Creationism vs God...

[Arikay]

Hello,

Some thoughts came to mind and I figured I would write them here. There are three parts: Interpretation, worship and character. I am however going to try to keep it short.
The main question was, whether creationism was trully following god.

Interpretation.
Why was the bible originally written in ancient hebrew and greek and not english? Obviously the answer is that no one would have understood what was being written. So we can assume that the bible was written in a way people could understand along time ago. How many people would have understood modern evolution, or astronomy back then? Probably about as much as they would have understood modern english. so this brings us to also assume that the bible was written in a way that the people would best understand. This would include very basic views on creation and astronomy. anything odd that couldnt be grasped would be a threat to the bible, as many people destroy things they dont understand or dont like. this can be seen by the romans (and other peoples) persecution of the christians. So it would stand to reason that the creation stories in the bible werent ment to be taken literally by people over 2000 years later. Since modern science would have been understood about as well as modern english. It was not included in the bible.

worship.
The bible is written by the hand of man, with the inspiration of god. So the bible wasnt directly created by god. But what has been directly created by god? If god created the earth and the universe, then the universe would have been a direct creation of god. The basic universal language of this universe is Math and science. So the study of the earth and the universe would be closer to studing how god created everything, than the text in a book.

Character.
The final thought is about the character of some creationists. The bible says that lieing and misleading people is a sin and wrong. Many creationists dont do either or dont understand they are doing it. However, there are some that lie and misslead to try and get their views across. This causes a problem, as they say they are holding the bible, the holy book over and above science, but they cant follow the basic principles layed out in that book. Missrepresenting information, and making up other information to fit their needs is not following the principles of the bible, and is going against the very book they believe in. Even though they believe they are spreading gods work, they are actually going against some of gods basic principles.

Just some thoughts I had.

 

[JohnR7]

Today at 07:37 PM Arikay said this in Post #1
How many people would have understood modern evolution, or astronomy back then?

Evolution has it's roots in Plato and Aristotle. They were always at odds with the Hebrew and then the Christian system.

When Paul went to Rome, and they found out he had a new teaching, they took him to Mar's Hill to present his teaching. Some people accepted it, some rejected it, others simply had not made up their mind and said we will hear more later. Most likely when Paul left they went back to debating and discussing all the same tired old arguements over and over again.

 

[bonkers]

i can't read all of your post right now because i'm just on for two seconds but for the first part of your post.....a lond time ago the egyptians were the greatest doctors, they learned by trial and eror. They had no idea why the things they did worked but they knew it worked. They just didn't have a mocroscope to look at the bacteria and stuff so they couldn't know. Just because the people in bible times didn't understand about all that science and astronomy and stuff dousn't mean that God couldn't have told them things and they could have known things themselves.

 

[Hanani]

ok

interpretation: your logic does not stand you are stating people back then could not understand how the universe was "actualy" created so the bible used a story to tell it to the people of that time because they were simple this is simply not the case if it was the case then you are saying there is no God in wich case someone on earth created the bible and if everyone back then was so simple creation of something so complex would not be possible
or God lied to us wich is against Gods character and therefore is impossible

worship: This is were your first point could have been melded into something correct God did understand since he was infinitly wise and we were not that we couldn't fathom how the universe was created and we still haven't been able to so he put what was important beyond all else in the bible so it was easly accesable by all

character: this happens no matter what you are talking about it is not exclusive to christianity or even religion people are flawed and make mistakes or blatently lie to try and make themselves come across as correct this is wrong no matter how you slice it if you don't believe it's wrong then you believe the end justifies the meens wich means you believe in situational morality wich means you have no morals wich in turn makes me ask why do anything at all because without morals you might as well go on a killing spree then go off yourself

 

[JohnR7]

Today at 07:37 PM Arikay said this in Post #1
This causes a problem, as they say they are holding the bible, the holy book over and above science, but they cant follow the basic principles layed out in that book. 

You can not really teach truth. You can only help people to discover it for themselves. Some people just repeat the same tired old arguements over and over again, that does not represent God at all, but just the thoughts and opinions of man. They do not represent God, nor do they represent the thoughts of God.

Jesus told His followers to pray and to fast, and to wait to be endued with power from on High. At pentacost that power fell on the church and 120 were converted. Peter was preaching. Then later on 5000 were converted. They then went out and took the message to the whole world. Where did they get the message from? Not man, but from God, and it was God who gave them the power to take the message to the world.

To many people have a form of Godlyness, but no power. People are tired of dead religion, and they want power. Some will turn away from God and turn to satan for power. But others just keep seeking after God, they keep seeking after truth, they keep seeking after the power and the greatness of God. If they keep on keeping on, then they will receive what they want and find what they are looking for, if they persevere and do not give up. That is why, we need to continue steadfast and consistant with God.

