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criminalising..a beggar ?

rose2u

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COURT RULING MAY LEAD TO NATIONAL BAN ON BEGGARS

http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/legal/story.jsp?story=435983
By Danielle Demetriou

22 August 2003

A judge has banned a drug addict from begging in a move that may result in councils being empowered to banish beggars from the streets.

The judgment yesterday, made at Manchester County Court, stated that Leonard Hockey, 51, would face jail if he was caught begging on the city's streets.

Within hours of the judgment, at least one other council had said that it was considering using injunctions to eliminate begging.......>>>(go to above site for further reading of this article)


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CRIME WILL RISE IF WE ARE BANNED, SAY CITY BEGGARS
http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk

CLAIRE ELLIOT
09:00 - 22 August 2003

Street crime in Aberdeen would rise if beggars were forced out of the city centre, it was claimed yesterday.

Beggars in the Granite City say the only other way for them to get money for food is by stealing.

Many of the beggars - some of whom have been forced on to the streets for reasons including physical or sexual abuse, relationship difficulties or family problems - fear they will end up in jail if such a ban is implemented.

One of them, David Grant, 22, told yesterday how he had been on and off the streets since he was 16. He spent much of his youth in prison for breaking into homes and cars.

Since he resorted to begging, he had kept out of trouble, he said. "Just now I don't have to steal to get fed, but we need to feed ourselves and, if we can't beg, we will have to steal to get money," Mr Grant said.

The beggars' concerns come on the back of a report suggesting that 70 of homeless beggars in the city are bogus and that the average beggar in Aberdeen can earn up to £18,000 a year on the streets.

But the beggars say £6,000 is a more realistic figure...(go to above site to read more)


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DRUG ADDICT BANNED.. from begging

http://www.itv.com/news/1751519.html
21 Aug 2003

A drug addict who has been arrested 97 times for begging ha been banned by a judge from begging anywhere in Manchester city centre.

Fifty-one-year-old Leonard Hockey, of Salford, faces up to two years in jail for contempt of court if he is found begging in Manchester city centre again.

The civil action was brought by Manchester City Council and Greater Manchester Police.

Although begging is illegal it does not carry a jail sentence under the Vagrancy Act 1824.

Judge Richard Holman said he found Hockey's activities "constitute a public nuisance" and added: "It is plain on his own evidence that the defendant intends to continue begging.

"There is therefore a strong evidential basis for concluding nothing short of an injunction will be effective to restrain the defendant from continuing his begging."

The injunction will run for two years.

Judge Holman said: "It is undeniably the case that begging is not regarded as a socially acceptable.

"The fact is that it exists, it is intrusive and it conflicts with an entirely legitimate aim of providing a pleasant and welcoming environment in the city centre for the general population."

Hockey's solicitor, Ben Taylor, said the ruling would open up further action against beggars.

Mr Taylor said: "This is not a blanket judgment but this will open the flood gates to other local authorities bringing injunctive proceedings against beggars. They would have to bring separate injunctions on an individual basis."

He continued: "My client is now prevented from begging in the Manchester city area but there is nothing from stopping him begging elsewhere, though I would not advise this as it is a criminal activity.

"We have always said that my client is not a public nuisance, he simply asks people for change."

Homeless charity Shelter said it was "very concerned" by the ruling.

Ben Jackson, Shelter's director of external affairs, said: "We are very concerned that the action by Manchester City Council could signal a shift towards criminalising those who live on the street."
 

Inspired

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I think beggars have become victim to the sterotype of those who are the alocholics and drug addicts who no longer care about their lives. Not all beggars created their situation,and even those who did shouldn't be thrown aside. I think it is unfortunate that the government can't find a way to help those who do wish to help themselves out of that life. I can't remember that last time I even heard of them trying to come up with a positive nationwide solution to the problem. This world desperately needs more understanding and compassion towards our fellow man.
 
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kdet

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Inspired said:
I think beggars have become victim to the sterotype of those who are the alocholics and drug addicts who no longer care about their lives. Not all beggars created their situation,and even those who did shouldn't be thrown aside. I think it is unfortunate that the government can't find a way to help those who do wish to help themselves out of that life. I can't remember that last time I even heard of them trying to come up with a positive nationwide solution to the problem. This world desperately needs more understanding and compassion towards our fellow man.

Most of the "beggers" we have up here are professionals..with their corners staked out for the day. It is hard to feel compassion who you know is begging as a means earning his living instead of getting a job.
If you really want to help people volunteer at a soup kitchen.
 
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Lotar

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Beggers don't even spend the money you give them on food. I see it every day, they take the money, then take their lunch out of the trash and go take their money down to the nearest liquor store or bar.
 
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Yitzchak

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The irony of this story is if the begger is arrested, then the taxpayers will pay far more a year to feed, clothe and house the same begger than it would have cost to simply help the begger in the first place.
The last figure I heard for housing a prisoner was 39,000 a year. Maybe someone can help me with the statistics here.
 
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BarbB

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In DC in the 1980's, the Post put the income of a street begger at over $40K. So they made the beggers buy a license. What a howl the beggers made. (beggers as opposed to the homeless!)

Beggers will refuse housing (or have their own), soup kitchens, help from social services. They make more money on their own. And often more money than if they took a job!

