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Creation vs. Evolution: take 139486

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gluadys

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We "know" that the Earth is billions of years old?

Yep.

That's news to me!

Been pulling a Rip van Winkle, eh? You have a lot of catching up to do.

Single celled organisms can reproduce, yes. But, they can't become multi-celled organisms.

Right. Organisms (individuals) don't evolve. Species do. Unicellular species can become multicellular. Molal referred you to this paper:

Becoming Multicellular by Aggregation; The Morphogenesis of the Social Amoebae Dicyostelium discoideum

Maybe you haven't had time to read it yet, but it is a study of how one unicellular species becomes multicellular under certain conditions.

If they could, then evolution with single celled organism's would still be apparent.

It is.

Do you know HOW single celled organisms reproduce? They split, or basically clone themselves.

Correct.

So, with that said, how do you figure single celled organisms are able to evolve into multi-celled organisms?

Do you know that behaviour can be genetically programmed? If cells that cooperate with each other, sharing tasks and specializing their functions are more successful at surviving and reproducing than cells that practice rugged individualism, that co-operative behaviour will be inherited. Over time, it will result in a multicellular organism.

Do you see the flaw now?

No, do you still see one?
 
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ernest_theweedwhackerguy

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Exactly, under CERTAIN conditions. How do you know those certain conditions were there when the "evolution" of the single celled organism supposedly took place?
You don't.


Evidence?



Hahaha!!! You just said that cells don't think, they do!
Why contradict yourself like that in a debate like this!
Just found a hole for you, and you're the one who said it.



No, do you still see one?

Yeah, now I see an even bigger hole! Thanks for shining the light on that.
 
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ernest_theweedwhackerguy

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ROFL no scientist would even dream of using carbon dating to determine the Earth's age.
Here's the funniest thing about it, scientists rely on carbon dating to determine how old bones are, and really, they have no idea either!
Carbon dating isn't accurate at ALL if you're testing something over 400 years. And that's STILL too much credit.
Carbon dating is a joke that scientists use to try to back up whatever it is they're trying to prove.
 
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Technocrat2010

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Here's the funniest thing about it, scientists rely on carbon dating to determine how old bones are, and really, they have no idea either!

False. Carbon dating is but one of over forty radiometric methods scientists use to date fossils, and one of hundreds of methods in general used; not to mention, it's rarely used to date fossils since its upper age limit is about 60,000 years, at which point the error margins are too large to be negligible.

Carbon dating isn't accurate at ALL if you're testing something over 400 years. And that's STILL too much credit.

Demonstratbly false. Carbon dating is verified for samples older than 400 years with independent methods as well.
 
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ernest_theweedwhackerguy

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Hah. Prove it!
Carbon dating is accurate up to the point in time where any area in the world of any civilization had documented and/or recorded their history.

Anything after that is FFAAARR from accurate.
Why, you ask? Because nobody OR no records are there to PROVE carbon dating.

So, as soon as you can actually prove carbon dating is accurate up to 60,000 years, I'm gonna keep on thinking that it's not accurate for anything.
 
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gluadys

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Exactly, under CERTAIN conditions. How do you know those certain conditions were there when the "evolution" of the single celled organism supposedly took place?

Because multi-celled organisms exist. So the conditions for them to exist must have been in place.

Anyway, what makes you think that the conditions that lead to multicellularity in a species of amoeba are the only conditions for all unicellular species which gave rise to multicellular forms?

The importance of a study like this is that it shows there is at least one way to get multicellularity and we have observed it. It doesn't say how many other ways you can get multicellularity that we haven't observed yet. There could be hundreds of scenarios that would produce multicellularity. We don't know how many times unicellular species became multicellular or how many ways they found to do it. But we do know that it is possible.

Evidence?

You have to get a new flu shot every year. Know why? Evolution. And that isn't even unicellular species. That's viruses which are even simpler and not considered living.

But bacteria develop resistance in the same way--by evolution. And you might also google "nylon bug".

Hahaha!!! You just said that cells don't think, they do!
Why contradict yourself like that in a debate like this!

Don't put words in my mouth. I never said anything about them thinking. Why would you imaging those amoebae in the study were thinking?
 
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Molal

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So, as soon as you can actually prove carbon dating is accurate up to 60,000 years, I'm gonna keep on thinking that it's not accurate for anything.

Ok, but it doesn't mean your right.

But, if you are really interested, look at these webpages for C14 dating:

http://www.howstuffworks.com/carbon-14.htm
http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/nuclear/cardat.html

But, you could ignore it and be happy in your cocoon of ignorance and apathy.

