age

Antiochus the Great [11:6-19]

Philopator [11:20] [raiser of taxes]

Antiochus IV [11:21-35] [Antiochus murdered Philopator]

Antiochus IV did some of the things that the future little horn will do, but not all


Antiochus IV– desecrated Israel when forced by Rome to return from excursion against Egypt

Antiochus IV did not conquer Egypt and he died in Persia while on a military campaign

Antiochus IV did not consolidate the entire Middle Eastern region with 10 other kings


The coming little horn of Daniel 11:36 was not and will not be Antiochus IV

This little horn has not yet appeared, but will do so at “the time appointed”

He is the subject of [Daniel 7:7-25; 8:9-12; 8:23-25; 9:26-27 [the other prince that shall come]; 12:7]

The break in the vision in chapter 11 is between verse 11:35 and 11:36

This northern king is the one that Abaddon will possess and control at the time of the end [Revelation 9:11; 11:7; 13:1-4; 17:8-17]

Abaddon will do Satan’s [gog’s] bidding on the earth during the coming tribulation period [Ezekiel 38:39]

… but he will come to his ending at Armageddon [Revelation 19:20]

And the human little horn and his human followers [the Muslims of the Middle East] will be destroyed by the Lord in the battle [Revelation 19:21]

And Satan will be captured and sent to the abyss for 1000 years
 
Last edited:

dfw69

Pre-Tribulation Pre- False Messianic Age
Nov 16, 2011
8,273
828
Dallas/Ft Worth
✟86,373.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
And the human little horn and his human followers [the Muslims of the Middle East] will be destroyed by the Lord in the battle [Revelation 19:21]

Does it say in scripture that the Muslims are the followers of the little horn or it just an assumption ?


IMO even if there was a leader uniting the Muslims against Israel and Israel overcomes her enemies, it will not fulfill harmaggeddon

And the messiah ruling Israel in the aftermath won't be our lord but the first false messiah of many to come after
 
Upvote 0
T

Time Watcher

Guest
Daniel is not a sealed book .... it is written to be understood .... notice that his visitations were to bring him understanding as you read through his writings

The instruction to seal until the time of the end is a way of saying that the events projected will not take place until the time appointed ....the Lord has reserved the events for the time appointed and for His purposes .... no one can know the dating of the beginning of the time that is scheduled

The Bible prophets are all focused primarily upon the Middle East just as Daniel is .... from the flood forward, and at the time of the end of this present age .... read them with this perspective

Much of the content of the prophets projections have been fulfilled in the ancient past .... but there is a portion that is yet to be fulfilled

All of the content fulfilled can be verified by historical records with 100% accuracy

For example: the exact career of Antiochus IV is detailed in 11:21-35 and has already been fulfilled 100%

In fact Daniel's forecast is so accurate skeptics claim that the vision was written after the fact

All of the prophets reflect an extended breach in the time line of their visions ... in Daniel's case this breach can be found between verses 2:32 and 2:33; 2:39 and 2:40; 7:6 and 7:7; 8:8 and 8:9; 8:22 and 8:23; 11:35 and 11:36 [this same breach exists between the ending of the 69th week decreed for Israel, and the beginning of the 70th still pending] [Daniel 9:24-27]

There are two kings of the north in view separated by a very long time lapse [Antiochus IV, and the coming little horn] which still runs at this time and will continue until the Lord closes His age of grace primarily designed for the inclusion of the Gentiles of the nations as members of His ecclesia

When He is ready He will intervene and change this course with a focus upon a returned remnant of His nation of Israel in the midst of the nation's virulent enemies of the populations of the Middle East .... all of these are a mix of the ancestry of the ancient kingdoms who ruled in the region from post flood days

These populations are defined throughout the prophetic scriptures and as the same today .... the setting today is one of fragmentation and division

It is the coming little horn who will unite the Middle East once again .... his kingdom of iron and clay [partly strong ... partly brittle] .... and he will rule in the region with 10 other kings

He is called the "Assyrian" in scripture and his symbols are also of the lion, bear, and leopard representing the significant Middle Eastern kingdoms of the past [Micah 5:5-6; Revelation 13:2]

The prophetic descriptions of the populations of his kingdom are given using the ancient names of the past [Psalms 83; Ezekiel 38; 39]

These are not western nations or any other further migrations out of the Middle East to other lands .... all of them can be traced to Middle Eastern culture that still exists their today

The Lord has set a specific dividing between the descendants of Abraham which still exists to this very day; Isaac/Jacob [Israel] .... Ishmael and Esau [Israel's enemies round about]

The Middle Eastern states are principally all Muslim directed today

If you want to understand the prophets and their focus you must read their visions carefully ..... look for both their near and far projections, and you must gain a fairly in depth study of ancient and modern history

The Muslim intransigence against Israel is the very thing that will cause the Lord to bring Armageddon against them which will be fought in the Middle East

And it will be Jesus Christ who will lead the charge for sure .... and He will rule over the earth with His coming kingdom centered in Israel for 1000 years

There are many scriptures that attest to this truth that no careful reader can miss

I will answer you if you have reasonable related questions ..... I do detect some things I have seen in your postings that would lead me to believe your current interpretive overview may be prohibitive unless you are willing to change course
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
B

Bible2

Guest
Time Watcher said in post 1:

The coming little horn of Daniel 11:36 was not and will not be Antiochus IV

That's right.