And before someone flames me for being non-Christian, Christians are to take care of the worthy poor, not just beggers.

The last 10 years have not been kind to beggers as cities try to clean up the streets to attract business and tourists. They're called quality of life crimes and can make a renaissance for a city just by making sure people are not accosted by beggers. Sure would make me more comfortable.
 
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SqueezetheShaman

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These urban legends, of the beggars who make 40k, are quite amusing to me. I would love to see proof of this. Sounds to me like one guy getting caught being good at it, now everyone thinks all these homeless all have a nice warm bed to go home to.

When I was younger, living in Atlanta, my friends and I would be out most nights, at the clubs downtown. Anyone living in a big city knows how crowded they are with homeless. We would make a point many nights, before or after a few hours of clubbing, to hang out with the locals near a few of the clubs. We would take em to an after hours diner and eat with them, and chat with them. They all had horrible stories... many of em that ways because they were addicts, true....but most of them only drank and drugged because it was the only source of enjoyment. And they tried to have a life, but getting back on track after losing everything is amazingly hard, and when you don't have a clean place to shower, change clothes....most people don't like to stand near a homeless person...you don't thing the job offers are rolling in do you? Anyway, don't let these silly rumors of the secretly wealthy beggars stop you from having a little compassion.
 
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BarbB

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In DC, for the most part the homeless were not beggers. In fact, I would save half of my sandwich from lunch for one particular man near my Metro station. I am speaking of the beggers who accosted pedestrians!!!! and the accosting was NOT pleasant. I am VERY charitable and compassionate. I am not a sucker, though!

How can you speak of something written in the Washington Post as an urban legend. They are considered quite reliable by the liberal/atheistic crowd. :scratch:
 
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kdet

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newlamb said:
In DC, for the most part the homeless were not beggers. In fact, I would save half of my sandwich from lunch for one particular man near my Metro station. I am speaking of the beggers who accosted pedestrians!!!! and the accosting was NOT pleasant. I am VERY charitable and compassionate. I am not a sucker, though!

How can you speak of something written in the Washington Post as an urban legend. They are considered quite reliable by the liberal/atheistic crowd. :scratch:

Exactly..here in WA state these people are very aggressive.
Now the homeless are in a few of the parks..those people could certainly use help. But as I said the best way to really help these people
is to support the agencies that provide them food and clothing,either with your time or money or both.
 
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SqueezetheShaman

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newlamb said:
In DC, for the most part the homeless were not beggers. In fact, I would save half of my sandwich from lunch for one particular man near my Metro station. I am speaking of the beggers who accosted pedestrians!!!! and the accosting was NOT pleasant. I am VERY charitable and compassionate. I am not a sucker, though!

How can you speak of something written in the Washington Post as an urban legend. They are considered quite reliable by the liberal/atheistic crowd. :scratch:

an urban legend is a rumor that goes around long enough until it is believed true. I have heard that same thing about the beggars in atlanta and orlando but never saw anything credible....hence, urban legend. I am not doubting you saw it in the paper. credible papers don't always have the true information either...It is written by fallible men :)

also, like i metnioned in the previous post of mine...it may have been true for a few of them, but do not let it interfere with your compassion for the rest...and that wasn't said directly to you..I was just talking to people in general :)
 
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WayneH

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SqueezetheShaman said:
an urban legend is a rumor that goes around long enough until it is believed true. I have heard that same thing about the beggars in atlanta and orlando but never saw anything credible....hence, urban legend. I am not doubting you saw it in the paper. credible papers don't always have the true information either...It is written by fallible men :)

also, like i metnioned in the previous post of mine...it may have been true for a few of them, but do not let it interfere with your compassion for the rest...and that wasn't said directly to you..I was just talking to people in general :)

well - in Baltimore Md.. there are several beggars that climb into their nice cadillacs or Buicks at the end of a nice successful day of begging.... and that is not a legend - its a fact - seen by Me and many others..... When I go for a visit to the city - I have bought dinner for homeless people - and their eyes light up when you put a bag of food in front of them and walk away with a smile.... I also volunteer at a church in the city that feeds the homeless a wonderful meal.... actually - anyone can walk off the street and eat.. I've seen several welled dressed people come in and partake.. I have no problem buying a person a meal - I draw the line when I see a person drunk and begging for money - I would be happy to go buy a meal and give them but not allow them to take money and go get drunk more.......
 
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BarbB

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SqueezetheShaman said:
also, like i metnioned in the previous post of mine...it may have been true for a few of them, but do not let it interfere with your compassion for the rest...and that wasn't said directly to you..I was just talking to people in general :)

I didn't take it personally - I actually wanted a head-scratching smile but no can do. :D

I also work in my church's soup kitchen in Fla. and our crowd is the barely "homed" - older folks who live hand to mouth because of limited income and high taxes, etc. So I've got a ton of compassion :) - which is why I would take my sandwich to the guy in DC. The homeless there were truly pitiful - mostly due to mental illness. BUT...

They were not beggars being in-my-face demanding money either!!! Begging on the streets is a quality of life issue. When that gets cleaned up, the city is better able to see who needs housing help, clean up street corners of drug trafficing, prostitution, etc. Clean up the easy stuff first and the harder (and worse) stuff is exposed to the light. Then that can get worked on. Guiliani used this to clean up NYC. It's worth a try to save the cities!
 
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