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Creationism=religious philosophy, evolution=science

Astridhere

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Yet again you try to describe a difference between humans and other apes, yet again you fail to answer the question. It really is quite sad that you do not understand the difference. If you do but cannot answer the question, why not just admit it?


What part of my language and higher reasoning ability did you not understand.

You lot have got yourselves in a mess trying to compare mankind to an common ancestor you have no descriptor for. You have more apes coming in and out of the human line than you know what to do with because of this error. Now you want me to be the same kind of goose as your reseachers.

The difference is not in the morphology, as many features are homologous between non related species. This is what gets you lot in trouble all the time. This is why you can't keep human ancestors and keep shovelling them off to sister species and cousins.

You expect me to make the same blunder then use it against me. It ain't going to work. The difference between man and beast is being created in the image of God with sophisticated language and higher reasoning ability. Just because I cannot produce 100 years of reclassifications and mistakes does not mean I cannot demonstrate the discontinuity between man and ape. Deal with it!

The refute so far is "we evos know the paw print looks like a paw print but it isn't a paw print because we say so as it would destroy evolution so it just isn't". Let me hear the sweet sorry tune of convergent evolution or this paw just happens to have poofed onto a lizard.

The big point being evolution is falsified with 395myo paws and you will need some comical wildly non plausible scenarios to escape this fact and save evolution from falsification.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Which animals that are not mammals have paws? Regardless, paws are aligned with mammals and what is found is a paw with not a word from these researchers to speak to it as if ignorance is going to save the day
My point is that the impressions are not mammalian, are not paws, and may not even be footprints at all. It is your opinion that the impressions were made by something with paws, but that opinion is not shared by the experts.

Read the link I supplied and stop asking for the same evidence over and over
On the contrary, all you've cited is a couple of pop media articles. So, I ask you again: what evidence do you have for the claim that the impressions have been verified as being made by an animal? What evidence do you have, beyond your own personal glance at a picture on the Internet, that the tracks were made by something with a paw?

and clearly there is a paw print... These footprints do not just look similar to a bear foot print, they look exactly like bear footprints..
This is your own opinion. You are not an expert in tracking animals, least of all an expert in ursine footprints. The experts in the field, those who spend their lives studying animal tracks, can only deduce that the animal was a tetrapod - if the tracks were made by an animal at all.

Quite frankly, your opinion means squat. Unless you can provide actual evidence that the impressions are a) made by an animal, b) made by a mammal, c) paw prints, and/or d) made by a bear, all you have is your own biased opinion and a non-descript photo on the Internet.

It's what a reliance on verification and hard data does to you. You, on the other hand, see a fossil and don't go any further than "It looks a bit like a crocodile, therefore it is a crocodile". You do no further analysis, no testing of your claim - you just stick with your gut feeling.

Luckily, that's not how science works. If it were, we wouldn't be able to talk over the Internet like we do.

We are not taliking about life on Mars. Desperation is apparent
*sigh*
I mentioned Mars because is serves as an example of how first impressions can be wrong. Your reliance on your own first impressions (made through a .jpg image, no less) is your downfall: you have no data to corroborate your claim.

This silly creationist was bright enough to totally falsify evolution...deal with it as you have nothing more than your opinion to put forward and you have not produced one chard of evidence in your defence A
Nor do I need to. You insist that you've "totally falsif[ied] evolution", yet you haven't. You've cited a set of tracks, which the experts have deduced to be that of some unidentified tetrapod. That's it. That's all the evidence you've produced. That doesn't falsify evolution in the slightest.

However, you make the additional claim that these prints are that of a mammal (citing some imaginary 'pad print'), and not just any mammal: a bear. This isn't supported by the evidence. This isn't attested for by any expert or scientific publication whatsoever. It is solely based on your own, inexpert interpretation of a single picture on the Internet - and that, my friend, doesn't falsify anything.

This is your opinion, nothing more. The experts, which include those who can actually tell footprints apart, cannot deduce anything more than the prints were made by a tetrapod. Why should I trust your biased opinion over that of a multitude of experts and scientists?
 
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Astridhere

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One can woffle on about what Darwin said all day. We all know Darwin was simplistic. Epigenetic inheritance and HGT is just the start of Darwins problems which both have nothing to do with population genetics nor vertical inheritance or mutations.....

Even Darwin cannot explain 395 million year old pawprints.


