Crucifixion Dating of Jesus Christ

[Deafsilence]

Check my post again to see what I presented.

I take my testimony from the God-breathed Holy Scriptures (2Ti 3:16).
Only they are authoritative for the church.
And they present the following:

the lamb was slaughtered at twilight on Nissan 14 (Wednesday),
Jesus ate Passover, was arrested after the Passover meal and illegally tried at night (Thursday).
he was again tried, then crucified and placed in the tomb just hours, if not minutes, before the Sabbath (Friday),
he was in the tomb all of the day before the first day of the week (Saturday Sabbath),
he rose on the first day of the week (Sunday).

(See post #443 for the sequence logic.)

But see your saying that the lamb was slaughtered at "twilight on Nissan 14..". Which is correct, but then go on to say that Jesus wasn't crucified on that day. If so, then your preaching a Jesus that doesn't fulfill the command of Moses. Additionally, your ignoring the fact that on the 10th DAY, that the Jews had to select the lamb that they want killed. This happens here:

Mat 26:1 And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished all these sayings, he said unto his disciples,
Mat 26:2 Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.
Mat 26:3 Then assembled together the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders of the people, unto the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas,
Mat 26:4 And consulted that they might take Jesus by subtilty, and kill him.
Mat 26:5 But they said, Not on the feast day, lest there be an uproar among the people.

Now Jesus makes the claim that the Passover is AFTER two days. He doesn't say 3 days or 4 days. So then this PASSOVER that Jesus is speaking of is not the same as the Jews Passover and comes BEFORE the Jews Passover.

 

[Clare73]

But see your saying that the lamb was slaughtered at "twilight on Nissan 14..". Which is correct, but then go on to say that Jesus wasn't crucified on that day. If so, then your preaching a Jesus that doesn't fulfill the command of Moses.

Where do we find Moses giving commands to Jesus?

What I find is the chief priest and the elders saying, "not during the Feast" (Mt 26:5), and God saying "crucified during the feast" (Ac 4:28).

Additionally, your ignoring the fact that on the 10th DAY, that the Jews had to select the lamb that they want killed. This happens here:

Mat 26:1 And it came to pass, when Jesus had finished all these sayings, he said unto his disciples,
Mat 26:2 Ye know that after two days is the feast of the passover, and the Son of man is betrayed to be crucified.
Mat 26:3 Then assembled together the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders of the people, unto the palace of the high priest, who was called Caiaphas,

Mat 26:4 And consulted that they might take Jesus by subtilty, and kill him.
Mat 26:5 But they said, Not on the feast day, lest there be an uproar among the people.
Now Jesus makes the claim that the Passover is AFTER two days. He doesn't say 3 days or 4 days. So then this PASSOVER that Jesus is speaking of is not the same as the Jews Passover and comes BEFORE the Jews Passover.

Not when Jesus plans to celebrate Passover at someone's house, and the text makes clear (v.34) that he ate the Passover with his disciples the night before his crucifixion (Mt 26:18-30) on Friday.

 

[Deafsilence]

Where do we find Moses giving commands to Jesus?

What I find is the chief priest and the elders saying, "not during the Feast" (Mt 26:5), and God saying "crucified during the feast" (Ac 4:28).

Not when Jesus plans to celebrate Passover at someone's house, and the text makes clear (v.34) that he ate the Passover with his disciples the night before his crucifixion (Mt 26:18-30) on Friday.

Ok, well you and I don't need to discuss further if you don't believe that Jesus had to be crucified on the 14th. Don't be offended if I don't reply further to you, it is just that I have a lot of people that need responding to that share in the same logical analysis that my path is on. I may respond to things you post but will try and do so indirectly. I thank you for your responses and letting me know your position.

 

[Clare73]

Ok, well you and I don't need to discuss further if you don't believe that Jesus had to be crucified on the 14th. Don't be offended if I don't reply further to you, it is just that I have a lot of people that need responding to that share in the same logical analysis that my path is on. I may respond to things you post but will try and do so indirectly. I thank you for your responses and letting me know your position.