Science has a lot of power, they have the Atomic bomb. But the resurrection power of God is more powerful. No one has more power to offer than Jesus, no one has more of the greatness of God, then Jesus. As His disciples said, He had the words of life. No other teacher had to offer what Jesus had to offer them.

.

 

[Hanani]

props bonkers this is true why do you think God set down strict rules on meats and touching dead bodies and such for his children because even though they had no concept of germs God knew how things worked so he instructed them in things such as not touching dead bodies and stuff like that

also another thought what about indor plumbing romans had it but it was lost throughout the darkages just points to the fact that sometimes we are more ignorant then our ancestors wich you insunuated to be simple another example of this is greek/roman fire a naval weapon we still have no clue what the ingrediants for this great naval weapon are but they used it often in the days of the empire of athens

 

[Arikay]

Interpretation: How is my logic flawed? People not too long ago believed the earth was flat and was the center of the universe. It took awhile to make many people understand that wasnt the truth. So I dont think people even further back would understand modern physics. god didnt lie. The point of the bible was to teach about inner spirit etc. Using symbols and metaphor to do it, isnt lieing. As someone else pointed out in another thread, if the bible is to be taken litterally, then it means that god is very much against canines as "dogs" are not allowed in heaven.

Character: I agree. I didnt say it was exclusive to creationism. Just that being a hypocrite doesnt lend your (the hypocrites) case any more merrit. and if they trully believed in the bible, they also should believe that they will be going to hell (unless god is rather kind to them ) for all the commandment breaking they had done.

Today at 05:44 PM Hanani said this in Post #4 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=680451#post680451)

ok

interpretation: your logic does not stand you are stating people back then could not understand how the universe was "actualy" created so the bible used a story to tell it to the people of that time because they were simple this is simply not the case if it was the case then you are saying there is no God in wich case someone on earth created the bible and if everyone back then was so simple creation of something so complex would not be possible
or God lied to us wich is against Gods character and therefore is impossible

worship: This is were your first point could have been melded into something correct God did understand since he was infinitly wise and we were not that we couldn't fathom how the universe was created and we still haven't been able to so he put what was important beyond all else in the bible so it was easly accesable by all

character: this happens no matter what you are talking about it is not exclusive to christianity or even religion people are flawed and make mistakes or blatently lie to try and make themselves come across as correct this is wrong no matter how you slice it if you don't believe it's wrong then you believe the end justifies the meens wich means you believe in situational morality wich means you have no morals wich in turn makes me ask why do anything at all because without morals you might as well go on a killing spree then go off yourself

 

[Arikay]

Hmm. Hindsight is 20/20. They did some amazing things back then. But these are still basic compared to modern physics. and modern physics hasnt even scratched the surface.

Its really easy to see things now, and then atribute them to things they did then. However, its still basic things.

So does that mean, since god told them "dont touch fire, it will burn you" they understood fire? How it works? How to prevent it? How to make it work for them like creating steam for a steam engine?

Today at 05:49 PM Hanani said this in Post #6 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=680463#post680463)

props bonkers this is true why do you think God set down strict rules on meats and touching dead bodies and such for his children because even though they had no concept of germs God knew how things worked so he instructed them in things such as not touching dead bodies and stuff like that

also another thought what about indor plumbing romans had it but it was lost throughout the darkages just points to the fact that sometimes we are more ignorant then our ancestors wich you insunuated to be simple another example of this is greek/roman fire a naval weapon we still have no clue what the ingrediants for this great naval weapon are but they used it often in the days of the empire of athens

 

[Hanani]

they didn't understand how it worked but we figured it out eventualy but God did not lie or use a metaphor to convey his point also if the bible is a metaphor then why would there be parables in the bible a story within a story to teach a lesson is more redundant then i care to think about

and i don't remember the bible saying dogs aren't aloud in heaven but i do believe somewhere it says animals don't have souls don't know exact verse but i think something along those lines are in there somewhere not something i ever realy cared about so i don't know for sure but ....

and as far as ancients not being able to grasp concepts we have today well i do believe they were much more complex then you give them credit for much of the math and science that we base things on today are from complex ideas originating from back then and example for math would be something like pythagorian thyrom don't quote on spelling but you know what i mean also as someone else mentioned the egyptions the pyrimids were engineering wonders and still are in some aspects especialy in regard to how some of them line up with shadows also pryamids served as a place not only of the dead but some times of science some pryamids were used as we would use telascopes today

 

[Arikay]

Im not saying they were stone age, but I am saying that what they knew was basic back then.

A lot of their advanced math and science is high school level now.