"Ahlberg insists the tracks are genuine prints. "You can see anatomical details consistent with a footprint, including sediments displaced by a foot coming down," he says. "There is no way these could be formed by a natural process."
Discovery pushes back date of first four-legged animal : Nature News

It is good to see rearchers and evolutionists scurry off in ignorance when evidence challenges their status quo.

So evolutionists are happy to accept the Laetoli footprints as evidence of a 3.5ft curved fingered creature with bipedalism but wish to ignore a tetrapod footprint that also looks exactly like a bear footprint because its dating does not align with evolution. Interesting to say the least. Fraudulent misrepresentation to the public and voluntary ignorance to say it like it is..

Evolution is the biggest fraud ever perpetrated on humanity.

Again ..Creation=Science, Evolution=Ignorance it seems, which isn't even a philosophy.
 
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Astridhere

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You should listen to me because your researchers have not said a word about the obvious. In fact one researcher in the article himself suggests that this evidence will overturn current verterbrae phylogeny by simply being a tetrapod. How much more damaging will it be to actually open their eyes and see a clearly defined paw print. They cannot attribute a paw to a lizard or something that has just evolved from the sea. Regardless, it is a fully terrestrial creature..a kind...that appears soon after the cambrian creation period as attested by the fossil record.

"The tracks are also ten million years older than the oldest known fossils of lobe-finned fishes called elpistostegids, which are widely considered to be transitional forms between fish and tetrapods."
Oldest Land-Walker Tracks Found--Pushes Back Evolution

There are many more examples..

Devonian Tetrapod Trackways

Devonian Times - Tetrapod Trackways


Your so called science is nothing more than grandious and non plausible scenarios to refute evidence for creation in that kinds appeared soon after the cambrian and you have post Cambrian & Devonian tetrapod footprints that prove it.

Your bird evolution and dino to bird evidence is falling apart and modern birds are being dated further and further back now to 212my and there are bird footprints to prove it.
Ancient bird-like footprints found - 26 June 2002 - New Scientist


Your human line is a mess with most direct human ancestors being discredited as such and dethroned to cousins at best.

Darls, you do not have evidence for any of your claims back past the family/subfamily rank. You do have non plausible scenarios and a mess of bones thrown together under some assumption of similarity eg dogs, cats & bears.

Tetrapod footprints, even without being mammalian, demonstrate that more terrestrial kinds were created soon after the creation period in the Cambrian ended. There are no transistional fossils there are simply created kinds, in this case fully terrestrial kinds, appearing in the fossil record.

This supports creation and the instant creation of various kinds, not the gradual evolution from sea to land. It is a myth.

Again the science supports creation comfortably but is nothing more than a headache for evolutionists.
 
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Astridhere

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Seriously fully terrestrial tetrapods at 395mya are testimony to kinds being here shortly after the rise of fishes in the devonian. Modern Bird footprints dated to 220mya shows birds were doing well also at that time and predate dinosaurs. There is no evidence to suggest the biblical account of creation is in error. Yet there appears to be adequate evidence to suggest the evidence for evolution is in error

The scientific evidence for creation continues to mount while turning evolution into a philosophical scenario.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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I am well aware of what the experts say. We knew the tetrapods first emerged around 300-400 million years ago (this prediction is what lead to the discovery of Tiktaalik). This new discovery pushes back the origin of tetrapoda by less than an order of magnitude. An interesting discovery, but I think the abstract is being somewhat overly dramatic. Ultimately, however, this discovery is not a big hiccup: we already knew tetrapods first emerged from the oceans in the order of 10[sup]8[/sup] years ago, and this simply serves to refine that date by an order of 1[sup]6[/sup] years.

The obviousness of the paw prints demonstrates exactly what kind of tetrapod it was...a the bear kind.
Says you. No expert of publication of any kind supports your own inexpert opinion.

Thank you. I did not see that article cited in any of your previous posts. Interesting, however, how there is no mention of any pad or mammalian trait, despite your insistence. Any scientist who could place a mammal in the middle Devonian would be hailed as as great a scientist as Darwin, Einstein, and Hawking. It would be the next great paradigm shift.

But, conspicuously, despite the obvious acclaim and reward of such a discovery, there's not a single mention of any ursine tracks.