He could have died on the 14th (i.e., Thurs sunset to Fri sunset)
if the 14th began at sunset (Thursday),
if that were time enough to slaughter, roast, eat the Pascal Lamb (Passover meal), be arrested before daylight Fri (Nissan 14) and
crucified around noon on Fri (Nissan 14).

He could have both celebrated the Passover with his disciples and died on (fulfilled) Passover.

Hows that for obeying the law of Moses!

No wonder he had "eagerly" desired to eat that Passover with them! (Lk 22:15)

 

[Lulav]

Jesus never said He would be in the "Grave" for 3 days and 3 nights. He said He would be in the "heart of the earth". I don't think that equates with the earth.

Read my post again

Lulav said:
But that has nothing to do with him being in the grave or earth for three days and three nights. The time he spent hanging on the cross is not included in that time frame.

I believe this is the time from the time when the SINS of the World are laid upon Him, after the priests and elders make Him their scapegoat and decide to crucify Him.

I believe that happened just before he cried out Eli, Eli lama sabachthain!

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”

The Father acted as High Priest at this time and placed the sins of the world upon him and then left him alone because he is HOLY and can't be around sin.

This is typed by the fact that Barabas and Jesus are presented together (this represents the two goats as on the day of atonement). Jesus is playing the role of both Goats but we should understand the type.

Yes, the son of the Father and the other Son of the Father

From that point I believe He is in the Heart of the Earth. At that point He carries the condemnation of the world.

NO, it can't be counted until the sins are laid upon him which happened at the ninth hour.

Think of Jonah. God says if the watchman doesn't warn then the watchman will carry that burden of what is warned for. So Jonah by not warning Nineveh, is then carrying the burden or the sin of Nineveh. So there was no mercy for him should he run from God, his sin was not just running from God but the sin of Nineveh as well.

Glad you brought up Jonah.
Jesus said:

"A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas."​

​

For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; SO​

shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.​

​

belly - 'koilia' - womb, belly, stomach -figuratively the heart​

heart - 'kardia' - heart or inner being, not used in OT or NT for the organ​

17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish​

three days and three nights.~Jonah 1​

Now read on to Jonah's prayer and notice how it prophecies of the Messiahs journey.



1Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,
2And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
3For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.
4Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
5The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.
6I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.
7When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.
8They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.
9But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.
10And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.


Now look at the Psalms, These are surely prophetic as to Messiah

Psalm 16:10
For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol, nor will You let Your Holy One see decay.

Psalm 18:5
The cords of Sheol entangled me; the snares of death confronted me.

Psalm 30:3
O LORD, You pulled me up from Sheol; You spared me from descending into the Pit.

Psalm 116:3
The ropes of death entangled me; the anguish of Sheol overcame me; I was confronted by trouble and sorrow.

 

[Lulav]

So here is what I have stated all along:

1.) Jesus was crucified on the 14th of the month.
2.) He rose on the first day of the week.
3.) He was arrested after the Passover meal.

I believe the NT agrees with all of that.

#1There was not a synchronicity between the sects on which day was the 14th. If you read through the accounts Jesus states he wanted to keep the Passover with his disciples. They did that. But the next day was the one that the Pharisees kept as the 14th, this is why they said he needed to die before sundown and why they were looking to break his legs to make it happen.

#2 There is no witness to that, it is an assumption. The gospels state that the women went first to the tomb in order to complete the preparation of the body. They found the tomb empty. This was 'Saturday' night, just after sundown.
Since they could not be there during Shabbat there is no where it tells us that he had just arisen before they got there after sundown.

#3 Yes, after his Passover meal with his disciples.

 

[Clare73]

Read my post again

Lulav said:
But that has nothing to do with him being in the grave or earth for three days and three nights. The time he spent hanging on the cross is not included in that time frame.
I believe that happened just before he cried out Eli, Eli lama sabachthain!

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”
The Father acted as High Priest at this time and placed the sins of the world upon him and then left him alone because he is HOLY and can't be around sin.

You haven't forgotten that Jesus is the High Priest who offered the once-for-all atoning sacrifice, have you?