So you believe the bible is the literal truth?
There are plenty of problems with the bible when its taken as litteral proof. Many problems can be fixed if you Interpret the bible. but once you interpret you are takeing it literally anymore.

But maybe what im saying is just falling on deaf ears. oh wel

Today at 06:07 PM Hanani said this in Post #9 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=680503#post680503)

they didn't understand how it worked but we figured it out eventualy but God did not lie or use a metaphor to convey his point also if the bible is a metaphor then why would there be parables in the bible a story within a story to teach a lesson is more redundant then i care to think about

and i don't remember the bible saying dogs aren't aloud in heaven but i do believe somewhere it says animals don't have souls don't know exact verse but i think something along those lines are in there somewhere not something i ever realy cared about so i don't know for sure but ....

and as far as ancients not being able to grasp concepts we have today well i do believe they were much more complex then you give them credit for much of the math and science that we base things on today are from complex ideas originating from back then and example for math would be something like pythagorian thyrom don't quote on spelling but you know what i mean also as someone else mentioned the egyptions the pyrimids were engineering wonders and still are in some aspects especialy in regard to how some of them line up with shadows also pryamids served as a place not only of the dead but some times of science some pryamids were used as we would use telascopes today

 

[Arikay]

Add on: If the bible is telling the truth, then why is god trying to lie to us? If the bible is telling the truth, then god has set up the world to be one big giant lie. It lies about its age, it lies about its past, etc. So either the bible is mainly symbolic. or god made a big lie and stuck us on it.

The global flood would be one thing where there is a big chance it must be symbology because it couldnt have happend (and you cant say godidit to answer the problems of the flood, because the bible doesnt say that god helped noah not die, so we cant put words and actions into his mouth).

 

[Hanani]

deaf ears not here not until you start repeating yourself over and over but i'll tell you if that starts happening


in 2000 years maybe what science and math are figuring out now will be hs level material this is a mute point we are always advancing but just because they hadn't advanced to the level we are at back then doesn't mean they weren't capable

and i c no problem with taking the bible as literal and i don't interpret the bible i interpret translation because not everyones is the same simply because as i'm sure you know not every word in english has a corrasponding word in other languages and visa versa

 

[Hanani]

i don't c how the bible lies to us or set the world up as a giant lie or lies about it's age or the past

and your going to have to tell me what you believe are the problems with the flood if you want me to shoot them down just saying there are problems with it doesn't say anything

and i have no clue what you meant by God helping noah not die plz be more specific

 

[Arikay]

Well, the literal translation of the bible and science (the study of the earth, etc) dont match up. One of them must be lieing. God created the earth, and inspired the bible. Since the study of the earth and the literal study of the bible, dont mesh, then god must have made one of them lie to us. However, if you dont take the bible literally and you take it symbolically, then neither are lieing.

The flood:
Im sure there are quite a few more problems, but. There are the problems of only 8 people building a boat of that size (although this one might be able to be done). How all the animals of the world where able to fit onto the boat. How all the animals got back to islands after the flood was over. How 8 people were able to care for that many animals. There are quite a few more like these, but I have heard (sometimes bad and other times reaching, answers to many of them).

Then there is the flood math questions. I did some math about the flood based on info in the bible.
Some of the info:
Aprox volume of flood water = 988,042,975 Miles cubed. If it was put into a sphere, it would have a radius of 617 miles.
From my quick calculations thats almost 3 times the amount of water in the oceans.

First of all would be, where did all that water come from, and where did it go?

If it rained for 40 24 hour days. Then it would have rained 17.5 gallons of water, per square foot per second. Now, some water is said to have come from the ground. so lets say only 25% of all the water came from rain. Then it would have rained aprox 4.4 gallons of water per square foot per second over the entire earth. This would equal 37 pounds of water hitting the earth per square foot per second.

How did the ark stay afloat from this massive down poor? How did it stay together and not get destroyed? That gopher wood is some mighty strong stuff

The flood story then says that an olive branch was brought back and then adam knew that it was safe. However, an olive branch would never have survived this down pour. Neither would any other plant. Most trees and plants would have been destroyed by this much water. Or crushed under the weight once the water level had grown above them.

Then there is of course the fact that science has yet to find any data that says there was a global flood. We have lots of data about the mass extinction of the dinosaurs, and that happend millions of years ago (according to science) but we have no data that supports a massive flood.

This is just a short list of questions and reasons of why the flood story cant be a true story about a Global flood.