And because the Antichrist will fulfill Daniel 11:31 antitypically (Matthew 24:15) and will fulfill Daniel 11:36 for the first (and only) time, then he will also fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 (the first part of it antitypically, and the rest for the first and only time) when he arises on the world stage, for that passage refers to the career of the same man. And since the Antichrist will fulfill all of Daniel 11:21-45 when he arises on the world stage, then just preceding his arising on the world stage, Daniel 11:13-19 could be fulfilled antitypically by an Iraqi Baathist General completely defeating and occupying Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath").

Time Watcher said in post 1:

The coming little horn of Daniel 11:36 was not and will not be Antiochus IV

That could be confirmed by Daniel 7. For in Daniel 7, the first 3 beasts (Daniel 7:3-6) represent the ancient empires of Babylon (lion), Medo-Persia (bear), and Greece (leopard). And the 4th beast, or 4th "king"/"kingdom" (Daniel 7:17,23), represents the ancient Roman Empire. And the 10 horns/kings which come out of it (Daniel 7:7,24) could represent 10 major kingdoms/nations today which came out the former territory of the Roman Empire, which consisted not only of Western Europe, but also the Middle East and North Africa. These 10 nations could be Germany, the U.K., France, Italy, Spain, Turkey, Egypt, Iraq, Algeria, and Syria. The 10 part-iron/part-clay toes of Daniel 2:42 could represent the same thing as the 10 horns of Daniel 7:7. The Europeans could be the iron, and the Arabs and Turks could be the clay. In Daniel 2:43, the inability of the iron to mix with the clay could represent how, for example, there are many Turks living in Germany, but they remain separated in ghettoes within German cities. Similarly, there are many Algerians living in France, but they remain separated in ghettoes within French cities.

But despite this social separation, which could endure indefinitely, the people of Western Europe on the one hand, and the people of the Middle East and North Africa on the other, could still one day put aside their political separation and become united into one confederation. For Daniel 2:42 refers to the 10 as a singular "kingdom". The person who brings this about could be the Antichrist. The arising of the "little" horn (Daniel 7:8, Daniel 8:9), which is "diverse" from the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24), could mean that the Antichrist will arise from a little country.

And the little horn arising from "among" the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:8) could mean that the Antichrist's country's territory used to be part of the Roman Empire. And before that, it was part of one of the 4 Diadochian Greek kingdoms which succeeded the Greek Empire of Alexander the Great (Daniel 8:8-9,21-25). The territory of these 4 kingdoms stretched from Greece over to Iran, and down into Egypt. So the Antichrist could come from the Middle East. He could be an Arab who will come from the little country of Lebanon, from the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4).

The Antichrist could start out by claiming to be a Baathist. After becoming the leader of Lebanon, he could peacefully gain control of a Baathist confederation of 3 of the 10 major nations (Daniel 7:24): Egypt, "toward the south" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9), and Iraq and Syria, "toward the east" of Lebanon (Daniel 8:9). This confederation could also include the minor nation of a United Palestine, i.e. a defeated Israel, "the pleasant land" (Daniel 8:9).

This Baathist confederation could be put together in the future by an Iraqi Baathist General who could completely defeat and occupy Israel and Egypt with a huge Iraqi Army (Daniel 11:15-17; in verse 17 the original Hebrew word translated as "daughter" is "bath"), but who could then mysteriously disappear (Daniel 11:19) shortly before the Antichrist arises on the world stage (Daniel 11:21-45). Years later, when the Antichrist gains control of all 10 of the major nations, he could appoint kings over them (Revelation 17:12) who will defer to him (Revelation 17:13), like when Napoleon gained control of different nations, he appointed kings over them who would defer to him.

Time Watcher said in post 1:

He is the subject of [Daniel 7:7-25; 8:9-12; 8:23-25; 9:26-27 [the other prince that shall come]; 12:7]

Regarding Daniel 9:26-27, in Daniel 9:26, the original Hebrew word (karath, H3772) translated as "cut off" can refer to when a peace treaty/covenant is "made" (Genesis 21:27). The first century AD fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a was at the Crucifixion, when the true Messiah, Jesus, made the New Covenant (Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 9:15-17). The future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a will be when the Antichrist makes a peace treaty, which will be the fulfillment of the covenant in Daniel 9:27 and the league in Daniel 11:23, with a future, ultra-Orthodox Jewish false Messiah in Jerusalem, after he and his followers are defeated by the Antichrist (Daniel 11:22-23). So the future fulfillment of Daniel 9:26a can refer to this false Messiah being "cut off" in the sense of being "covenanted", peace-treatied.

This treaty will allow this false Messiah and his followers to keep a 3rd Jewish temple which they will have built on Jerusalem's Temple Mount (after they or great earthquakes have destroyed the Muslim structures there), and to (mistakenly) continue to perform the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices in front of the temple for at least 7 years (Daniel 9:27a), so long as they give up the outer court of the temple (Revelation 11:2a) to the Muslims, so that the Muslims can rebuild the (by that time destroyed) Al Aqsa Mosque on the southern end of the Temple Mount and resume worship there. After "cutting" this treaty (Daniel 9:26a), the Antichrist could appear before the "many" (Daniel 9:27) nations represented at the U.N. General Assembly, and "confirm" (Daniel 9:27) that for at least 7 years he will keep this treaty with the ultra-Orthodox Jews in Jerusalem, using this as purported proof to the world that he's (in his words) "a man of peace, and no Hitler".

