Crossing yourself

DawnTillery · Jun 23, 2005

N/M i figured out what Crossing yourself is but anyone else want to shed light on the tresspasses thing?

Monica02 · Jun 23, 2005

lucypevensie said:
Hopefully, someone will answer my question. Could someone please tell me why people make the cross, and what does it mean/do?

CAtholic - Latin Rite

In the name of the Father (touch forehead)
and of the Son (touch stomach area)
And of the Holy Spirit (left to right chest)

One does this to invoke the Holy Trinity in prayer, much as Protestants pray "In the name of Jesus".

I think the Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholics hold their thumb to thier index and middle finger as another reminder of the Trinity and they may cross right to left. I have also seen people touch the center of their chest after crossing.

MbiaJc · Jun 23, 2005

Uncle Bud said:
We actually have a plethora of ex-Catholics that still say tresspasses instead of debts in the Lord's Prayer. I even catch myself saying it from time to time because that is how I learned it as a child.

Hey I not a Catholic, always been a Baptist, but I have also always said tresspasses. Am I weird or something?

ZiSunka · Jun 23, 2005

It means using your hand to make motions that when connected together make the sign of the cross over your heart. You touch your forehead, then your belly button, then one shoulder then the other, to make two invisible lines, one horizontal and one vertical that resemble the cross. We were told in catechism classes that people do this to let God know that they are getting ready to pray. It's also done at the end of the prayer to let God know you are finished.

ZiSunka · Jun 23, 2005

Monica02 said:
CAtholic - Latin Rite

In the name of the Father (touch forehead)
and of the Son (touch stomach area)
And of the Holy Spirit (left to right chest)

One does this to invoke the Holy Trinity in prayer, much as Protestants pray "In the name of Jesus".

I think the Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholics hold their thumb to thier index and middle finger as another reminder of the Trinity and they may cross right to left. I have also seen people touch the center of their chest after crossing.

Protestants say "in the name of Jesus" because the Bibles says that anything we ask in his name, God will give us. "In his name" means "by His authority" meaning that we are reminding ourselves that Christ gave us the authority to go directly and boldly to the Father with all our requests, just like a check gives you the authority to withdraw funds from another person's bank account.

Filia Mariae · Jun 23, 2005

lucypevensie said:
Hopefully, someone will answer my question. Could someone please tell me why people make the cross, and what does it mean/do?

Lucy,

We cross ourselves as a physical reminder of our faith in Christ's saving sacrifice on the cross and say "In the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." When entering a church, we dip our fingers in holy water and then cross ourselves, reminding ourselves of our baptism into Christ's death and resurrection.

We do NOT cross ourselves to "announce" to God that we are praying or in some superstitious belief that crossing ourselves accomplishes something. It is a way of recollecting oneself and bringing oneself into the realization of Paschal mystery which is the center of our Christian faith.

If you have more questions about this, or if I didn't answer you adequately, you're welcome to ask in OBOB.

In Him,
Carly

AJ · Jun 24, 2005

Is there anything in the Bible in support of or in opposition of crossing yourself? I grew up Episcopal, and have crossed myself many times. I don't see any problem with doing it...

Canadian75 · Jun 24, 2005

TxAdam said:
Is there anything in the Bible in support of or in opposition of crossing yourself? I grew up Episcopal, and have crossed myself many times. I don't see any problem with doing it...

There is certainly nothing unbiblical about crossing yourself. Then again it isn't from scripture either. It an old Christian tradition (it must be old since both the EO and RCC both do it) though I don't know exactly how old. I don't find it any different than folding your hands or lifting them when you pray. That's also a nonscriptural but common tradition. The only problem people might have is if they don't want to be associated in any way with the EO or RCC.

Peace.

AJ · Jun 24, 2005

Canadian75 said:
There is certainly nothing unbiblical about crossing yourself. Then again it isn't from scripture either. It an old Christian tradition (it must be old since both the EO and RCC both do it) though I don't know exactly how old. I don't find it any different than folding your hands or lifting them when you pray. That's also a nonscriptural but common tradition. The only problem people might have is if they don't want to be associated in any way with the EO or RCC.

Peace.

