Creationism and Karma

[Notedstrangeperson]

Of all the doctrines that have been occasioned by human deformity, none is more dismal than the belief that it is due to some moral failing.​

- Armand Marie Leroi​

Leroi called this the 'Mark of Cain Fallacy' - for killing his brother, Cain was forever cursed with a mark signifying the sin he commited. Personally I'd call it the 'Fall of Adam Fallacy' ...

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This is a subject I've been waffling on about for a while. It's the idea that everythig bad in the world - disease, deformity, natural disasters, genetic disorders etc. - is the result of human sin. This is karma.

Karma is not a Christian concept but for some odd reason it seems to have wormed its way into Creationism. I've seen Creationists argue, in all seriousness, that before the Fall animals did not eat meat, there was no disease, no natural disasters, everything lived forever (since there was no death).

This is nonsense because it wrongly suggests that anything bad which happens to us is the result of God's wrath (such as this charming thread). It's also nonsense because the Bible actually teaches the opposite:

As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.​

- John 9:1-3 (NIV)​

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Any thoughts?​

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

Obviously not all creationists believe these things, but for those who do, could you answer these questions:

1. IF eating meat a result of human sin whyy aren't the majority of Christians vegetarians? (Incidently many Hindus and Buddhists, whose religions have a strong belief in karma, are vegetarians.)

2. IF natural disasters are a result of God's wrath, why do the frequencies of natural disasters depend on where you live rather than the number of believers? Both the USA (with a high number of Christians) and Japan (with a high number of atheists) often suffer from natural disasters. Secular Britian however rarely does.

3. IF all humans are cursed by Adam's sin, why are some people so much worse off than others? Why are some born healthy and others born sick? At least teaches Karma that the punishment fits the individual.

 

[juvenissun]

Of all the doctrines that have been occasioned by human deformity, none is more dismal than the belief that it is due to some moral failing.​

- Armand Marie Leroi​

Leroi called this the 'Mark of Cain Fallacy' - for killing his brother, Cain was forever cursed with a mark signifying the sin he commited. Personally I'd call it the 'Fall of Adam Fallacy' ...

-----------------

This is a subject I've been waffling on about for a while. It's the idea that everythig bad in the world - disease, deformity, natural disasters, genetic disorders etc. - is the result of human sin. This is karma.

Karma is not a Christian concept but for some odd reason it seems to have wormed its way into Creationism. I've seen Creationists argue, in all seriousness, that before the Fall animals did not eat meat, there was no disease, no natural disasters, everything lived forever (since there was no death).

This is nonsense because it wrongly suggests that anything bad which happens to us is the result of God's wrath (such as this charming thread). It's also nonsense because the Bible actually teaches the opposite:

As he went along, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?”, “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life.​

- John 9:1-3 (NIV)​

​

Any thoughts?​

This is, in fact, an extremely common interpretation on human behavior. And it is best illustrated by the story of Job. If Job did not sin (did some wrong things in secrecy), why would he suffer? All arguments made by the three wise friends of Job are pretty strong on this reasoning/recognition.

However, I fail to see the tie of this misconception with creationism. We are talking about sinful acts, not sinful nature. Your OP actually entangled idea of two different scopes. Jesus says that the blind did not sin, does not mean the blind is not sinful.

 

[juvenissun]

Obviously not all creationists believe these things, but for those who do, could you answer these questions:

1. IF eating meat a result of human sin whyy aren't the majority of Christians vegetarians? (Incidently many Hindus and Buddhists, whose religions have a strong belief in karma, are vegetarians.)

2. IF natural disasters are a result of God's wrath, why do the frequencies of natural disasters depend on where you live rather than the number of believers? Both the USA (with a high number of Christians) and Japan (with a high number of atheists) often suffer from natural disasters. Secular Britian however rarely does.

3. IF all humans are cursed by Adam's sin, why are some people so much worse off than others? Why are some born healthy and others born sick? At least teaches Karma that the punishment fits the individual.

Again, Job is a sinful person, but Job did not sin (for his "punishment").

Your question will fit better to your argument if you limited it only to one problem, which is either the death before the sin of Adam, or the punishment of sinful act by God.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

This is, in fact, an extremely common interpretation on human behavior. And it is best illustrated by the story of Job. If Job did not sin (did some wrong things in secrecy), why would he suffer? All arguments made by the three wise friends of Job are pretty strong on this reasoning/recognition.

I'm not quite sure why you would use Job as an example. Satan challenged God by saying that all humans are ultimately selfish and only love him because he treats them well. Job was a good man who, no matter what, would not lose his faith in God.

The point of the story is that Job absolutely did not deserve all he terrible things which happened to him but he remained faithful anyway. His friends were completely wrong when they argued that he was suffering because of some sin he had commited. They even got angry at him when he insisted he was still a good man - why would God punish a good man? If anything the story of Job is one against karma.

Your question will fit better to your argument if you limited it only to one problem, which is either the death before the sin of Adam, or the punishment of sinful act by God.

Creationist arguments often fail to distinguish between something that is bad and something that is evil. For example, diseases are bad but murder is evil. If we fail to make this distinction we wrongly assume everything bad which happens to us is a result of God's wrath - hence 'karma'.

 

[juvenissun]

I'm not quite sure why you would use Job as an example. Satan challenged God by saying that all humans are ultimately selfish and only love him because he treats them well. Job was a good man who, no matter what, would not lose his faith in God.

The point of the story is that Job absolutely did not deserve all he terrible things which happened to him but he remained faithful anyway. His friends were completely wrong when they argued that he was suffering because of some sin he had commited. They even got angry at him when he insisted he was still a good man - why would God punish a good man? If anything the story of Job is one against karma.


Creationist arguments often fail to distinguish between something that is bad and something that is evil. For example, diseases are bad but murder is evil. If we fail to make this distinction we wrongly assume everything bad which happens to us is a result of God's wrath - hence 'karma'.

It is easy to say. If your friend attracted a disease, how do you know if she sinned or not for the "bad" thing happened to her?

This is why I use Job as an illustration.

 

[Notedstrangeperson]

It is easy to say. If your friend attracted a disease, how do you know if she sinned or not for the "bad" thing happened to her?

Depends on the situation. If she sleeps around and gets HIV it's her own fault. If her husband sleeps around and gets HIV, and she gets it from him, it's his fault. She's blameless.

 

[Ishraqiyun]

Are humans the only source of karma though? Couldn't beings other than humans have an involvement in the process?

 

[juvenissun]

Depends on the situation. If she sleeps around and gets HIV it's her own fault. If her husband sleeps around and gets HIV, and she gets it from him, it's his fault. She's blameless.

So, like the friends of Job, you don't really know what was going on with your friend. And that is the answer to the question in your OP. We do not know why is there disastrous situation. This is not related to creationism, and it is not necessary Karma to the suffered one.

 

[juvenissun]

Are humans the only source of karma though? Couldn't beings other than humans have an involvement in the process?

A brave dog got killed because it is about the time for it to become a king again.

Sorry, can't resist.