In Daniel 9:27, "he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" refers to when, only some 3.5 years after making the peace treaty of Daniel 9:26a,27a and Daniel 11:23a, the Antichrist will break the treaty, attack the 3rd temple, stop the daily Mosaic animal sacrifices, place the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the temple (Daniel 11:31, Matthew 24:15), and then sit himself in the temple and proclaim himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). Thus could begin the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9; 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

Time Watcher said in post 1:

And the human little horn and his human followers [the Muslims of the Middle East] will be destroyed by the Lord in the battle [Revelation 19:21]

Note that the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast), during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), won't support Islam in its past and current form, insofar as Islam affirms that Jesus is the Christ (e.g. Koran 4:157, Koran 4:171), whereas the Antichrist will deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22). And Islam affirms that Christ is in the flesh, whereas the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will deny that Christ is in the flesh (2 John 1:7). And Islam affirms that the God of the Bible (YHWH) is the true God, whereas the Antichrist (like the Gnostics) will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36). And Islam (mistakenly) affirms that no man can be God, whereas the Antichrist will say that he's God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). And Islam forbids the worship of any images (Koran 21:52, Koran 6:74), whereas the Antichrist will have an image made of himself to be worshipped (Revelation 13:15). And Islam rejects Lucifer (Satan) as being evil, whereas the Antichrist will bring the world into the worship of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) (Revelation 13:4, Revelation 12:9). So the Antichrist's religion during his 3.5-year worldwide reign won't be Islam in its past and current form, but a blend of Luciferianism and Gnosticism.

Nonetheless, before Lucifer gives the Antichrist power over all nations (Revelation 13:4-7), the Antichrist and the man who will be his False Prophet (Revelation 19:20) (who could be a secretly-apostate pope), could at first pretend to wholly support Islam in its current form (as well as Christianity), in order to start gaining a worldwide following.

-

The Antichrist himself could have grown up as a Druze Arab, in Lebanon, in the modern city of Tyre (Ezekiel 28:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:4). So he could at first present himself to the world as being of the (quasi-Islamic) Druze religion, which is waiting for the 2nd coming of a God-man named "Hakim". The Antichrist's last name could be "Hakim", and he could at first present himself to the Druze people as the fulfillment of the 2nd coming of this God-man. In this way, he could get the Druze to support him without question during an initial rise to power among the Arabs. The Druze Arabs could be the numerically "small people" of Daniel 11:23. The Antichrist could make them his completely-devoted bodyguard, and buy them many key positions of power within a future United Arab States (which the Antichrist could become the leader of in the first stage of his world takeover) and employ them as loyal spies and assassins at every level of his United Arab government and military.

The Druze religion is very secretive. What it teaches to its higher-level initiates isn't even taught to its lower-level initiates. What it could teach to its higher-level initiates could basically be Gnosticism mixed in with the Hakim God-man idea. The Antichrist himself, while outwardly a Druze, could inwardly be a Gnostic Luciferian. He could be a highest-level initiate of a worldwide secret society which ultimately teaches Gnostic Luciferianism, but keeps this a secret even from its own members who haven't been initiated into its highest level.

*******

Time Watcher said in post 4:

The prophetic descriptions of the populations of his kingdom are given using the ancient names of the past [Psalms 83; Ezekiel 38; 39]

If Psalms 83 wasn't referring to a threat against Israel in the time of Asaph (the author of Psalms 83), but to some future event, it may indeed not happen until the Gog/Magog attack on Israel (Ezekiel chapters 38-39). But the Gog/Magog attack on Israel won't occur until after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-10), when there will be no defensive walls or fear of attack in Israel whatsoever (Ezekiel 38:11). This is the exact opposite of today's situation, when Israel is filled with very high defensive walls, and is in constant fear of attack. At the beginning of the millennium, all present-day weapons of war will be destroyed, and they won't be allowed to be remade during the millennium (Micah 4:3-4). That's why after the millennium, the Gog/Magog armies will employ only rudimentary, wooden weapons like bows and arrows, spears, shields, and clubs (Ezekiel 39:9), which, after the defeat of the Gog/Magog armies, will be able to be used as convenient firewood by the people living in Israel at that time, instead of them having to go out and collect or cut down firewood from the forest (Ezekiel 39:10).

The Gog in Revelation 20:8 is the same as in Ezekiel chapters 38-39: an individual human leader whose personal name is "Gog" (Ezekiel 38:3). He could be born near the end of the millennium, and he will be killed and buried at the end of the Gog/Magog attack (Ezekiel 39:11). The Gog/Magog armies are defeated by fire from heaven in both accounts of the attack (Ezekiel 38:22, Revelation 20:9). While the great white throne judgment (Revelation 20:11-15) will occur subsequent to the defeat of the Gog/Magog attack (Revelation 20:7-15), nothing requires (as is sometimes claimed) that the great white throne judgment has to happen immediately after the defeat of the attack. For there will be at least 7 years (Ezekiel 39:9b) between the defeat of the Gog/Magog attack and the great white throne judgment.