Excellent explination... Thank you.

lucypevensie · Jun 24, 2005

OK, thank you all for the helpful explanations. My question's anwered

ps139 · Jun 24, 2005

DawnTillery said:
N/M i figured out what Crossing yourself is but anyone else want to shed light on the tresspasses thing?

MbiaJc said:
Hey I not a Catholic, always been a Baptist, but I have also always said tresspasses. Am I weird or something?

I think the trespasses/debts/sins really just depends on how the prayer is translated into English.
Think about how many Bible translations there are - you can take 3 translations, look up the Greek word, and find it translated in 3 ways.

When I hear "trespasses" I think of one of those "NO TRESPASSING" signs you will find stapled to trees in rural areas.
And with debts, I think of my college loans

So when I say the prayer I usually say "sins," it makes the most sense to me. I think "debt" and "trespass" are more archaic forms. Just guessing though.

ZiSunka · Jun 24, 2005

Canadian75 said:
There is certainly nothing unbiblical about crossing yourself. Then again it isn't from scripture either. It an old Christian tradition (it must be old since both the EO and RCC both do it) though I don't know exactly how old. I don't find it any different than folding your hands or lifting them when you pray. That's also a nonscriptural but common tradition. The only problem people might have is if they don't want to be associated in any way with the EO or RCC.

Peace.

I think one more obvious problem is that so many catholics feel they HAVE to do it before they pray or God won't hear their prayers. When I get together with my catholic friends and relatives, they make a big deal out of crossing themselves whenever they pray, or whenever someone mentions something they hope doesn't happen, that it's almost like a supertition than a religous ritual.

For example when the doctor told my aunt she might have cancer, she crossed herself. When I asked her if she was praying, she said crossing yourself is the same as praying, so she didn't have to pray. Later, an older catholic lady I know did the same thing when she heard that one of her sons might be doing something illegal, and when I tried to get her to pray with me, she said that crossing yourself is the same as prayer and that God would take care of it. My sister and cousins often cross themselves as a "good luck" sign, sometimes while rubbing holy medals. It frightens me to think that some people think that making hand gestures is equal to prayer, or that God gives good luck to people who make these hand gesture regardless of the condition of their hearts or their faith.

Crossing yourself before prayer is a sacrimental, which are considered in catholicism to confer grace. Since I believe that all grace is the gift of God and not a reward He gives for making ritualistic hand gestures, I refuse to do it even when it would be easier to just give in and do it because everyone else is doing it. I would never want people to think that evangelical Christians believe that rituals and gestures garner grace from God.

DawnTillery · Jun 24, 2005

ps139 said:
I think the trespasses/debts/sins really just depends on how the prayer is translated into English.
Think about how many Bible translations there are - you can take 3 translations, look up the Greek word, and find it translated in 3 ways.

When I hear "trespasses" I think of one of those "NO TRESPASSING" signs you will find stapled to trees in rural areas.
And with debts, I think of my college loans

So when I say the prayer I usually say "sins," it makes the most sense to me. I think "debt" and "trespass" are more archaic forms. Just guessing though.

I liked the loan comment, mine will be coming due soon.. YIKES
Yes, sins makes more sense..
I have always said tresspasses as I was growing up, its the way it was said at funerals and such.. I feel weird when I say it any other way, like im saying it wrong, but im just not use to it..

Rising_Suns · Jun 24, 2005

lambslove said:
I think one more obvious problem is that so many catholics feel they HAVE to do it before they pray or God won't hear their prayers. When I get together with my catholic friends and relatives, they make a big deal out of crossing themselves whenever they pray, or whenever someone mentions something they hope doesn't happen, that it's almost like a supertition than a religous ritual.

I wouldn't neccessarily go that far. It's not superstition but rather keeping with a Tradition that dates as far back to the first couple centuries. Perhaps some Catholics today have the wrong idea on why they do it, but that is no reason to be afraid of doing it.

It frightens me to think that some people think that making hand gestures is equal to prayer, or that God gives good luck to people who make these hand gesture regardless of the condition of their hearts or their faith..

Yes, God looks to the heart first, but does that mean all outward signs are meaningless? Just a small passage; Ezekiel 9:4-6 speaks of the sign of the cross (Tau) to be marked on foreheads ("...but do not touch any man on whom is the mark"). It's interesting to note; God could have easily just looked into the hearts of people and spared those whom He wanted, but instead He gave a small responsibility to mankind as well.

