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Crocodile vs serpent

ChavaK

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Shemot 7:9-15

9. "When Pharaoh speaks to you, saying, 'Provide a sign for yourselves,' you shall say to Aaron, 'Take your staff, [and] cast [it] before Pharaoh; it will become a serpent.' " ט. כִּי יְדַבֵּר אֲלֵכֶם פַּרְעֹה לֵאמֹר תְּנוּ לָכֶם מוֹפֵת וְאָמַרְתָּ אֶל אַהֲרֹן קַח אֶת מַטְּךָ וְהַשְׁלֵךְ לִפְנֵי פַרְעֹה יְהִי לְתַנִּין:
10. [Thereupon,] Moses and Aaron came to Pharaoh, and they did so, as the Lord had commanded; Aaron cast his staff before Pharaoh and before his servants, and it became a serpent. י. וַיָּבֹא מֹשֶׁה וְאַהֲרֹן אֶל פַּרְעֹה וַיַּעֲשׂוּ כֵן כַּאֲשֶׁר צִוָּה יְ־הֹוָ־ה וַיַּשְׁלֵךְ אַהֲרֹן אֶת מַטֵּהוּ לִפְנֵי פַרְעֹה וְלִפְנֵי עֲבָדָיו וַיְהִי לְתַנִּין:
11. [Then,] Pharaoh too summoned the wise men and the magicians, and the necromancers of Egypt also did likewise with their magic. יא. וַיִּקְרָא גַּם פַּרְעֹה לַחֲכָמִים וְלַמְכַשְּׁפִים וַיַּעֲשׂוּ גַם הֵם חַרְטֻמֵּי מִצְרַיִם בְּלַהֲטֵיהֶם כֵּן:
12. Each one of them cast down his staff, and they became serpents; but Aaron's staff swallowed their staffs. יב. וַיַּשְׁלִיכוּ אִישׁ מַטֵּהוּ וַיִּהְיוּ לְתַנִּינִם וַיִּבְלַע מַטֵּה אַהֲרֹן אֶת מַטֹּתָם:
13. But Pharaoh's heart remained steadfast, and he did not hearken to them, as the Lord had spoken. יג. וַיֶּחֱזַק לֵב פַּרְעֹה וְלֹא שָׁמַע אֲלֵהֶם כַּאֲשֶׁר דִּבֶּר יְ־הֹוָ־ה:
14. The Lord said to Moses, "Pharaoh's heart is heavy; he has refused to let the people out. יד. וַיֹּאמֶר יְ־הֹוָ־ה אֶל מֹשֶׁה כָּבֵד לֵב פַּרְעֹה מֵאֵן לְשַׁלַּח הָעָם:
15. Go to Pharaoh in the morning; behold, he is going forth to the water, and you shall stand opposite him on the bank of the Nile, and the staff that was turned into a serpent you shall take in your hand. טו. לֵךְ אֶל פַּרְעֹה בַּבֹּקֶר הִנֵּה יֹצֵא הַמַּיְמָה וְנִצַּבְתָּ לִקְרָאתוֹ עַל שְׂפַת הַיְאֹר וְהַמַּטֶּה אֲשֶׁר נֶהְפַּךְ לְנָחָשׁ תִּקַּח בְּיָדֶךָ:
In the text, verses 9-12 the Hebrew word is not "serpent"נָחָשׁ but "crocodile" תַנִּין. In verse 15 it reverts back to "serpent" נָחָשׁ.
Why do you suppose the Hebrew word crocodile used, why is it translated into English as serpent, and why does the Hebrew change back to serpent in vs 15?
 
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aniello

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Shemot 7:9-15

In the text, verses 9-12 the Hebrew word is not "serpent"נָחָשׁ but "crocodile" תַנִּין. In verse 15 it reverts back to "serpent" נָחָשׁ.
Why do you suppose the Hebrew word crocodile used, why is it translated into English as serpent, and why does the Hebrew change back to serpent in vs 15?

Interesting. I don't know. What do our revered sages say, please.
 
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Desert Rose

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while revered sages are on coffee break, i will chip in.
the word tannin its the name of some kind of sea creature, like in Bereisht 1 21 :
ויברא אלהים את התנינים הגדולים
"God created big fishes"

Sometimes we see that tannin has somewhat snaketype features like in Shmot 7 9
however thats not the snake that seduced Eve and her nogoodnick husband, thats nahash נחש

Common features of biblical word "tannin" is 1) big 2) lives in the waters 3) snakelike body. Sort of like Loch Ness Monster ;)

Its the word that is also known in other semitic languages, syrian, arabic, etc. also translated as dragon, or big snake

In one place in Jezekeel 29 3 its used as
התנים הגדול הרובץ בתוך יאוריו
as "crocodile" .. that lies in his waters( Nile)
 
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ChavaK

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Its the word that is also known in other semitic languages, syrian, arabic, etc. also translated as dragon, or big snake
I've also heard it translated as dragon.
Still, why tanin in a couple of verses and nachash in the other?
 
