Crowns, no crowns, comparison table

[Douggg]

The seven heads are seven kings. The ten horns are ten kings.
If you zoom out on your monitor, so all three chapters are shown at the same time, the comparison table is a little more easy to follow.


Revelation 17 - timestamp status - first century
seven heads - no crowns (end times completion)
ten horns - no crowns (end times completion)

Revelation 12 - timestamp status - end times, the 7 years before Jesus returns.
seven heads - crowns (seven kings completion)
ten horns - no crowns

Revelation 13 - timestamp status - end times, 42 months before Jesus returns
seven heads - no crowns. one head mortally wounded but healed - the beast king.
ten horns - crowns (to rule with the beast king).

 

[Gregory Thompson]

The seven heads are seven kings. The ten horns are ten kings.
If you zoom out on your monitor, so all three chapters are shown at the same time, the comparison table is a little more easy to follow.


Revelation 17 - timestamp status - first century
seven heads - no crowns (end times completion)
ten horns - no crowns (end times completion)

Revelation 12 - timestamp status - end times, the 7 years before Jesus returns.
seven heads - crowns (seven kings completion)
ten horns - no crowns

Revelation 13 - timestamp status - end times, 42 months before Jesus returns
seven heads - no crowns. one head mortally wounded but healed - the beast king.
ten horns - crowns (to rule with the beast king).

This is probably because a horn represents a king, so the crown is implied.

 

[Douggg]

I hope others are finding the opening post comparison chart helpful.

Don't hesitate to copy and paste it into your posts when appropriate. I will be doing the same for my posts, when appropriate.

 

[David Kent]

I hope others are finding the opening post comparison chart helpful.

Don't hesitate to copy and paste it into your posts when appropriate. I will be doing the same for my posts, when appropriate.

I see no chart.

 

[David Kent]

The seven kings were the seven types of rulers of the empire, such as kings, triumvirate, dictators , Emperors, etc. The 6th was ruling at the time, the one to come was those who wore the diadem instead of the crown. (Some say the Christian emperors, but I think that is correct as there was only one , Constantine and he remained only a short time as he then removed the empire to the east and therefore out of the scope of the prophecy which referred to Rome.) The beast at that time was and is not, but was to come. The Empire then divided into 10 Gothic states and the papacy began to get power at the same time as them. From the time of Julius Ceasar, the head of the empire was also head of the pagan religion and called Pont Max, including Constantine, but that title was vacant when Constantine moved the seat of the Empire to the east, realising that the Antichrist would come from Rome and worrying that it could be him. The beast would return when the Pope officially got the title of Supreme head of the church and overthrew 3 of the gothic states. The beast then was and us not and yet is. He will continue till the end.

 

[David Kent]

The seven heads are seven kings. The ten horns are ten kings.
If you zoom out on your monitor, so all three chapters are shown at the same time, the comparison table is a little more easy to follow.


Revelation 17 - timestamp status - first century
seven heads - no crowns (end times completion)
ten horns - no crowns (end times completion)

Revelation 12 - timestamp status - end times, the 7 years before Jesus returns.
seven heads - crowns (seven kings completion)
ten horns - no crowns

Revelation 13 - timestamp status - end times, 42 months before Jesus returns
seven heads - no crowns. one head mortally wounded but healed - the beast king.
ten horns - crowns (to rule with the beast king).

So you are saying Revelation 12 and 13 are after Revelation 17? Strange.

 

[Douggg]

So you are saying Revelation 12 and 13 are after Revelation 17? Strange.

Revelation 17 is great overview chapter. It gives clarity and explanation to things John was shown in Revelation 12 and Revelation 13.

As far as the seven heads and ten horns - those kings have their crowns (indicating fulfillment) in Revelation 12 (for the 7 heads) and in Revelation 13 (for the ten horns).

 

[Douggg]

I see no chart.

This is what I am speaking about. Perhaps I should have said "table", instead.

Revelation 17 - timestamp status - first century
seven heads - no crowns (end times completion)
ten horns - no crowns (end times completion)

Revelation 12 - timestamp status - end times, the 7 years before Jesus returns.
seven heads - crowns (seven kings completion)
ten horns - no crowns

Revelation 13 - timestamp status - end times, 42 months before Jesus returns
seven heads - no crowns. one head mortally wounded but healed - the beast king.
ten horns - crowns (to rule with the beast king).

 

[David Kent]

This is what I am speaking about. Perhaps I should have said "table", instead.

Revelation 17 - timestamp status - first century
seven heads - no crowns (end times completion)
ten horns - no crowns (end times completion)

Revelation 12 - timestamp status - end times, the 7 years before Jesus returns.
seven heads - crowns (seven kings completion)
ten horns - no crowns

Revelation 13 - timestamp status - end times, 42 months before Jesus returns
seven heads - no crowns. one head mortally wounded but healed - the beast king.
ten horns - crowns (to rule with the beast king).

OK I didn't realise that was a chart.