Just being tetrapod footprints is enough to bamboozle your verterbrae phylogeny so that it is as mesy as the rest.
Why, exactly? As I said before, we already knew tetrapods emerged 300-400 million years ago. We used that estimate to predict where such a fossil of such a transition should be found, we went digging, and, lo and behold, we found Tiktaalik, a species that has every hallmark of an ancestral tetrapod recently emerged from the oceans. These tracks serve to push back the date of the first tetrapod by a few million years. This does absolutely nothing to established scientific knowledge on evolution, except to say that Tiktaalik wasn't the first tetrapod - something that was quite probably anyway.

So, why, exactly, did the observation of tetrapod footprints in the time-scale where we should expect them "bamboozle [our] verterbrae [sic] phylogeny"?

Your opinion means less than a blank page as your whole refute is based on their being no actual research behind the article..and there is and.. You ought to know better.
My 'opinion' is a simple reiteration of the facts: there is nothing in any article or publication that you have cited that verifies your claim that the prints are ursine. I have made no subjective remark or interpretation. All I'm doing is simply pointing out that nothing you've cited supports your subjective opinion.

No the fossil of ambulocetus natans looks more like the skeleton of a crocodile and there is no need to make monsters and mythical intermediates. I am not talking about the misreprentations sketched, I am talking about the actual fossil evidence
Exactly. You took a look at A. natans, thought it looked like a bit of a crocodile (what, are you an expert on the osteology of crocodillians now, are you?), and then proceeded to dismiss every expert opinion and analysis on the subject. You would be amazed what you can tell from a creature's skeleton - including whether or not it's a mammal. A. natans? It's a mammal. For instance, crocodiles, like all quadrupedal reptiles, have their legs out to their sides, splayed. A. natans, like all quadrupedal mammals, had its legs down beneath it. It is, in no way, a crocodile. It is more closely related you and me than it is to the crocodile. It superficially looks like a crocodile, and may well have occupied the same ecological niche as a crocodile - but it's not a crocodile.

Evolutionists have no idea how science works as they think non plausible scenarios is evidence with merit, as demonstrated
You go on thinking that. Meanwhile, actual scientists will continue to make working, practical breakthroughs using established scientific knowledge - including evolution. That medicine you took? A product of evolution. That plane you flew in? Built using evolutionary principles. That multi-resistant bacteria we knew in advance to fight? Foreknowledge using evolution.

Ahh yes...of course...Evolutionists should know what it feels like to be wrong. You hardly notice the recants anymore.
Err... you realise that that hypothesis was utterly unrelated to evolution, right? That all of science experiences disproof? You do realise that the ability to disprove one's theories and discard them accordingly is the greatest strength of science, right?

Doing exactly what we'd expect it to. There is nothing new about that finding. We already knew tetrapods existed during the Devonian, as evidenced by Tiktaalik and comparative dearth and abundance of tetrapod fossils before and after, respectively.

Actually simply being a tetrapod footprint falsifies tiktaalik the famous first tetrapod is now just another flop. ..just like the coelacanth fraud.
Err... except Tiktaalik doesn't need to be the first tetrapod, nor was it ever touted as such - we always knew that the odds of finding the first tetrapod were astronomical. The key point about Tiktaalik is that it was a tetrapod with all the features we predicted it would have, found in exactly the right geological stratum we predicted we would find it in. Tiktaalik has all the hallmarks of a transition from aquatic to terrestrial locomotion - the rudimentary reptilian features on top of a fundamentally aquatic form. Exactly as we predicted, using evolution. Whether or not it was the first tetrapod is utterly irrelevant to its importance.

The fact that the footprint is also clearly looks like a paw is just icing on the cake.
In your opinion. An opinion shared by no one else.



Heavens, a lizard with pads on its feet!



Oh my word, IT'S A BEAR!!!

You should listen to me because your researchers have not said a word about the obvious.
Bingo. All we have is your opinion. It is your own, personal opinion that the print is ursine, and any silence on the part of the actual researchers who've been there and studied it (instead of, y'know, peering at a single frame over the Internet), is because of some great conspiracy. Don't you think, if they were so frightened of evolution being overturned, that they'd simply not report the findings at all?

Regardless, it is a fully terrestrial creature..a kind...that appears soon after the cambrian creation period as attested by the fossil record.
Oh, you mean the Cambrian explision? A period that lasted two million years?
 