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Desert Rose

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To add - yes, in modern hebrew its crocodile but looks like its was not only that( or not quite that) back in biblical times.

Interesting contemplation/study would be to compare it with "leviathan" and to seek if the roots of the words are somewhat related linguistically....

Ancient hebrew word for jackal, or wild prarie dog/wolf type of creature is תן tan(plural תנים tannim) Supposedly unrelated, but maybe Yonah knows more....
 
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Lulav

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Shemot 7:9-15

In the text, verses 9-12 the Hebrew word is not "serpent"נָחָשׁ but "crocodile" תַנִּין. In verse 15 it reverts back to "serpent" נָחָשׁ.
Why do you suppose the Hebrew word crocodile used, why is it translated into English as serpent, and why does the Hebrew change back to serpent in vs 15?

I don't think it changes back. Since serpents weren't mentioned before this, I take what he said in 15 to mean this, from chapter 4

ב וַיֹּאמֶר אֵלָיו יְהוָה, מזה (מַה-זֶּה) בְיָדֶךָ; וַיֹּאמֶר, מַטֶּה. 2
And the LORD said unto him: 'What is that in thy hand?' And he said: 'A rod.'
ג וַיֹּאמֶר הַשְׁלִיכֵהוּ אַרְצָה, וַיַּשְׁלִכֵהוּ אַרְצָה וַיְהִי לְנָחָשׁ; וַיָּנָס מֹשֶׁה, מִפָּנָיו. 3
And He said: 'Cast it on the ground.' And he cast it on the ground, and it became a serpent; and Moses fled from before it.

The rod that G-d said to cast down in chapter 7, was Aarons rod. The rod that G-ds tells Moses to strike the Nile with is Moses rod, the one he used in Chapter 4. :)

7:14 And the LORD said unto Moses: 'Pharaoh's heart is stubborn, he refuseth to let the people go. . 15 Get thee unto Pharaoh in the morning; lo, he goeth out unto the water; and thou shalt stand by the river's brink to meet him; and the rod which was turned to a serpent shalt thou take in thy hand.

טו לֵךְ אֶל-פַּרְעֹה בַּבֹּקֶר, הִנֵּה יֹצֵא הַמַּיְמָה, וְנִצַּבְתָּ לִקְרָאתוֹ, עַל-שְׂפַת הַיְאֹר; וְהַמַּטֶּה אֲשֶׁר-נֶהְפַּךְ לְנָחָשׁ, תִּקַּח בְּיָדֶךָ
 
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Desert Rose

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I've also heard it translated as dragon.
Still, why tanin in a couple of verses and nachash in the other?

have no idea, Chava, maybe its just like snake/serpent difference?

always thought that nachash , from lenachesh- to "guess" ) meant a smarter, trickier snake that's promoted to fancier "serpent"? But why they change it could be nothing special, maybe even sloppiness of the writers?
Ancient language is a ball of mystery....
 
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ChavaK

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From a Jewish site I found:
R'vi'i-fourth Aliyah-28 p'sukim (7:8-8:6)

G-d tells MOshe and Aharon, that when Paro asks for a sign, Moshe shall instruct Aharon to thrown down the staff before Paro and it will turn into a serpent. Mosher and Aharon appear before Paro and do as Gpd has instructed them. The Baal HaTurim points out that the pasuk says: Gpd says to Moshe that when Paro will ask for a sign, you (Moshe) shall tell to Aharon to take your staff and throw in on the ground in front ofParo, it shall become a TANIN. It didn't say: and it will become a Tanin. He explains that the staff was thrown down and then he was to command it to become a Tanin. And that's what happened, to thos Paro the power of speech that Gpd has given to Moshe. In other words, the staff did no change upon being thrown down. It changed by spoken word.
On another note...when G-d first had MOshe throw his staff down, it changed into a NACHASH, a snake. Here with Paro, it changed into a TANIN. Strong possibility is that we are talking about a crocodile, venerated and even worshipoped by Egyptians. Many Pharoahs identified with the crocodile as the ruling animal of the Nile. Adds the Baal HaTurim, that the Tanin reverting to wood was a message to Paro that just as the mighty crocodile turns to drywood, so too will the might Paro turn to dust and food for worms.