 

[Lulav]

You haven't forgotten that Jesus is the High Priest who offered the once-for-all atoning sacrifice, have you?

Why would you ask that? He could not be High Priest at that time, he was subject to the Father. You can see that the night in the garden before they came for him in John - read his prayers.

You can't be the sacrifice and place your own hands on yourself. I know it sounds convoluted but this is how it had to be.

 

[Clare73]

#1There was no a sychronicity between the sects on which day was the 14th. If you read through the accounts Jesus states he wanted to keep the Passover with his disciples. They did that. But the next day was the one that the Pharisees kept as the 14th, this is why they said he needed to die before sundown and why they were looking to break his legs to make it happen.

#2 There is no witness to that, it is an assumption. The gospels state that the women went first to the tomb in order to complete the preparation of the body. They found the tomb empty. This was 'Saturday' night, just after sundown.

Not according to Jn 20:1, where it was "the first day of the week."

 

[Clare73]

Why would you ask that? He could not be High Priest at that time, he was subject to the Father. You can see that the night in the garden before they came for him in John - read his prayers.

You can't be the sacrifice and place your own hands on yourself. I know it sounds convoluted but this is how it had to be.

Being subject to the Father didn't keep Aaron from being the High Priest.

What do you think being High Priest means?

 

[Deafsilence]

Read my post again

Lulav said:
But that has nothing to do with him being in the grave or earth for three days and three nights. The time he spent hanging on the cross is not included in that time frame.

I believe that happened just before he cried out Eli, Eli lama sabachthain!

And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, “Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?” that is, “My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?”

The Father acted as High Priest at this time and placed the sins of the world upon him and then left him alone because he is HOLY and can't be around sin.

Yes, the son of the Father and the other Son of the Father

NO, it can't be counted until the sins are laid upon him which happened at the ninth hour.


Glad you brought up Jonah.
Jesus said:

"A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas."​

​

For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; SO​

shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.​

​

belly - 'koilia' - womb, belly, stomach -figuratively the heart​

heart - 'kardia' - heart or inner being, not used in OT or NT for the organ​

17 Now the LORD had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish​

three days and three nights.~Jonah 1​

Now read on to Jonah's prayer and notice how it prophecies of the Messiahs journey.



1Then Jonah prayed unto the LORD his God out of the fish's belly,
2And said, I cried by reason of mine affliction unto the LORD, and he heard me; out of the belly of hell cried I, and thou heardest my voice.
3For thou hadst cast me into the deep, in the midst of the seas; and the floods compassed me about: all thy billows and thy waves passed over me.
4Then I said, I am cast out of thy sight; yet I will look again toward thy holy temple.
5The waters compassed me about, even to the soul: the depth closed me round about, the weeds were wrapped about my head.
6I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.
7When my soul fainted within me I remembered the LORD: and my prayer came in unto thee, into thine holy temple.
8They that observe lying vanities forsake their own mercy.
9But I will sacrifice unto thee with the voice of thanksgiving; I will pay that that I have vowed. Salvation is of the LORD.
10And the LORD spake unto the fish, and it vomited out Jonah upon the dry land.


Now look at the Psalms, These are surely prophetic as to Messiah

Psalm 16:10
For You will not abandon my soul to Sheol, nor will You let Your Holy One see decay.

Psalm 18:5
The cords of Sheol entangled me; the snares of death confronted me.

Psalm 30:3
O LORD, You pulled me up from Sheol; You spared me from descending into the Pit.

Psalm 116:3
The ropes of death entangled me; the anguish of Sheol overcame me; I was confronted by trouble and sorrow.

Again, He couldn't have had the sins laid upon him but by the Priests of Israel which happens even before He is put on the cross. We can prove this further. If He is the scapegoat (carrying the sins) then He must be lead into the wilderness by someone. That is the task of Simon of Cyrene:

Mat_27:32 And as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name: him they compelled to bear his cross.

The law required this:

Lev_16:21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:

So Jesus according to the law to be the SCAPE GOAT sacrifice (which has the sins laid upon it) must be lead into the wilderness and by a fit man. So this proves that Jesus was in the Heart of the Earth before He went on the cross - even as He was given the verdict to be crucified and even as He was being led to the wilderness to be crucified.

