• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Creationists False on Key Point

ScottA

Author: Walking Like Einstein
Site Supporter
Feb 24, 2011
4,309
657
✟56,347.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
  1. There are two forces in the world, two lineages: Darkness and Light, the natural and the spiritual, good and evil. The word of God is of the one and is spirit, and all that you have documented in your four posts is of the natural world, of the darkness.
  2. All things are in the hands of God, not men. History is His story, and providence over all things, is His. He is the Beginning and the End. The natural world is passing away.
  3. Within the Bible there are two sets of books: One natural and one spiritual. All things come in parables (Mark 4:11). If we have been reading the Bible through natural eyes then we will be blind to the greater spiritual truth, which will lead us to believe and follow after familiar (Leviticus 19:31) natural spirits.
The end has been foretold.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Hieronymus

Well-Known Member
Jan 12, 2016
8,428
3,005
53
the Hague NL
✟77,432.00
Country
Netherlands
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
@Dale
Have to say this though:
The flat earth model which is consistent throughout the Bible seems to be impossible.
So who am i to say that Genesis 1 is to be taken 100% literally?
However, creationism / I.D. still provides the answers that naturalistic thinking can not.
The evidence for special evolution is also weak and often disingenuous.
 
Reactions: Dale
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,626
82
St Charles, IL
✟347,280.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Nowhere in the Bible is Genesis 1, 2 and 3 (and any of the Bible for that matter) referred to as symbolic or allegorical.
It is all referred to as literal / factual history.
The beauty of it is hat Biblical history does have symbolic meaning.
you have created a false dichotomy. Literal/factual history is not the only alternative to symbolic/allegorical. There are many legitimate forms of historical narrative which are not necessarily literal/factual history.
 
Upvote 0

Ronald

Exhortations
Site Supporter
Jul 30, 2004
4,620
981
southern
✟111,578.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican
You are a "theistic evolutionist", who is struggling with many Biblical concepts that you must distort and misinterpret in order to conform to your false belief. Almost half of Christians accept evolution this way because they either don't understand it, nor do they understand scripture.


It is not the foundation of our religion, but the origins of man are a foundation of who we are and where we came from. If you distort the origins, then who we are and where we came from is up for speculation. Hence Darwin speculated and was wrong. He speculated that we evolved from a primordial goo. Genesis says God created man, plants and animals complete with no evolutionary process -- a finished product. A peacock was always a peacock, a rose, a rose and man always man.


In this passage God creates mankind “in his own image,” and commands people to “fill” and “subdue” the earth, and to rule over it. Yet Adam and Eve are not mentioned here and have not been introduced yet.

You misunderstand the Jewish style of writing; what appears to be chronological to you, is in fact a typical writing style used where the first chapter is an outline summation and then the second chapter goes back and fills in details. Let us make man in our image ... so God created man (which was Adam at that moment and shortly after Eve).
See you later guess it when you suggest this: "Either Genesis backtracks and inserts more material into the account of the sixth day, or Adam and Eve aren't part of the six day creation."


You are assuming there was a wall. It doesn't say anywhere about a wall. God kicked them out of the Garden and placed Cherubim to guard the garden. "Probably square ..." Another assumption.

“After he [God] drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.”

--Genesis 3:24 NIV
Do you read anything about a wall here?

You are right, the Bible doesn't say anything about destroying the Garden or removing it. We don't add to the Bible in this regard, we just discern that the Garden slowly lost it's perfection due to sin. When sin was introduced, it began to change and distort the genetic code, and things began to die - not instantly, but in a cellular, biological way. Diseases, viruses, bacteria all began on that day sin was introduced, thereby distorting what was perfect. So the paradise just got corrupted and eventually turned into what we see today.
You see, the Garden was really the whole planet. It was all beautiful and we still see beauty today, it's just when we look close, we see the defects and of course where there were lush gardens, we see deserts that have expanded. That area, which contained four rivers (two exist today, the Tigris and Euphrates), is in Iraq and now desert.
This is the key point you overlook: What God was guarding was not so much the lush region of lush green land filled with fruits and vegetables that we still have abundantly today, it was the Tree of Life. They ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, so if they had then eaten of the Tree of Life, they would have remained in that sinful state forever - this is what God saved them from -- so He guarded it until whenever.
He would later send a Savior to rectify the problem. So we can assume that eventually that the of Tree of Life withered and died. However in Revelation, we do see a Tree of Life in Rev. 22, so He could have removed it or created a new one.??
 
Upvote 0

miamited

Ted
Site Supporter
Oct 4, 2010
13,243
6,313
Seneca SC
✟705,807.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Hi Speedwell

You wrote:
There are many legitimate forms of historical narrative which are not necessarily literal/factual history.