OK now here is my understanding. The Roman beast will last from about 45BC till the Lord returns.it has had a number of manifestations.
1, the various forms of government from 733BC till when John wrote. 5 had already fallen, the 6th was at the time John wrote, the Emperors, one was to come for a short time, Constantine "christian" emperor who only ruled for a very short time in Rome. Up to that time the crowns were on the heads, the Hindrance and Let in 2 Thessalonians 2 was removed.
2 And the beast was, is not. In the next 150 years the papacy began to gradually get more power over the churches in the empire. The believing church recognised that removal and were looking for Antichrist. Then the empire was divided between 10 Gothic tribes who were the 10 horns, the crowns were on the horns.
3 Then out of those horns came the papacy, the little horn, and the beast that was and is not now is, who conned the gullible Germanic kings into believing that Constantine had donated the Empire to the papacy. This was a forged document called the Donation of Constantine. And another forgery, The Decretals of Peter. He was the little horn who came out of the 10. The papacy overthrew three of the gothic kings and their territory was ruled by the popes and were known as the papal states, which lasted till 1870.
While I am quite sure that the EC will attempt to unite the empire under the papacy, all previous efforts over the centuries have failed, one of the most recent was the Hitler war. Scripture says the iron and clay would not mix.

 

[Douggg]

OK I didn't realise that was a chart.

I should have said "table".

1, the various forms of government from 733BC till when John wrote. 5 had already fallen, the 6th was at the time John wrote, the Emperors, one was to come for a short time, Constantine "christian" emperor who only ruled for a very short time in Rome. Up to that time the crowns were on the heads, the Hindrance and Let in 2 Thessalonians 2 was removed.

The one was to come is king 7, I think we can agree. But king 7 is not Constantine.

Because, look at the chart, the 7 heads (the 7 kings) do not have their crowns until Revelation 12, meaning completion of the 7 prophesied kings. Revelation 12 is timestamped with 7 years left before Jesus returns. So at the beginning of the 7 years, king 7 has come to power.

Again, look at the chart, in Revelation 13, timestamped with 42 months left before Jesus returns, the 7 heads no longer have crowns - meaning king7 has been killed, and is the mortally wounded head.

Upon being healed, i.e. come back alive, king 7 has become the beast - king 8.

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David, king 7 will be the time of the end little horn person. Who in the last stage of his career becomes the beast king (king 8)

 

[David Kent]

That is the trouble with your futurism you have to invent a 7 year tribulation at the end of time. You have to realise that the ten European states come centuries ago in the 5th century.

You also should realise that the great tribulation in the gospels was on Jews and Jerusalem and happened in the first century. Great tribulation in revelation was on the saints and mostly happened under Rome pagan and more intensly under Rome papal. That in Revelation is under Rome but Jesus said "In this world YOU WILL have tribulation, but have no fear, I have overcome the world." So Christian's are still suffering tribulation on many parts of the world.

 

[David Kent]

When you say you understand what future prophecy is about, you and anyone else who does so is a false prophet. Especially in the future things have already happened in history.

Scripture prophecy was rarely understood until it happened, and then it was only understood when it happened. One that I see was understood was the career of Cyrus but he was named 150 years before he was born and the time was given as 70 years from the first deportation. But then it was only understood when Cyrus surrounded Babylon. Belshazza understood it, which is why, when Cyrus was surrounding Jerusalem, he held that great party, defying Cyrus and more God, which is why he used the holy vessels. When he saw the writing on the wall, his loins were loose he became incontinent. Even that was prophesied. Isaiah 45:1.

 

[Douggg]

That is the trouble with your futurism you have to invent a 7 year tribulation at the end of time. You have to realise that the ten European states come centuries ago in the 5th century.

David, you have never seen me write 7 year tribulation. Some furturists do, who are of the pre-trib rapture view. What they really mean is pre-70th week. But to justify the title of their rapture view as pre "trib", they must claim that the entire 70th week is "tribulation".

When in fact, the first three years, thereabouts, of the 70th week, the world will be saying "peace and safety" thinking it has entered the messianic age.

 

[Douggg]

When you say you understand what future prophecy is about, you and anyone else who does so is a false prophet.

No, that is not the criteria of a false prophet. A false prophet is someone who falsely claims that he is directly speaking for the Lord. Like they might say... the Lord told me, there is going to be a tornado in London, August 24. Or they might preface their saying with "thus, saith the Lord" when in fact God did not tell them to speak on His behalf.

If you want to say that someone is misunderstanding bible prophecy, okay, but that does not make them a false prophet. If they say that they are speaking on behalf of the Lord - but are not - yeah, then they are being a false prophet.

 

[David Kent]

No, that is not the criteria of a false prophet. A false prophet is someone who falsely claims that he is directly speaking for the Lord. Like they might say... the Lord told me, there is going to be a tornado in London, August 24. Or they might preface their saying with "thus, saith the Lord" when in fact God did not tell them to speak on His behalf.

If you want to say that someone is misunderstanding bible prophecy, okay, but that does not make them a false prophet. If they say that they are speaking on behalf of the Lord - but are not - yeah, then they are being a false prophet.

There is a great difference between saying "This is what I think is what is going to happen" and saying "This is what is going to happen "

 

[David Kent]

David, you have never seen me write 7 year tribulation. Some furturists do, who are of the pre-trib rapture view. What they really mean is pre-70th week. But to justify the title of their rapture view as pre "trib", they must claim that the entire 70th week is "tribulation".

When in fact, the first three years, thereabouts, of the 70th week, the world will be saying "peace and safety" thinking it has entered the messianic age.

Again that is ignoring history. The seventy weeks were completed in the ministry of Jesus. He was crucified in the middle of a prophetic week, the seventieth, and also of the natural week.