 

[Deafsilence]

#1There was no a sychronicity between the sects on which day was the 14th. If you read through the accounts Jesus states he wanted to keep the Passover with his disciples. They did that. But the next day was the one that the Pharisees kept as the 14th, this is why they said he needed to die before sundown and why they were looking to break his legs to make it happen.

#2 There is no witness to that, it is an assumption. The gospels state that the women went first to the tomb in order to complete the preparation of the body. They found the tomb empty. This was 'Saturday' night, just after sundown.
Since they could not be there during Shabbat there is no where it tells us that he had just arisen before they got there after sundown.

#3 Yes, after his Passover meal with his disciples.

I believe in the account of the Testimony of the Twelve that He was apprehended on the 4th day of the week and then above in the palace of Caiaphas through the evening of the 5th day and then was turned over to Pilate to be quartered the evening of the 6th day of the week. I'm using days as the Jews did where evening comes first and the morrow follows.

 

[Lulav]

Not according to Jn 20:1, where it was "the first day of the week."

Yes, she didn't leave her house until after sundown. So when she got there it was the first of the week. The first starts at sundown, not the next day.

 

[Lulav]

Being subject to the Father didn't keep Aaron from being the High Priest.

What do you think being High Priest means?

Aaron was not the Son of God.

 

[Lulav]

Again, He couldn't have had the sins laid upon him but by the Priests of Israel which happens even before He is put on the cross. We can prove this further. If He is the scapegoat (carrying the sins) then He must be lead into the wilderness by someone. That is the task of Simon of Cyrene:

Mat_27:32 And as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name: him they compelled to bear his cross.

The law required this:

Lev_16:21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:

So Jesus according to the law to be the SCAPE GOAT sacrifice (which has the sins laid upon it) must be lead into the wilderness and by a fit man. So this proves that Jesus was in the Heart of the Earth before He went on the cross - even as He was given the verdict to be crucified and even as He was being led to the wilderness to be crucified.

He wasn't crucified in the wilderness, but outside the camp.

Are you saying that Simon bore the sins?

However though for Yom Kippurim it is as said in Lev 16, but it was more than that, it was the sins from the beginning of time until the end of time that were laid upon him and only the Father could do so.

If it is as you claim then what kind of sign would that be? It was to be the sign of Jonah and that doesn't jive with what you've proposed.

 

[Lulav]

Again, He couldn't have had the sins laid upon him but by the Priests of Israel which happens even before He is put on the cross.

And just how and when did the High Priest do that? It couldn't be the 'Priests', only the High Priest as that was his job.

 

[Deafsilence]

He wasn't crucified in the wilderness, but outside the camp.

Are you saying that Simon bore the sins?

However though for Yom Kippurim it is as said in Lev 16, put it was more than that, it was the sins from the beginning of time until the end of time that were laid upon him and only the Father could do so.

If it is as you claim then what kind of sign would that be? It was to be the sign of Jonah and that doesn't jive with what you've proposed.

Anything outside the walls of Jerusalem is considered the wilderness. I'm saying that Jesus bore the sins. Simon fulfilled the role of the FIT Man in the verse:

Lev_16:21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send him away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness:

 

[Deafsilence]

And just how and when did the High Priest do that? It couldn't be the 'Priests', only the High Priest as that was his job.

This happened when they went to Pilate to get Pilate to crucify Him. They didn't have the power to crucify under Roman rule. It was taken from them. The High Priest did this. I say Priests because there were more than one chief Priests but Caiaphas was the High Priest at that time.

Mat 27:20 But the chief priests and elders persuaded the multitude that they should ask Barabbas, and destroy Jesus.

 

[Clare73]

Yes, she didn't leave her house until after sundown. So when she got there it was the first of the week. The first starts at sundown, not the next day.

Mary Magdalene was there near sunrise (Mk 16:2).

 

[Clare73]

Aaron was not the Son of God.

Relevance to office of High Priest?