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USincognito

a post by Alan Smithee
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"At this time, 395mya, creatures should have just been crawling onto the land."
"Regardless, it is a fully terrestrial creature..a kind...that appears soon after the cambrian creation period as attested by the fossil record."

As if I didn't have enough reasons to stop taking Astrid seriously...

485mya-395mya = 90 million years.

That's your interpretation of "soon".
 
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Psudopod

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I understood it perfectly, it was just utterly irrelevant to the question. Okay, I think you genuinely do not understand what I am asking so lets see if I can break it down a little to try and help you get your head round it.

Mammals are defined as " Mammals (formally Mammalia /məˈmeɪli.ə/) are members of a class of air-breathing vertebrate animals characterized by the possession of hair, three middle ear bones, and mammary glands functional in mothers with young." from wikipedia. Now, many deer have antlers. There is nothing in the description about antlers, so does that mean deer are not mammals? No, of course not. We define deer as mammals because they meet all the criteria, ie they have hair, give birth to live young, have mammary glands, not because they have extra features. Antlers are part of what makes deer, deer and not foxes or elephants.

Does this make sense? If you can't get your head round this, then you really shouldn't trying to classify any animal, because you don't understand the very basics.
 
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Shemjaza

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Remember, 4000 years is easily long enough for every species on the Earth to have developed from a few thousand massively inbred "kinds"... 90 million years is too short for a fish to grow legs.
 
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AV1611VET

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Remember, 4000 years is easily long enough for every species on the Earth to have developed from a few thousand massively inbred "kinds"... 90 million years is too short for a fish to grow legs.
I don't care if Mother Nature had 600 quintillion years; if God set a boundary that nature can't cross, no amount of time is going to help.

You might as well try to walk to Mars in real time -- you'll never make it.
 
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AV1611VET

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So where's the one that animals can't evolve past?
What do you mean, 'where is it'?

Haven't I been through this with you guys already?

Or were you asleep in class that day?
 
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lucaspa

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Remember, 4000 years is easily long enough for every species on the Earth to have developed from a few thousand massively inbred "kinds"... 90 million years is too short for a fish to grow legs.

1. 4,000 years is not enough time for all the speciation events necessary to produce the variety of species from a few thousand massively inbred "kinds". Remember, those inbred kinds are going to be deficient in genetic diversity. That's what "inbred" means. 4,000 years is not enough time to introduce that genetic variation.

2. Fish already had 4 appendages, remember? "legs" are modified fins. So 90 million years is more than enough time to modify something that already exists.

Actually, the discovery of Hox genes has shown that it is very easy to make large visible modifications like this. You only need one gene, not thousands. For instance, growing a complete tail needs a single amino acid modification of just one gene -- the Manx gene.

Getting the six legs of the insect body from the hundreds/thousands of legs of centipedes/millipedes needs just one base in the Ubx gene to change.
 
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lucaspa

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I don't care if Mother Nature had 600 quintillion years; if God set a boundary that nature can't cross, no amount of time is going to help.

But God never set any such boundary. Phylogenetic analysis of the base sequences in DNA from hundreds of divergent species shows there is no such boundary.

You have taken Psalm 74:17a completely out of context and, in the process, brought false witness against God. Not good, AV.

Psalm 74 is talking about the apparent abandoment of Israel by God.
" O God, why hast thou cast [us] off for ever? [why] doth thine anger smoke against the sheep of thy pasture? "

The Psalmist doesn't understand why God did this, because certainly God has the power to protect Israel:
"Why withdrawest thou thy hand, even thy right hand? pluck [it] out of thy bosom. For God [is] my King of old, working salvation in the midst of the earth. Thou didst divide the sea by thy strength: thou brakest the heads of the dragons in the waters. "

Verse 17 is part of the listing of that power, not an absolute statement of what God did for all the earth and everything in it. In fact, it's a reflection of the prevailing idea that the earth is flat with definite boundaries. Look at the whole verse:

"Thou hast set all the borders of the earth: thou hast made summer and winter." This isn't talking biology, it's talking about physical boundaries to the earth.

Verses 19-24 are an appeal for God to act, since God can act.
" deliver not the soul of thy turtledove unto the multitude [of the wicked]: forget not the congregation of thy poor for ever. ... Arise, O God, plead thine own cause: remember how the foolish man reproacheth thee daily. "

I would hope that you feel shame for twisting scripture out of its meaning.
 
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