Also, the Gog/Magog attack won't have to (as is sometimes claimed) involve only the nations listed in Ezekiel chapters 38-39. Those nations could be just a sampling. For the "nations" (ethnos), or peoples, who will be involved in the Gog/Magog attack will come from all over the earth (Revelation 20:8). They will still be physically part of Jesus' worldwide kingdom, still legally under his rule, just as they had been during the preceding millennium (Psalms 72:8-11, Psalms 66:3, Psalms 2). But after the millennium, they will be deceived by Satan into committing the attack (Revelation 20:7-10).

Also, while the Gog/Magog attack on Israel won't occur until after the future millennium (Revelation 20:7-10, Ezekiel chapters 38-39), Israel could suffer a different attack at the start of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which attack could result in Israel's total defeat and occupation (Daniel 11:15-17).

And Jerusalem could be attacked in the future at least 3 times before the millennium: once near the start of the future tribulation (Daniel 11:22), then again mid-tribulation (Daniel 11:31), and then at the tribulation's end (Daniel 11:45), right before Jesus' 2nd coming and the start of the millennium (Zechariah 14:2-21).
 
Upvote 0
B

Bible2

Guest
Anto9us said in post 3:

Is Daniel a "sealed book" even now?

No. For the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 is referred to in Revelation 12:14. And Revelation is an unsealed book (Revelation 22:10). So the meaning of the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 was unsealed by the time Revelation was written in the first century AD. Therefore, "the end" in Daniel 12:4,9 must be "the end" in the same sense as in Hebrews 9:26 (see also 1 Corinthians 10:11b), which shows that (in one sense) "the end" of the world had already begun at the time of Jesus' first coming and his crucifixion for our sins.

So Daniel 12:4b can be referring to many Christians, at anytime after Jesus' first coming and the writing of Revelation, going to and fro, going back and forth, between the still-unfulfilled parts of Revelation and Daniel, and these Christians increasing their knowledge of what's going to happen in our future by seeing how much these two books complement each other (cf. Isaiah 28:9-10; 1 Corinthians 2:13).

Also, Daniel 12:6,8 doesn't contradict the fact that the time of the end in Daniel 12:4,9 can begin before the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 and all the other "wonders" and "things" referred to in Daniel 12:6,8 have ended. For the "time, times, and an half" in Daniel 12:7 refers to only the specific time period of 3.5 literal years which would later be shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13), the detailed events of which have never been fulfilled. And Daniel 12:6 refers to the specific "wonders" that Daniel had just been told about in Daniel 11:2 to 12:3, which also include detailed events which have never been fulfilled (Daniel 11:31 to 12:3), including the church's resurrection into immortality (Daniel 12:2-3) at the time of the Antichrist's defeat (Daniel 11:45 to 12:3, Revelation 19:20 to 20:6), whereas Daniel 12:4,9 refers to a more general "time of the end" which began in the first century AD (Hebrews 9:26; 1 Corinthians 10:11b).

One part of Daniel that could have remained sealed until recently is the understanding of Daniel 12:11-12.

Daniel 12:11-12 and Revelation 16:15 could mean that 1,335 literal days after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31), Jesus' 2nd coming will occur, and blessed are those believers who wait and remain obedient until that day. If the literal 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-8, Revelation 12:6) will begin when the abomination of desolation is set up, and if the 7 vials of God's wrath will begin on the day after the 1,260 days of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 11:15,19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1), and if the first 6 vials will be poured out over 30 days, then the 6th vial could be poured out on the 1,290th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11).

It's on this 1,290th day that the blessing of Daniel 12:12 and Revelation 16:15 could be given, after the 6th vial has been poured out (Revelation 16:12), encouraging those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time to keep holding on just 45 more days until Jesus' 2nd coming on the 1,335th day. The 45 days could be taken up by the gathering together of the world's armies to Armageddon (Revelation 16:14,16) (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel) and then their moving south to pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus' 2nd coming and their total defeat (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:19-21).
 
Upvote 0
T

Time Watcher

Guest
Both your placement of the battle of Armageddon at the end of the Lord's coming millennial kingdom and you comment about the Muslims koranic recognition of Jesus as "the Christ" are bogus B2

The Koran flat out denies that Jesus is the Son of God ... do you not know that the Koran presents a corruption of the Bible .... reference is made to the Lord, but the conclusion is false

Do you not see that Ezekiel 38; 39 matches identically with Revelation 19:11-21?

.... and where is your bird feasting and clean up by Israel in conjunction with Revelation 20:9?

I see your off course of line of logic by what you say and the reason that compels you

You are a post-tribulation presenter which gives you the latitude to insert your proprietary many membered "manchild" company into the coming tribulation period .... this is your MSOG teaching

You must necessarily displace the battle of Armageddon to the end of the Lord's millennial kingdom rather than just before the beginning of the same .... your problem .... it does not fit there

And you must do this because there will be believing mortal survivors of the battle of Armageddon who will be separated out from the other mortal survivors .... and these believing mortals will inhabit and reproduce in the Lord's coming millennial kingdom upon the earth

If your story of a post tribulation "rapture" was true [which it is not] .... there would be no believing mortals left to populate the kingdom .... Matthew 24:29-31 and 25:31-46 have no "resurrections" for any of the subjects involved .... both are gatherings of the surviving mortals of the days of the tribulation

This truth forces the Lord's "harpazo" action for His ecclesia to just before the beginning of the tribulation

