Creationists - Christ's worst enemies

Carico said:

Reality is garbage and nonsensical? Maybe to you, but not to me. It's obvious that you don't have answers to my questions. If you did, you would have a completely rational answer, but since you don't, you replace it with an attack instead. Sounds like conviction to me.

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Carico, that entire post had nothing to do with the ToE whatsoever, you set up a straw men and destroyed it. You don't even know what you're arguing against. I might as well disprove Christianity by describing that Jesus's pet Unicorn couldn't have won the Battle of Midway because it wasn't in season.

Late_Cretaceous said:

Evolution does not make this claim.




Excellent, You have clearly stated that "kind" and "species" are one in the same! Now you can't "re-define" kind to your liking and move the goal posts.

Would you care to explain these Observed Cases of Speciation Occuring?
Species have indeed been observed to evolve into other species! Beside, the term "species" is an artifical construct. Contrary to what many believe they are not neat and tidy categories. There are seamless transitions from one species to another. It is often impossible to classify two organisms as separate species or not. I suggest you look up clines and ring species . Perhaps you could come up with a creationist explanation for those.



"Bred" is the wrong term to use. But DNA and fossil evidence exists. Recorded history is simply too short to have seen large scale evolution.




Nonsensical statement.




Great. An example would be nice.





Cladistically, we are apes. Seriously, we are a species of ape.




I don't think anyone would argue that a chimp and an orangutang are both apes, yet different. Its kind of like Nissans and Fords are both cars, but both different. Pretty mind blowing stuff hey.



That does not make any sense. But you seem to be trying to articulate the old "if we came from apes, why are there still apes today" arguement.
Its kind of like this: Irish setters were developed from English setters, yet there are still english setters (my neighbor has one). Again, pretty mind blowing stuff.





I can't even follow that one. Maybe you need more sleep.


Now you are talking about two supposed theories? What are they exactly?

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And who has witnessed a completely new species coming out of an animal?

Setters are still setters. Chihuahuas are still chihuahuas. I've never seen a Great Dane come out of a chihuahua! have you? The only animals who can mate & produce offspring are those who were programmed to do so. Humans & apes cannot produce offspring together! Yet evolutionists claim that an offspring resembling a human more than an ape came out of an ape? And still, no evolutionist has explained how this is possible except in science fiction.

Again, evolution is a "what if" game just like "Lord of the Rings." It has more to do with the imagination than reality.

Again, evolutionists have at leats 3 different theories as to how humans evolved from apes. 1) mutation 2) it mated with a missing link and 3) the genes were somehow changed because of the behavior of apes (i.e. natural selection, survival of the fittest, & adaptation). None of those conform to any reality, and if any of them alone were the truth, then there would be no need for the other 2 theories, would there?

Garnet2727 said:

Wow.

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The truth hurts. To judge what christianity is based on individuals is a very common problem, it IS NOT about a group of people a denomination, it is about a PERSONAL relationship with GOD, which can not be judge away based on how a certain person way of life or attempt at living a christian life. We all know we can not be perfect. You can not understand it unless you are a part of it. Not all christian do a good job of showing it and a lot of people claim to be christians when they are not. So to say it is a bad religion is responsible for ytour disbelief based on how some one who claims to be a part of it is your own selfpity and misunderstanding of what it truly means to be a follower of christ.

Carico said:

And who has witnessed a completely new species coming out of an animal?

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Have you witnessed a child being born? That's closer to what evolution is.

Setters are still setters. Chihuahuas are still chihuahuas. I've never seen a Great Dane come out of a chihuahua! have you

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So, you assert something that not even the ToE agrees with? What theory are you talking about?

The only animals who can mate & produce offspring are those who were programmed to do so. Humans & apes cannot produce offspring together! Yet evolutionists claim that an offspring resembling a human more than an ape came out of an ape?

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Well, no one here will tell you you can have children with an Ape, so I have NO idea where that came from. But what do you mean by "Yet evolutionists claim that an offspring resembling a human more than an ape came out of an ape?" Is this basically a repeat of your earlier points?

And still, no evolutionist has explained how this is possible except in science fiction.

Again, evolution is a "what if" game just like "Lord of the Rings." It has more to do with the imagination than reality.

Again, evolutionists have at leats 3 different theories as to how humans evolved from apes. 1) mutation 2) it mated with a missing link and 3) the genes were somehow changed because of the behavior of apes (i.e. natural selection, survival of the fittest, & adaptation). None of those conform to any reality, and if any of them alone were the truth, then there would be no need for the other 2 theories, would there?

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No, no human came from apes, it's that whole "common ancestor" thing. Mutation is the random part, "mated with a missin link" ***????, and natural selection is the force that "un-randomizes" evolution. There is only 1 ToE, which is made up of several parts, now, are you willing to learn from your current mistakes and continue to a meaningfull discussion on how Evolution is impossible or must we continue this?