And a Christian site:

Dr. Claude Mariottini - Professor of Old Testament: Moses and His Crocodile Christian perspective
Moses and His Crocodile
After God called Moses on Mount Sinai and sent him back to Egypt to bring the people out of their oppression, Moses presented himself before Pharaoh as God’s messenger, one appointed by God himself to speak to Pharaoh on his behalf.

But God warned Moses that Pharaoh would not listen to his voice, that he would harden his heart and would not allow the people to leave Egypt. God also warned Moses that Pharaoh would request a sign that Moses had the authority to speak of the behalf of the God of Israel. When that happened, God told Moses to perform a sign as a means of showing to Pharaoh that he spoke with authority. Gold told Moses:

“When Pharaoh says to you, Prove yourselves by working a miracle, then you shall say to Aaron, ‘Take your rod and cast it down before Pharaoh, that it may become a serpent.’ So Moses and Aaron went to Pharaoh and did as the LORD commanded; Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh and his servants, and it became a serpent. Then Pharaoh summoned the wise men and the sorcerers; and they also, the magicians of Egypt, did the same by their secret arts. For every man cast down his rod, and they became serpents. But Aaron’s rod swallowed up their rods” (Exodus 7:9-12).

On his new program, “Beasts of the Bible,” to be presented in the USA on Animal Planet, on Thursday, April 1st at 8:00 p.m. ET, Simcha Jacobovici, the Naked Archaeologist, said about Moses’ rod that became a snake:

“Did you know that, when facing Pharaoh, it is not Moses that throws down his staff; it is his brother Aaron and, according to the original Hebrew, it did not turn into a snake but a crocodile? Since the Egyptians worshipped the crocodile god - Sobek, when Aaron's crocodile swallowed up the Egyptian crocodiles, Pharaoh understood that the God of Israel was more powerful than his entire pantheon. All this is lost if the Hebrew word ‘tanin’ is mistranslated as ‘snake’ instead of ‘crocodile.’”

Many readers of the Bible do not realize that two different words are used in the book of Exodus to describe what happened to Moses’ rod. The first word appears in Exodus 4:2-3. God told Moses:

“What is that in your hand?” He said, “A rod.” Then God said, “Cast it on the ground.” So Moses cast it on the ground, and it became a serpent; and Moses fled from it.”

The word used for serpent in verse 3 is nāhāsh, a word that appears 41 times in the Hebrew Bible and is translated “serpent,” “snake,” or “viper.”

The second word is tannin and it is used three times in Exodus 7:9-12, in the passage quoted above. The word tannin has a variety of meanings in the Hebrew Bible. According to H. Niehr, in an article in The Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament, the word tannin can be translated as “dragon,” “serpent,” “crocodile,” or “sea monster.” In addition, Niehr said that the tannin lives in the sea, lakes and rivers, and the netherworld.

In the creation context, the word tannin is associated with the battle between Yahweh and the forces of chaos: “You divided the sea by your might; you broke the heads of the sea monsters on the waters” (Psalm 74:13 ESV). The ESV translates the word tannin as “sea monsters” and the KJV translates the same word as “dragons.”

The word tannin is also used metaphorically to describe political powers, primarily leaders of nations who oppressed the Israelites.

In Ezekiel 29:3, the word tannin is used as a metaphor for Pharaoh who was sprawling in the middle of the Nile like a great sea monster, claiming that he made the Nile for himself:

Thus says the Lord GOD: “Behold, I am against you, Pharaoh king of Egypt, the great dragon [tannin] that lies in the midst of his streams, that says, ‘My Nile is my own; I made it for myself.’”

This metaphor is used again for Pharaoh in Ezekiel 32:2. God told Ezekiel:

Son of man, raise a lamentation over Pharaoh king of Egypt and say to him: “You consider yourself a lion of the nations, but you are like a dragon [tannin] in the seas; you burst forth in your rivers, trouble the waters with your feet, and foul their rivers.”

The same metaphor is also applied to Nebuchadnezzar, who like a monster [tannin], has swallowed Israel: “Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon has devoured me; he has crushed me; he has made me an empty vessel; he has swallowed me like a monster [tannin]” (Jeremiah 51:34).

In light of these and several other examples in the Hebrew Bible, the word tannin in Exodus 7:9-12 should be translated by something more monstrous than a “serpent.” John Durham, in his commentary on Exodus, translated the word tannin as “a monstrous snake” (p. 89). A. Cassuto, in his commentary on Exodus translated the word as “a crocodile” (p. 94-95).