And this truth destroys your entire teaching of a collective "manchild" grouping of believers that you call the "church" [the "woman" of Revelation 12] who will enter and remain impervious to the wiles of the tribulation ... those who do become believers during the tribulation will be overcome by Satan's beast and killed for their faith just as Revelation reveals

So as I watch you post I see your ambition included in all that you say which is directed to the false Pentecostal MSOG latter rain corruptions of Revelation 12

The "woman " is the nation of Israel, the "manchild" is the Lord, and the devil is the devil in Revelation 12
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

zeke37

IMO...
May 24, 2007
11,706
225
✟35,694.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Alexander the Great [Daniel 11:3-4]

The significant kings of the ancient northern Seleucid dynasty [north of Israel] .... and the coming little horn at the end of this present age

Antiochus the Great [11:6-19]

Philopator [11:20]

Antiochus IV [11:21-35]

This king did some of the things that the future little horn will do, but not all


Antiochus IV– desecrated Israel when forced by Rome to return from excursion against Egypt

Antiochus IV did not conquer Egypt and he died in Persia while on a military campaign

Antiochus IV did not consolidate the entire Middle Eastern region with 10 other kings


The coming little horn of Daniel 11:36 was not and will not be Antiochus IV

This little horn has not yet appeared, but will do so at “the time appointed”

He is the subject of [Daniel 7:7-25; 8:9-12; 8:23-25; 9:26-27 [the other prince that shall come]; 12:7]

The break in the vision in chapter 11 is between verse 11:35 and 11:36


I cannot see a break in kings from verse 21 on.

can u show me why u say it is at v36?
JTF says the same thing,
and I would like to now your reasonings

imo he comes into the picture as the vile king in v21

show me where that vile king ends and he begins?



 
Upvote 0

zeke37

IMO...
May 24, 2007
11,706
225
✟35,694.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
The split in Daniel 11 comes in verse 13.

after certain years

thy people

Links to Daniel 10:14 /latter days/thy people

The little horn comes in verse 21 /chapter 11.
so are u thinking that the final generation begins at v13?

I believe the littlehorn cones in around v21 as well.
 
Upvote 0

zeke37

IMO...
May 24, 2007
11,706
225
✟35,694.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
Both your placement of the battle of Armageddon at the end of the Lord's coming millennial kingdom and you comment about the Muslims koranic recognition of Jesus as "the Christ" are bogus B2

The Koran flat out denies that Jesus is the Son of God ... do you not know that the Koran presents a corruption of the Bible .... reference is made to the Lord, but the conclusion is false

that seems to give credit to the anti part of antichrist.
Islam denies His deity,
denies God had a son,
denies God in the flesh,
denies the cross,
says Jesus was a man only, that will come back and die

add to that, the badge of jihad, which is actually probably what John saw
which was wrongly interpreted as 666

it is today, literally, a badge or headband/armband with Arabic words on it
that says there is no God but Allah

and what John saw, was not greek numbers
but Arabic words
and read from right to left, the first 2 "6" make up the Arabic phrase "there is no God but Allah!"
the 3rd "6" is 2 crossed swords, the almost universal symbol for Islamic countries

Do you not see that Ezekiel 38; 39 matches identically with Revelation 19:11-21?
do u see that Ez38-39 are ALL Muslim countries?
well, u prob do, but do others see that?

when the hand of the Lord comes in Judgement in prophesy
can anyone here name ANY country except Muslim ones
that receive His wrath, written of in the Bible?

.... and where is your bird feasting and clean up by Israel in conjunction with Revelation 20:9?

I see your off course of line of logic by what you say and the reason that compels you

You are a post-tribulation presenter which gives you the latitude to insert your proprietary many membered "manchild" company into the coming tribulation period .... this is your MSOG teaching
i'm a post tribber, that often disagrees with B2,
and I have never heard of MSOG,
and B2 has said the same.

who? u mention Pentecostals later....is that who msog is?

plus, I do not share B2's view on Rev20 or Rev12.
he is almost unique
in that he is a post tribber and believes the man-child is anyone but Christ

around here, it's usually pre tribbers that claim the man-child is the church
raptured to heaven before the war in heaven/Satan cast out

almost all other post tribbers agree (as do I) that the man-child is a reference to Christ, just shy of 2000 years ago

You must necessarily displace the battle of Armageddon to the end of the Lord's millennial kingdom rather than just before the beginning of the same .... your problem .... it does not fit there
I think the Lord fights in Ez38-39, so it IS the day of the Lord
not just before it.

And you must do this because there will be believing mortal survivors of the battle of Armageddon who will be separated out from the other mortal survivors .... and these believing mortals will inhabit and reproduce in the Lord's coming millennial kingdom upon the earth
many folks argue against that (I am one)

If your story of a post tribulation "rapture" was true [which it is not] .... there would be no believing mortals left to populate the kingdom ....
why would post or pre determine that?
we kow that at the resurrection and rapture, ALL FLESH is changed. 1Cor15

so some Hebraisms are misunderstood by some like u I guess.
like how age wont be an issue then, or how a child can play with a deadly snake
or that the carnivore and herbivore will sleep together, etc.

that's all because all flesh has been changed.

sure there will be survivors, but no one will be in the flesh

Matthew 24:29-31 and 25:31-46 have no "resurrections" for any of the subjects involved .... both are gatherings of the surviving mortals of the days of the tribulation
baloney, Mar13 is the same teaching, and it has those gathered from heaven and earth

that is exactly what happens at the "rapture"

we even have clouds and a trump to go along with a gathering from heaven and earth!

hmmmm. the facts are adding up TW
how long before u leave pre trib like I and many others here did

This truth forces the Lord's "harpazo" action for His ecclesia to just before the beginning of the tribulation
lol, the Lord says the opposite many times

And this truth destroys your entire teaching of a collective "manchild" grouping of believers that you call the "church" [the "woman" of Revelation 12] who will enter and remain impervious to the wiles of the tribulation ...
remember that his view is almost unique among post tribbers
so don't paint us all as having that interp.

those who do become believers during the tribulation will be overcome by Satan's beast and killed for their faith just as Revelation reveals
imo Rev does not reveal that for sure....maybe...
blanket statements like that do not prove your case.