Carico, might I suggest learning what an ape is before you continue to make an ass of yourself.

Oh yea, I forgot to add this, "species", and everything else we name do not hold sway over nature. Nature is not a polite entity which curves to our will. We can change it's course, cut it up, burn it, eat it, but we can't tell it what to do(As of yet!).

Carico said:

Setters are still setters. Chihuahuas are still chihuahuas. I've never seen a Great Dane come out of a chihuahua! have you? The only animals who can mate & produce offspring are those who were programmed to do so. Humans & apes cannot produce offspring together! Yet evolutionists claim that an offspring resembling a human more than an ape came out of an ape? And still, no evolutionist has explained how this is possible except in science fiction.

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And once again you show that you have no idea what evolution is. Evolution does not say that a Great Dane came from a Chihuaha, it says that these different breeds of dogs have a common ancestor that they all branch from. Stop using the "animal A giving birth to animal B" strawman Carico.

Schroeder said:

The truth hurts. To judge what christianity is based on individuals is a very common problem, it IS NOT about a group of people a denomination, it is about a PERSONAL relationship with GOD, which can not be judge away based on how a certain person way of life or attempt at living a christian life. We all know we can not be perfect. You can not understand it unless you are a part of it. Not all christian do a good job of showing it and a lot of people claim to be christians when they are not. So to say it is a bad religion is responsible for ytour disbelief based on how some one who claims to be a part of it is your own selfpity and misunderstanding of what it truly means to be a follower of christ.

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Apparently, your personal relationship with God enables you to make judgements with no knowledge of a person. You have no knowledge of me, other than perhaps a couple of posts, yet you are perfectly comfortable making a post that is insulting as well as untrue. Way to go...another great argument for atheism.

And who has witnessed a completely new species coming out of an animal?

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I have. I just made a trip to the Ozark Mountains to collect a species of darter (genus Etheostoma) that has now evolved enough to be elevated from subspsecies to species status. It was quite remarkable. I am a biologist, in case you were wondering.

I've never seen a Great Dane come out of a chihuahua! have you?

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No, Chihuahuas, in a sense, 'come' from Great Danes. After many thousands of years of humans "forcing" wolves to evolve, we have produced many different breeds of dogs. It took much longer to procude smaller dogs that are more genetically different from wolves than it did to produce larger dogs that are still very similar (malamutes, huskies).

Again, evolutionists have at leats 3 different theories as to how humans evolved from apes. 1) mutation 2) it mated with a missing link and 3) the genes were somehow changed because of the behavior of apes (i.e. natural selection, survival of the fittest, & adaptation). None of those conform to any reality, and if any of them alone were the truth, then there would be no need for the other 2 theories, would there?

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There is a lot of confusion ebout evolution, mostly because most people (like yourself) don't know what they are talking about. Let's turn this around - there are over 600 different branches of Christianity, and there are thousands of religions worldwide. If one of those alone were the truth, there wouldn't be any need for the others, would there? Also, there are different views of Creationism - YEC, theistic evolution, etc. If one of those were the truth, there wouldn't be any need for the others, would there? You have no idea what you are talking about.

In answer to this question, I have heard evolutionists change their stories many times. Some have said that humans are not a different species from apes. So why are we not called apes today & why are apes in zoos & we aren't?

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Because WE (H. s. sapiens) made zoos, smart one. There are many different species of apes. I suggest you go to Wikipedia and read their article on Apes. Here's a quote -

The family Hominidae consisting of gorillas, chimpanzees, orangutans, and humans, collectively known as the "great apes".

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It also doesn't explain how the DNA of another species can get into the DNA of an ape. Oh I know that evolutionists use the word "mutation" which means that cell characteristics can become damaged or changed. But how can they spontaneously develop new characteristics like speech, cognition, the ability to analyze, build buildings, etc.? Just luck? In that case, why not just let cancer cells mutate into healthy ones?

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Your brilliancy amazes me. Why didn't we THINK of that? Of course we should just leave all the cancer patients alone and let them get better! Humans are so silly.

Gene mutations are just one cause of evolution. Organisms have undergone billions of years of evolution. One mutation cannot lead to more intelligence, it takes many, many millions of years for an organism to gain a substantial amount of intelligence. You need to read a few books on evolution before you try to build a case against it.

If it is just luck, then how did the offspring from 2 apes happen to find another offspring from another pair of apes in order to mate and produce a homo sapiens? More luck?

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I think you are getting your ideas about apes mixed up with the historical fact that H. sapiens genetically 'overtook' the neanderthals to produce H. s. sapiens.

But the biblical account of creation conforms completely to the way humans & animals haved mated and produced offspring since the beginning of recorded history.