Could you provide me with an example of 'historical narrative which are not necessarily literal/factual history'.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
Upvote 0

Dale

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Apr 14, 2003
7,489
1,319
72
Sebring, FL
✟825,409.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat

Thanks for your interest, but I have a few problems here. You say that “nonsense,” apparently evolution wasn't discussed until the last 200 years. Yet in the last fifty years Creationists have invented all manner of nonsense no one ever heard of before, and most of it is more recent than Darwin's concept of evolution.




For instance, I have heard one Creationist speak who claimed that the waters of the Flood were kept in orbit around the earth until God willed them to come crashing down. All of this water was held in place by an invisible force field. Don't tell me this is in the Bible.




If you believe that “all natural laws” “operate unchanged since creation,” then not all Creationists agree. Some Creationists have told me that there was no entropy before the Fall. If so, the laws of physics changed beyond recognition. All this leaves us with some basic questions which few Christians have even tried to answer. Genesis says that God created the world and said, “It is good.” Is the world still good after the Fall? Hmm.




In the same vein, some say that there were no predators before the Fall. No lions, tigers, wolves, alligators or sharks. Yet virtually all the animals we know seem to have evolved as part of a predator-prey relationship. Wolves evolved chasing deer and deer evolved running from wolves. If there were no predators before the Fall, then the animals Adam named in Eden have little resemblance to the ones we have around today.
 
Upvote 0

Dale

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Apr 14, 2003
7,489
1,319
72
Sebring, FL
✟825,409.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
Hi Speedwell

You wrote:


Could you provide me with an example of 'historical narrative which are not necessarily literal/factual history'.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

For instance, famous paintings show Napoleon crossing a river on a horse, on the way to a great victory. He actually crossed on a mule.

There are also paintings of famous people on their deathbeds that show people present who weren't really there.
 
Upvote 0

ScottA

Author: Walking Like Einstein
Site Supporter
Feb 24, 2011
4,309
657
✟56,347.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Sounds like you have been listening to some real kooks...but God is not one of them, nor are the majority of those who believe him and take him at his word. And by his word, I mean that only God can determine what transcends the ability of men to hand down his word from generation to generation. Providence is God's.

The simple question then...is, do you believe God?

And before you answer...and answer, you will - what logic or intellect or science, are you saying is greater than God?

Now...answer the question: At the forfeiture of everything you could ever possibly know - do you believe God?
 
Upvote 0

Speedwell

Well-Known Member
May 11, 2016
23,928
17,626
82
St Charles, IL
✟347,280.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Other Religion
Marital Status
Married
Hi Speedwell

You wrote:


Could you provide me with an example of 'historical narrative which are not necessarily literal/factual history'.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
The Iliad, by Homer; Le More d'Arthur, by Sir Thomas Malory; John Brown's Body, by Stephen Vincent Benet. These three are particularly interesting because they were all originally written in poetic form rather than prose.
 
Upvote 0

miamited

Ted
Site Supporter
Oct 4, 2010
13,243
6,313
Seneca SC
✟705,807.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The Iliad, by Homer; Le More d'Arthur, by Sir Thomas Malory; John Brown's Body, by Stephen Vincent Benet. These three are particularly interesting because they were all originally written in poetic form rather than prose.

Hi speedwell,

There is an ongoing debate as to whether or not the Iliad is an historical account or not or whether, like Gone With the Wind, it's just a fictional story of the days of the helenic wars.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_the_Iliad

The other two writings I'm not familiar with but... The tale of King Arthur has never been verified as an actual historical person or any of the events attributed to him is writings about him.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Arthur

Regarding the John Brown story, I really couldn't find any information on the story. Most everything that came up was regarding the prose you mentioned and how it had been changed by others many times over the decades to follow.

However, I don't think that any of these are really considered by those who measure literary works as necessarily being historical in their accounting of what they are about.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted
 
Upvote 0

ScottA

Author: Walking Like Einstein
Site Supporter
Feb 24, 2011
4,309
657
✟56,347.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No, the question you are really asking is "Do you believe what I think God said?"
Certainly, this is true for many, but not for all. For those who have heard directly from God, do not "ask" whether He is "believable", but know assuredly that He is. I know this, because I am one who has heard directly.

But what "believer" is a "believer", if he does not actually believe, but is in doubt? No - by definition, one who has doubt...is not even a believer.
 
Upvote 0

ChetSinger

Well-Known Member
Apr 18, 2006
3,518
651
✟132,468.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Married
Hello! I found this thread because it was featured.

We do hear more about Eden in the OT, such as in Ezekiel. In chapter 28 Eden is described as the garden of God, and also as a mountain, which fits in with other ANE thinking as a well-watered mountain being the earthly abode of the gods.

In literalist thinking (which is usually my thinking) the garden would have been buried in the Flood, which is said to have covered even the mountains. So the trees of Eden would be buried, too, obviating the need for any cherubim to remain there. This burying is alluded to in Ezekiel 31, including:
The tree of life itself isn't mentioned. Perhaps it was translated to heaven because it can be seen in New Jerusalem in Revelation 22. Or, perhaps it was buried and God will have created a new one for New Jerusalem (he does say "Behold, I am making all things new" in Revelation 21:5).