So as I watch you post I see your ambition included in all that you say which is directed to the false Pentecostal MSOG latter rain corruptions of Revelation 12
I don't think he's Pentecostal.
plus, most Pentecostals, around my parts anyway, are pre tribbers

The "woman " is the nation of Israel, the "manchild" is the Lord, and the devil is the devil in Revelation 12
yep...even "we" can see that
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
T

Time Watcher

Guest
"I cannot see a break in kings from verse 21 on.

can u show me why u say it is at v36?"



You already have my view in the OP .... why ask again?

Daniel 11:21-35 gives the exact career of Antiochus IV … then vision jumps directly to the time of the end and the little horn of 11:36

I would suggest that you study the historical record of Antiochus IV of what he did, and did not do

Daniel 11:21-35 is an exact account of the rule of Antiochus IV

The little horn will do similar things that Antiochus did related to Israel [the desecrating] … but he will do other things that Antiochus IV did not do

Antiochus IV was never able to conquer Egypt …. the little horn will

Antiochus did not rule with 10 other kings

Antiochus did not sweep away many who will oppose his rule of the Middle East in the far east and far north

Antiochus IV did not die in the Israel as the little horn will … Antiochus IV died in Persia on a military incursion
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

zeke37

IMO...
May 24, 2007
11,706
225
✟35,694.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
CA-Conservatives
"I cannot see a break in kings from verse 21 on.

can u show me why u say it is at v36?"




You already have my view in the OP

Daniel 11:21-35 gives the exact career of Antiochus IV … then vision jumps directly to the time of the end and the little horn of 11:36

but again, the text does not show a different king coming into play
all the kings before him, came to an end and it is stated
so perhaps your view is wrong.
I am not saying it is, but I cannot see a diff king coming in taking his place

I would suggest that you study the historical record of Antiochus IV of what he did, and did not do
it's not about that for me.
it's about whether there is one king over them from v21 till v35
and another diff king over them after that

or

whether it's the same king from v21 till the end

Daniel 11:21-35 is an exact account of the rule of Antiochus IV
u claim it is

but my point is that we can all argue what king means who, till we are blue in the face.
but we should ALL AGREE on the last one mentioned, right?
so tracing him backwards through Dan11 seems logical.

when I do that, it takes me strait through till v21.
in v20 there is the end of one king and the vile one takes his stead in v21
but after that, right till the end, same guy

The little horn will do similar things that Antiochus did related to Israel [the desecrating] …
so how do u know that the one in v21-35 isn't the similar things guy(littlehorn)?
after all, u just said their actions are similar

I just don't see the introduction of a new king (over them), after v21

perhaps u can show me where it is?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
T

Time Watcher

Guest
Well you just struggle on with it little zeke

There are some know the scriptures and the related historical accounts .... and their are some who know very little of either

Why would I bother to teach you anything .... you already know everything

So don't ask again, because you will get no answer

Maybe you should ask Walid Shoebat .... he knows

But you would just skoff and he-haw around with his answer to you

.... not to worry, some can just not learn things

Do I really care what you believe?

What do you think?

Those who argue just for argument's sake never accomplish anything worth while
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

toLiJC

Senior Member
Jun 18, 2012
3,041
227
✟35,877.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
Alexander the Great [Daniel 11:3-4]

The significant kings of the ancient northern Seleucid dynasty [north of Israel] .... and the coming little horn at the end of this present age

Antiochus the Great [11:6-19]

Philopator [11:20]

Antiochus IV [11:21-35]

This king did some of the things that the future little horn will do, but not all


Antiochus IV– desecrated Israel when forced by Rome to return from excursion against Egypt

Antiochus IV did not conquer Egypt and he died in Persia while on a military campaign

Antiochus IV did not consolidate the entire Middle Eastern region with 10 other kings


The coming little horn of Daniel 11:36 was not and will not be Antiochus IV

This little horn has not yet appeared, but will do so at “the time appointed”

He is the subject of [Daniel 7:7-25; 8:9-12; 8:23-25; 9:26-27 [the other prince that shall come]; 12:7]

The break in the vision in chapter 11 is between verse 11:35 and 11:36

This northern king is the one that Abaddon will possess and control at the time of the end [Revelation 9:11; 11:7; 13:1-4; 17:8-17]

Abaddon will do Satan’s [gog’s] bidding on the earth during the coming tribulation period [Ezekiel 38:39]

… but he will come to his ending at Armageddon [Revelation 19:20]

And the human little horn and his human followers [the Muslims of the Middle East] will be destroyed by the Lord in the battle [Revelation 19:21]

And Satan will be captured and sent to the abyss for 1000 years


it is not about historical persons in the prophecy, but it is about (the) possible settings with (the) corresponding spiritual workers/servants either in the Holy Spirit or under the influence/effect of the relevant outcrops/emergences of the evil spirit, for example, the true Saint knows one Lord God that his spiritual/religious fathers may not know (especially if they follow a human spiritual/religious tradition instead of God's), or, a covetousness hidden in a human spiritual/religious tendency/tradition may compel one or another spiritual worker to bereave many

Blessings
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

toLiJC

Senior Member
Jun 18, 2012
3,041
227
✟35,877.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
"it is not about real people"


Nay

You don't really believe what you say .... do you?