If you want more info, im sure I could get it

Today at 06:21 PM Hanani said this in Post #13 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=680532#post680532)

i don't c how the bible lies to us or set the world up as a giant lie or lies about it's age or the past

and your going to have to tell me what you believe are the problems with the flood if you want me to shoot them down just saying there are problems with it doesn't say anything

and i have no clue what you meant by God helping noah not die plz be more specific

 

[lucaspa]

Today at 08:32 PM JohnR7 said this in Post #2

Evolution has it's roots in Plato and Aristotle. They were always at odds with the Hebrew and then the Christian system. 

  Once again your science and history are wrong.  It is creationism that is based in Plato and Aristotle.  Both taught "typology", that is, basic kinds, and taught no change between kinds.  Sound familiar?  Aristotle taught that these kinds were imperfect as they were only reflections or shadows of divine thought.  That somewhere in the mind of deity was the "blueprint", if you will, of these basic types.

 

[lucaspa]

Today at 09:21 PM Hanani said this in Post #13

i don't c how the bible lies to us or set the world up as a giant lie or lies about it's age or the past

and your going to have to tell me what you believe are the problems with the flood if you want me to shoot them down just saying there are problems with it doesn't say anything

and i have no clue what you meant by God helping noah not die plz be more specific

Hanani, get and read The Biblical Flood: A Case History of the Church's Response to Extrabiblical Evidence by Davis A. Young. Young is an evangelical Christian and a professional geologist (yes, with a Ph.D. and a professorship at Calvin College).  Young details the problems with the Flood as they occurred historically. Another source is Gillespie's Genesis and Geology which is now out in a new printing.

You can also go here -- http://www.wheaton.edu/ACG/ -- which is the home page of the Affiliation of Christian Geologists and that will get you started on some of the falsifications of Noah's Flood.

 

[Hanani]

seing as i'm not the church as i whole why would i care to read a book about problems with there theories wich i may not ascribe to due to the fact that there theories may change with each different denomination and sometimes with each different leader inside denominations

and lucaspa it is your history that is flawed plato and arristotle were some of the first philosophers that tried to explain creation without God therefore they would be the beginings of evalution in a very general sence

 

[Hanani]

Today at 03:03 AM Arikay said this in Post #14

Well, the literal translation of the bible and science (the study of the earth, etc) dont match up. One of them must be lieing. God created the earth, and inspired the bible. Since the study of the earth and the literal study of the bible, dont mesh, then god must have made one of them lie to us. However, if you dont take the bible literally and you take it symbolically, then neither are lieing.

as we have covered before science obviously changes with time and i'm convinced that if we ever find out everything it will point to the literal translation of the bible wich some things already point to

 

[Arikay]

Im not sure where you are getting your information, but its constantly pointing away from the literal interpretation of the bible.

As you can see with the problems I posted about the global flood.

Today at 07:23 PM Hanani said this in Post #18 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=680687#post680687)

as we have covered before science obviously changes with time and i'm convinced that if we ever find out everything it will point to the literal translation of the bible wich some things already point to

 

[lucaspa]

Today at 08:44 PM Hanani said this in Post #4

interpretation: your logic does not stand you are stating people back then could not understand how the universe was "actualy" created so the bible used a story to tell it to the people of that time because they were simple this is simply not the case if it was the case then you are saying there is no God

I lost your logic here.  How did you end up that the argument leads to a conclusion there is no God?

First, people then were simple.  Did they have microscopes, calculus, telescopes, etc?  Were there Hebrew words for "gene", "deoxyribonucleic acid", "protein", "amino acid", "geological era", "reproductive isolation", "speciation", etc, etc. etc.

Do you have kids? Or young nieces nephews?  If you do you know that at about age 3 or 4 they start asking a lot of questions: why is the sky blue? how does the TV work? how come bleach gets clothes whiter? where does electricity come from?  

Do you give them detailed answers?  For the sky, do you go into light refraction off water vapor and the separation of wavelengths (which means telling them light is a wave) and each group of wavelengths is a different color?  Or do you give them a simple, but inaccurate, answer that fits the little knowledge they have?  Later, when they get older and have learned more, then you can tell them the correct answer.

Now, aren't we "children of God" according to Christianity?  So what is the problem with God treating all of humanity as children and giving them the important who and why of creation in the Bible but set in a very simple, but inaccurate, how.  After all, the actual how God put in Creation so that as humanity grew up, we could find it for ourselves.

character: this happens no matter what you are talking about it is not exclusive to christianity or even religion people are flawed and make mistakes or blatently lie to try and make themselves come across as correct this is wrong no matter how you slice it

But the problem here is that, for Christians, they supposedly believe it is wrong because God told them -- the 9th commandment -- and Christians are supposed to break the commandments.  The professional creationists betray their faith while they are supposedly defending it.  How can you defend truth with lies?

The point, Hanani, is that creationists are a great danger to Christianity.  They really aren't a danger to evolution. But creationism has the ability to destroy Christianity.