A. Fuller, in his commentary on Exodus wrote:

A serpent. A word different from that in Exodus 4:3. Here a more general term, Tanniyn, is employed, which in other passages includes all sea or river monsters, and is more specially applied to the crocodile as a symbol of Egypt. It occurs in the Egyptian ritual, nearly in the same form, Tanem, as a synonym of the monster serpent which represents the principle of antagonism to light and life.

Douglas K. Steward, in his commentary on Exodus (Nashville: Broadman & Holman Publishers, 2006), p. 195, quotes P. Galpaz-Feller who “suggests that the term [tannin] refers rather to the crocodile, an animal that in ancient Egyptian religion was understood as a voracious devourer and one who could devour magical spells. By this reasoning Aaron’s staff’s devouring of the other staffs was no accident but a symbol of the impending demise of Egyptian power in the face of Yahweh’s.”

Terence Fretheim, in his commentary on Exodus suggests that Pharaoh, who represents Egypt, “is an embodiment of the forces of chaos” (p. 106). Writing about the tannin of Moses swallowing the tanninim (the plural of tannin) of the magicians of Egypt, Fretheim wrote:

“This act functions as a sign of things to come in a very specific way: the fate of the Egyptians at the Red Sea. The only other use of the verb ‘swallow’ (bala‘) in Exodus occurs in 15:12, where it refers to the swallowing of the Egyptians in the depths of the earth beneath the sea . . . The seemingly innocuous reference to snake swallowing is thus an ominous sign for Pharaoh: it is a sign of his fate.”


Pharaoh’s obstinacy required a demonstration of divine power. The transformation of Moses’ rod into a tannin is what is generally called a miracle. Moses went before Pharaoh on a divine mission and for him to accomplish his mission, God gave him the power to make extraordinary signs for the purpose of demonstrating his authority and commission. Moses’ rod became a tannin for that purpose. Now, whether the rod became a serpent, a crocodile, or any other animal is difficult to know. However, the important truth of the sign Moses performed before Pharaoh was that because of the work of Moses and the outstretched arm of God, Israel came out of Egypt to become God’s people with a mission to the nations.
 
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Desert Rose

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My explanation was a lot shorter and I didn't get it anywhere online. :)
Thats why you wouldnt make a good politician or member of clergy, or get a tenure in academia , Lulav. You need to learn to make longer speeches!

on friday night
I just saw that its only thursday. :doh: You couldnt break it to me gently, you damn calendar
 
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Lulav

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Thats why you wouldnt make a good politician or member of clergy, or get a tenure in academia , Lulav. You need to learn to make longer speeches!

Oh, I usually can, right now I am under the weather, and even typing hurts.
 
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Henaynei

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Could be as simple as... "crocodile" was the specific and "snake" also be translated as the general "reptile" ?
Like saying "Go get the cows (specific), get those mammals (general) in the barn."
 
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yonah_mishael

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Could be as simple as... "crocodile" was the specific and "snake" also be translated as the general "reptile" ?
Like saying "Go get the cows (specific), get those mammals (general) in the barn."

I think that it's the opposite – that tannin is used more generically in the Bible. In some contexts, it's a giant sea creature. In others, it's a dragon. In yet others it's some kind of snake, specifically a venomous snake.
 
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Yahudim

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I think that it's the opposite – that tannin is used more generically in the Bible. In some contexts, it's a giant sea creature. In others, it's a dragon. In yet others it's some kind of snake, specifically a venomous snake.
I see it the same way. Leviathan is interesting if interpreted as 'joined to the serpent'. So I wonder if there isn't a reference to spiritual beings going on here? Ezekiel seemed to think so...

Trying to get a handle on nahash in this context.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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I think that it's the opposite – that tannin is used more generically in the Bible. In some contexts, it's a giant sea creature. In others, it's a dragon. In yet others it's some kind of snake, specifically a venomous snake.
To me the head of a dragon is similar to a hear of a serpent.
The NT book of Revelation mentions a rather nasty dragon in it [click on my camera icon ehehe] :wave:

Ezekiel 29:3 "Speak thou! and say 'thus He says my Lord YAHWEY. Behold Me! on thee Par`oh king of Egypt, the great Dragon the one reclining in midst of his rivers which he says to Me ' my River and I, I made me'.

Revelation 12:3 And was seen another Sign in the heaven, and behold! A great fiery red Dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems upon his head

http://www.christianforums.com/t7557261-4/#post57419879
There Be Dragons !

Dragonslayer trailer - YouTube
 
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