If so, how do you know?


excuse me for the short written omission - i already fixed it, the right expression is "historical persons(people)", not "real people", concerning your question, i am persuaded by the true Lord God as regards His Word which i witness

actually the perfect fulfilment of the prophecy is in the true Lord Jesus Christ, because He suffered once and for all in order to save the further/future complications and afflictions of the humans, that is why the faith should be only in Him and (in) His Heavenly Father

Blessings
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

toLiJC

Senior Member
Jun 18, 2012
3,041
227
✟35,877.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Private
That makes more sense

However, would you not think that Abraham, David, etc; are "historical people"

Maybe I am still missunderstanding ... I intend no offense to you

My listings of historical people and related events above are a very significant part of the Lord's prophetic word

Would you be willing to explain further?


excuse me for my inexhaustive testimonies/answers, because it was not given to me to fulfil the God's testimony quite exhaustively, but thanks to your questions now more detailed answer will be given, not that there are no historical persons in the biblical scripture(s), but exactly the instructive/edifying is the important there, because anyway it is not possible that the true Saints/Prophets/Righteous fall, neither They would ever pretend that They be renowned/celebrated, because They are aware that the full salvation and life's provision is the important - namely that all humans/souls be provided with abundant and everlasting lives in the true Lord God

Blessings
 
Upvote 0
B

Bible2

Guest
Time Watcher said in post 8:

Both your placement of the battle of Armageddon at the end of the Lord's coming millennial kingdom and you comment about the Muslims koranic recognition of Jesus as "the Christ" are bogus

Note that the Bible doesn't refer to any "battle of" Armageddon. And it hasn't been said that the battle of Revelation 19:19-21 will be after the millennium.

Revelation 19:19-21 and Revelation 20:7-9/Ezekiel chapters 38-39 are two different events, separated by over 1,000 years (Revelation 19:19 to 20:9). After the first event, Satan will be bound in the bottomless pit for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:1-3), whereas after the 2nd event, he will be cast into the lake of fire to suffer forever (Revelation 20:10).

Revelation 19:19-21 is the battle at Jesus' 2nd coming, which Zechariah 14:2-5 shows will occur at Jerusalem. After that battle will occur Jesus' physical reign on the earth (Zechariah 14:9-21) with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29). It won't be until after the 1,000 years are over that the Gog/Magog rebellion will occur (Revelation 20:7-9, Ezekiel chapters 38-39).

Time Watcher said in post 8:

Both your placement of the battle of Armageddon at the end of the Lord's coming millennial kingdom and you comment about the Muslims koranic recognition of Jesus as "the Christ" are bogus

Regarding "Armageddon", it's referred to in the context of the 7 last plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation chapters 15-16), the last stage of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, which last stage the world won't experience until after the never-fulfilled Revelation chapters 6 to 15 have been fulfilled. At the first vial, an awful sore will appear on only those people who will have received the Antichrist's mark and worshipped his image (Revelation 16:2). At the 2nd vial, the sea will become like the blood of a dead man, and every living creature in the sea will die (Revelation 16:3). At the 3rd vial, all surface sources of fresh water will become blood (Revelation 16:4). At the 4th vial, men will be scorched with fire shot out from the sun (Revelation 16:8). This would be a solar-flare coronal mass ejection of solar plasma, which could make its way down to the surface of the earth due to the earth's magnetic field being disrupted during a magnetic-pole reversal which could occur near the end of the future tribulation.

At the 5th vial, the whole world will be plunged into literal darkness (Revelation 16:10). At the 6th vial, unclean spirits like frogs will come out of the mouths of Lucifer (the dragon, Satan: Revelation 12:9), and the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of the beast), and the False Prophet (Revelation 16:13). And these unclean spirits like frogs will go forth and perform amazing miracles to convince the world's armies to gather together in an attempt to defeat YHWH (Revelation 16:14, Revelation 19:19). The Euphrates will dry up so that the armies of "the kings of the east" (Revelation 16:12) (i.e. the vast armies of China, India, Pakistan, Japan, Iran, Indonesia) can easily cross the riverbed and gather at the "place" called Armageddon (Revelation 16:16) (Har Megiddo: Mount Megiddo in northern Israel). Once they've gathered there, as only a staging area, with all the other armies of the world (Revelation 16:14,16), they won't wage battle there (that's why the Bible doesn't refer to a "battle" of Armageddon). Instead, they will travel south to pillage Jerusalem, right before Jesus returns and defeats them (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:19-21).

At the 7th vial, right before Jesus returns (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21), there will be a huge earthquake which will affect the whole world (Revelation 16:18-20), and 100-pound hailstones will pummel the earth (Revelation 16:21). The 7th vial will also be when Revelation's symbolic (and worldwide) "Babylon" (Revelation chapters 17-18) will be destroyed (Revelation 16:19).