So, I think that a literalist view of Eden can be maintained consistently throughout the OT.

I'm a little curious about your beliefs: if you believe the original tree of life was a myth, do you believe the future one will be real, or not?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,030
7,265
62
Indianapolis, IN
✟594,630.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat
I'm going to make some observations about Creationism before explaining the thread title. The point falsified by Creationists will be explained in my fourth post.

Can't hardly wait.

Creationists have clearly picked a fight with the wrong enemy. Why is science is the enemy.

That's where you are wrong, Creationists are opposed to Darwinism. Creationism is an attempt to actually meet Darwinians on a common ground of real world science.

At a time when Christianity seems to be under attack from every direction, Creationists have picked a fight that Christians don't need.

Christianity has always been under attack, does the crucifixion indicate anything else?

After discussing Creationism for years, I've come to certain conclusions. Creationists assume that at some time in the not so distant past, Christianity was all-powerful in society. Then Charles Darwin dethroned it.

Nonsense, Charles Darwin simply added a naturalistic assumption:

Lamarck was the first man whose conclusions on the subject excited much attention. This justly-celebrated naturalist first published his views in 1801; he much enlarged them in 1809 in his "Philosophie Zoologique,' and subsequently, in 1815, in the Introduction to his "Hist. Nat. des Animaux sans Vertébres.' In these works he upholds the doctrine that species, including man, are descended from other species. He first did the eminent service of arousing attention to the probability of all change in the organic, as well as in the inorganic world, being the result of law, and not of miraculous interposition. (On the Origin of Species, Charles Darwin)
If you want to credit anyone it should be Lamarck.


Yea so...


No, I think it should be naturalistic assumptions, plain and simple.

Have a nice day
Mark
 
Upvote 0

-57

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2015
8,701
1,957
✟77,558.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private

One slight problem for this post....Paul. Paul wrote a letter to Timothy. In the letter Paul instructed the women on what he permitted them to do. (1st Tim 2:11-12). The question is, what did Paul base his instruction to the women on? The answer is Genesis.
"13 For Adam was formed first, and then Eve. 14 And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman who was deceived and fell into transgression"

Genesis is presented as much more than a story or some sort of allegory. Genesis is presented by Paul as literal historical history. Why would Paul base his instruction to women on a event that didn't happen?
 
Upvote 0

-57

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2015
8,701
1,957
✟77,558.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Do you accept species change? The fact of species change was known from the fossil record before Darwin. What Darwin did was propose a theory to understand it. If you deny species change, you aren't just arguing with Charles Darwin.

I accept it. Of course species change..there was a rapid change in species after the 2 of a kind departed the ark and speciated into all the species we currently have on the planet.

You do know that the fossil record for the most part was deposited by the flood waters?
 
Upvote 0

-57

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2015
8,701
1,957
✟77,558.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
You are right, the Bible doesn't say anything about destroying the Garden or removing it.

Yes and no. The bible doesn't come out and say..."the Garden of Eden was destroyed or removed"....BUT....the bible does say "The waters prevailed above the mountains, covering them fifteen cubits deep." Gen 7:20.

One would think at the time of the flood the garden as well as the rest of the planet was ruined.
 
Upvote 0

-57

Well-Known Member
Sep 5, 2015
8,701
1,957
✟77,558.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private

The bible speaks of a new heaven and a new earth. (Rev 21ish) A restoration of sorts....believed by many to restore earth to the prefallen state. To the point that you said "some say that there were no predators before the Fall" Perhaps it's what the following verse is talking about. Of course the evolutionist has to deny it.

Isaiah 11:6 And the wolf will dwell with the lamb, And the leopard will lie down with the young goat, And the calf and the young lion and the fatling together; And a little boy will lead them. 7Also the cow and the bear will graze, Their young will lie down together, And the lionwill eat straw like the ox. 8The nursing child will play by the hole of the cobra, And the weaned child will put his hand on the viper's den
 
Upvote 0

mark kennedy

Natura non facit saltum
Site Supporter
Mar 16, 2004
22,030
7,265
62
Indianapolis, IN
✟594,630.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Democrat

The garden of Eden was an expansion of the creation story, what is featured are domesticated plants. The waters prevailed upon the earth for about a year which would seem to have put quite a strain on the ability of even plants and sea life to have survived. Assuming that the seeds for wild and domesticated plants endured they would have adapted in a couple of generations after the flood.

Apparently the tree of life was either transplanted or somehow recreated in the New Jerusalem according to the Revelation:

On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. (Rev. 22:2 NIV)
Grace and peace,
Mark
 
Upvote 0

Ronald

Exhortations
Site Supporter
Jul 30, 2004
4,620
981
southern
✟111,578.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Republican

Yes, yes, of course, the entire earth was destroyed, 1656 years after the Creation. But prior to that, no mention.
 
Upvote 0