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Then how do you explain the different subspecies of humans? Hominids originated in Africa, and they were dark skinned animals. After spreading throughout the world, we have evolved into different subspecies (caucasion, hispanic, etc.) Please go read a few books about evolution, then come back and try again.


Heather

Carico said:

I'm here! Which garbage? you mean the garbage that humans have produced humans since the beginning of recorded history? Or the garbage that apes have been breeding apes? So when was the last time you saw anything other than an ape coming from an ape or a human coming from a human except in your imagination?

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Wait...

YOU are the person of Heidi on ChristianForums.net?

If you are... well... Oh my. My perceptions of you have just done a complete 180 for the worse.

tocis said:

Bottom line? Well:

With every passing day, I find it harder and harder to keep myself from feeling nothing but utter hate and contempt for all of christianity. While I know that it's not fair, while I know that most christians are okay, while I know that it's only some fanatics who taint the whole religion, the sheer amount of disgust within me - directed at the arrogance and dishonesty of the fanatics - threatens to overwhelm me. I am close to contemplating leaving this site, lest I some day start to blindly lash out at everything christian, hitting far too many innocents in the process.

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While it may be frustrating at times, do not let it get to you. I will not lash out at all Ásatrú people I see just because the fanatics are extremely violent and racist.

Tocis:
I certainly hope that you can find your way back to Christ. Pagan mumbo jumbo has no answers.

I certainly agree with your title statement that creationists are acting as Christ's enemies. Even as I read your post, I was puzzling over a creationist letter to the paper here, and planning a reply, knowing that whatever I say probably won't be believed by those who most need to hear it.

I doubt that Creationists did anything to damage the image of Christ ever. For 1900 only Creationists were Christians and vice versa. Then Darwin made his theory and people started turning on the Bible. And look where it got us. World Wars, diseases, pain, and social discord.

So, diseases, pain, and social discord came into existace as a DIRECT result of Evolution? You have to be tired of hearing that you don't know what the ToE is, so I'll save the cliche for another time. I didn't bother to mention the WW's because morality, as it is painstakingly stated over, and over again has nothing to do with Evolution.

Carico said:

And who has witnessed a completely new species coming out of an animal?

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[delurk] No one, Why do you ask? We are supposed to be debating evolution.

Carico said:

Setters are still setters. Chihuahuas are still chihuahuas. I've never seen a Great Dane come out of a chihuahua! have you?

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Since you seem so fond of this type of argument I am sure you will have no problem applying it to other areas of belief, right?
I have never seen words come out of a snake or a donkey's mouth, have you?

Carico said:

Yet evolutionists claim that an offspring resembling a human more than an ape came out of an ape? And still, no evolutionist has explained how this is possible except in science fiction.

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No evolutionist has explained it to you because no evolutionist believes it ever occurred. I am no expert but this is how it works as far as I know. Our ape ancestors had offspring that were a tiny tiny bit more similar to a human being than were their parents. This happened time and again over millions of years and many many generations. Eventually (not after a single generation as you are claiming) fully fledged human beings arrived on the scene. We are the accumulation of slight differences added up over the generations. [/lurk]

P.S. I realize this is a simplified version and that our ancestors might have undergone mutations that would make them slightly less human-like. However, over all, there was a general pattern towards what we recognise as being human.

Northern Christian said:

I doubt that Creationists did anything to damage the image of Christ ever. For 1900 only Creationists were Christians and vice versa. Then Darwin made his theory and people started turning on the Bible. And look where it got us. World Wars, diseases, pain, and social discord.

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I guess the flood was for some other reason then, right?

What was the status of the world pre-flood as stated in the Bible?
What was the status of the world that led to the cruxifiction of Christ?

Was the plague around before Darwin published? How about syphilis?

Your revisionist history is noted.

Northern Christian said:

I doubt that Creationists did anything to damage the image of Christ ever. For 1900 only Creationists were Christians and vice versa. Then Darwin made his theory and people started turning on the Bible. And look where it got us. World Wars, diseases, pain, and social discord.

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I have a better explanation for this. In 1855, a material called Rayon was invented. Rayon is cellulose fibres from wood or cotton, which are dissolved in alkali to make a solution called viscose, which is then extruded through a nozzle, or spinneret, into an acid bath to reconvert the viscose into cellulose. This new material was great for clothing, as it absorbed water and was very comfortable to wear. It was only after Rayon clothing came about that we saw the World Wars. Therefore, I deduce that Rayon caused them.

Carico said:

Setters are still setters. Chihuahuas are still chihuahuas. I've never seen a Great Dane come out of a chihuahua! have you? The only animals who can mate & produce offspring are those who were programmed to do so.

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Are you seriously proposing that because nobody has ever seen a great dane come out of a chihuahua, the two animals did not evolve from a common ancestor? Is that what you are claiming?