But just to make clear, the Catholic Church teaches that God looks to the heart and state of one's soul first above all else. If you know Catholics who think they can "buy" grace by making gestures regardless of their hearts, then they have a false idea of what it means to be Catholic.

Blessings,

-Davide

ZiSunka · Jun 24, 2005

Perhaps some Catholics today have the wrong idea on why they do it, but that is no reason to be afraid of doing it.

Oh, I'm not afraid, I just see it as one more unnecessary ritual that gets in the way of me relating to God as father-and-child. I would never dream of crossing myself before talking to my human dad, in fact, he would think it was odd if I did. God is my Father even more than my dad is my father, and Jesus said we should call the Father Abba, which means "Daddy." Daddy is an intimate term that is used between a father and a child that have deep love and a healthy relationship. Since God is my Daddy, I don't need to practice any traditions or do any rituals to try to get his attention or earn his approval.

Yes, God looks to the heart first, but does that mean all outward signs are meaningless?

No, but making ritualistic hand gestures is meaningless, when all that is needed to get God's attention is to call out to him and all that is needed to gain his approval is to have faith in his son, Jesus Christ.

mesue · Jun 24, 2005

Rising_Suns said:
... Yes, God looks to the heart first, but does that mean all outward signs are meaningless? Just a small passage; Ezekiel 9:4-6 speaks of the sign of the cross (Tau) to be marked on foreheads ("...but do not touch any man on whom is the mark"). It's interesting to note; God could have easily just looked into the hearts of people and spared those whom He wanted, but instead He gave a small responsibility to mankind as well.

But just to make clear, the Catholic Church teaches that God looks to the heart and state of one's soul first above all else. If you know Catholics who think they can "buy" grace by making gestures regardless of their hearts, then they have a false idea of what it means to be Catholic.

Blessings,

-Davide

Let the Bible interpret the Bible.
My Bible says:
Ezekiel 9:4: And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
Ezekiel 9:5: And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
Ezekiel 9:6: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.

I'm not getting the "Sign of the Cross" here at all. The Cross was at Calvary, 1400 years after Ezekiel Jesus left His throne above. Ezekiel could not possibly be referring to that. The Jews see the Cross as punishment, not salvation. They denied Christ as Messiah. This kind of rationale just doesn't go.
There are other marks on the forehead mentioned in the Bible as well, are those too, references to the sign of the Cross? If you had it your way, it would.
Revelation 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
Revelation 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

ZiSunka · Jun 24, 2005

Especially since the mark in ezekial was most likely a smudge of ashes, which was (and still is) a middle eastern sign of mouring. Middle easterns will still smudge their foreheads with ashes in times of great mourning.

Rising_Suns · Jun 24, 2005

In the original Hebrew, the "mark" is the last letter of the Hebrew alphabet, i.e., the Tau, or, "T".

ZiSunka · Jun 24, 2005

Rising_Suns said:
In the original Hebrew, the "mark" is the last letter of the Hebrew alphabet, i.e., the Tau, or, "T".

Hate to tell you this, but the Hebrew alphabet doesn't have a letter shaped like a T or a cross. The Roman alphabet has a T, but the Hebrew doesn't. It has a letter that is prnounced the way we pronounce T, but that letter is not cross-shaped. The Tet is shaped like a box with a broken lid and the Taw is shaped like a horseshoe.

mesue · Jun 24, 2005

Rising_Suns said:
In the original Hebrew, the "mark" is the last letter of the Hebrew alphabet, i.e., the Tau, or, "T".

Tau is a scratch. From Strong's
H8420

תּו

tâv

tawv

From H8427; a mark; by implication a signature: - desire, mark.

H8427

תּוה

tâvâh

taw-vaw'

A primitive root; to mark out, that is, (primitive) scratch or (definitely) imprint: - scrabble, set [a mark].

Crossing yourself

Matthew 11:28

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It means 'yellow dog'

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It means 'yellow dog'

'Christ's desolate heart is in need of comfort'

It means 'yellow dog'

Love all, trust a few. Do wrong to none.

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