Time Watcher said in post 8:

Both your placement of the battle of Armageddon at the end of the Lord's coming millennial kingdom and you comment about the Muslims koranic recognition of Jesus as "the Christ" are bogus

Note that Muslims do indeed recognize Jesus as the Christ (Koran 4:157, Koran 4:171, Koran 5:17, Koran 5:72, Koran 5:75, Koran 9:31). But they also say that Jesus Christ is only an apostle of God (Koran 4:171, Koran 5:75; cf. Hebrews 3:1), and not also the divine/human Son of God (Koran 4:171-172, Koran 5:17, Koran 5:72, Koran 9:30-31; contrast Hebrews 1:8). And they deny that Jesus Christ died on the Cross for our sins (Koran 4:157; contrast 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). The Antichrist won't support Islam during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), insofar as he will deny that Jesus is even the Christ (1 John 2:22). He will also contradict many other teachings of Islam, as was shown in the 4th section of post 6.

Even though Islam (in its current form) won't be the religion of the Antichrist during his future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign, Islam could be, since the latter half of the 7th century AD, Revelation 17:10's seventh empire (the Antichrist's empire will be a different, still-future, 8th empire: Revelation 17:11). Also, because Islam (falsely) claims that the (anti-gospel) Koran came through the angel Gabriel, it's one fulfillment of Galatians 1:8-9 (cf. 2 Corinthians 11:14).

Islam is an anti-gospel religion because, even though it affirms that Jesus is the Christ (e.g. Koran 4:157, Koran 5:17,75), it denies that Jesus is the human/divine Son of God (Koran 9:30, Koran 4:171, Koran 5:72). And it denies that he died on the Cross for our sins (Koran 4:157) and rose from the dead on the 3rd day. In order to be saved, people have to believe the gospel that Jesus is both the Christ and the human/divine Son of God (John 3:16,36; 1 John 2:23), and that he died on the Cross for our sins and rose from the dead on the 3rd day (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, Luke 24:46-47, Matthew 20:19, Matthew 26:28).

The reason that it's necessary to believe these things in order to be saved is because it was only as the human/divine Son of God that Jesus' suffering during his Passion could satisfy God the Father's justice (Isaiah 53:11), which requires an infinite amount of human suffering for sin (Matthew 25:46).

Jesus' suffering during his Passion was sufficient to forgive the sins of everyone (1 John 2:2), because Jesus isn't just a human, but also God (John 1:1,14, John 10:30, John 20:28). His soul is infinite, and so the suffering of his soul (Isaiah 53:11) was infinite in amount, even though it wasn't infinite in duration. And so his suffering could satisfy God the Father's justice (Isaiah 53:11, KJV; 1 Peter 3:18), which requires an infinite amount of human suffering for sin (Matthew 25:46). Because humans who aren't God have finite souls, for them to suffer an infinite amount for their sins, they must suffer over an infinite duration of time (Matthew 25:46, Revelation 14:10-11, Mark 9:46).

Every human has sinned (Romans 3:23), except Jesus (Hebrews 4:15b; 2 Corinthians 5:21). But because Jesus suffered for sins (1 Peter 3:18, Isaiah 53:11) an infinite amount, when the elect repent from their sins and believe in Jesus' human/divine sacrifice, they can have their past sins forgiven (Romans 3:25-26, Matthew 26:28), while God the Father's justice remains fully satisfied by Jesus' suffering for their sins (Isaiah 53:11, KJV; 1 Peter 3:18).

"He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied . . ." (Isaiah 53:11, KJV).

-

One way to help Muslims understand how Jesus can be God, from everlasting, is to question them about their understanding of the Muslim belief regarding the Koran. For Islam says that there was no time when the Koran didn't exist in a spiritual form in heaven, that it has always coexisted with Allah as his word. So Christians can show Muslims that the Bible says that before Jesus' incarnation, there was no time when he didn't exist in a spiritual form in heaven. He has always coexisted with God the Father as God the Word (John 1:1,14).

This isn't to suggest that the Muslim claim regarding the Koran is true, or that the book itself is true. Indeed, because Islam (falsely) claims that the (anti-gospel) Koran came through the angel Gabriel, it's one fulfillment of Galatians 1:8-9 (cf. 2 Corinthians 11:14).

Time Watcher said in post 8:

You are a post-tribulation presenter which gives you the latitude to insert your proprietary many membered "manchild" company into the coming tribulation period .... this is your MSOG teaching

Note that what has been presented hasn't been based on MSOG teachings (which have never even been looked at), but on the Bible itself.

Also, no claim has been made regarding being one of the 144,000 (the man child).

Also, it hasn't been said that the 144,000 are of any one denomination, but rather that they're one part of the church as a whole. I.e., members of the 144,000 can be spread across all denominations.

The 144,000 will be literal male virgins, never having had intercourse with women (Revelation 14:4), just as, for example, 1 Corinthians 7:25 refers to literal virgins. And literal male virgins can be found in all denominations.

Also, the number 144,000 in Revelation 7:4 and Revelation 14:1,3 will be a literal number of people, which will consist of literally 12 groups with literally 12,000 people in each group (Revelation 7:5-8). And even each group can be spread across all denominations.
 
Upvote 0