I would appreciate it if you would let me know what you decide to do.
 
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Technocrat2010

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Hah. Prove it!

Okay then.

Here is a short list of some of the types of radiometric dating -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiometric_dating#Types_of_radiometric_dating

Molal got the info on the accuracy, so no need to repeat.

Carbon dating is accurate up to the point in time where any area in the world of any civilization had documented and/or recorded their history.

Your turn - prove it.

Anything after that is FFAAARR from accurate.
Why, you ask? Because nobody OR no records are there to PROVE carbon dating.

As I said, there are independent records used to prove carbon dating. Ice core readings, tree rings and other independent, non-radiometric dating techniques are used to confirm the reliability of carbon dating. For more info, see vol. 345 of Nature magazine, specifically the article "Calibration of the 14C timescale over the past 30,000 years using mass spectrometric U-Th ages from Barbados corals."

So, as soon as you can actually prove carbon dating is accurate up to 60,000 years, I'm gonna keep on thinking that it's not accurate for anything.

Please see the above source.
 
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Mallon

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Yep. Yours.
And yet your tax dollars continue to support research like mine, which makes use of evolutionary theory and radiometric dating every day.
You've got your work cut out for you if you want to convince your government and scientists that they don't know what they're doing!
 
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Sqrrl

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Carbon Dating, as Technocrat2010 said, is far from the only method used. Due to the way that certain radioactive isotopes decay over time, it is possible to estimate the age of an object by measuring the amount of decay present in a sample of it. Carbon 14, the isotope measured in radiocarbon dating, is decayed to the point of non-usability after 60,000 years, meaning that it isn't very useful beyond that point. This doesn't, however, mean that it's any less useful up to 60,000 years. When it comes to fossils, scientists usually use a technique such as Uranium-Lead dating. As it takes a very, very long time (in the order of millions of years) for Uranium to decay, making it less accurate, but gives it a much longer range.

Radiometric dating is able to be checked using various external sources such as measuring strata in rock when it comes to fossils, or taking clues from a man-made object's surroundings to guess what era it came from when using carbon dating. Also, Physics provides some very precise mathematical predictions about radiometric dating, which are consistently shown to be accurate.

Out of interest, why do you reject radiometric dating? The evidence in favour of it is very strong, so what amazing revelation do you possess which means that your opinion trumps that of pretty much every single Physicist on earth?
 
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ChristianFAQed

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I believe there is a mass misconception between adaptation and evolution. Adaptation allows species to survive, evolution makes man from a monkey. You get a new flu shot every year because the virus adapts, it is still a virus and it is still the flu.

There are several different species of dog, but there is no evidence that a dog was ever anything but a dog.

Evolution is easy to look at in a broad perspective but when you get into the the details it loses all evidence.

For example, we went from worms that had miniature feet like things and then the next thing on the chart from the Cambrian era is a Lobster with several feet, a body, and eyes.... So how did we get from this worm thing to the lobster thing without any transitional fossils? No evidence that multiple legs evolved, no evidence that a head evolved at all, no evidence that even eyes evolved. they just Poof, were there.

Some might say that we are missing the transitional fossils but even the top evolutionists are at a loss because they find it highly unlikely that we should be missing this many fossils.

I'm all for adaptation and speciation, but once it crosses from one animal to another animal entirely, it loses all validity.
 
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Mallon

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I'm pretty certain the shoe is on the other foot. Scientists aren't the ones with misconceptions about what evolution is and isn't. After all, they're the ones who suffered through grad school and who work with evolutionary models every day.
The general public doesn't understand evolution. For example, your dichotomy between adaptation and evolution is a false one. Adaptation is evolution in that it is descent with modification, as Darwin first described it. This modern YEC attempt to separate adaptation from evolution is little more than a knee-jerk reaction against a word they don't like.

There are several different species of dog, but there is no evidence that a dog was ever anything but a dog.
There is if you go back into the fossil record. Check out the hesperocyonids.

Evolution is easy to look at in a broad perspective but when you get into the the details it loses all evidence.
I disagree. So let's talk details. What details about modern biodiversity does evolution not explain that is better explained by, say, a YEC creation model?

You're being really ambiguous here. What "worm things" and what "lobster things" are you referring to? Are these from the Burgess Shale? Whose study are you referring to that described the evolution of "lobster things" from "worm things"? You said evolution doesn't address the details. Let's address the details.

Some might say that we are missing the transitional fossils but even the top evolutionists are at a loss because they find it highly unlikely that we should be missing this many fossils.
Which "top evolutionist" said this, where, and when?

I'm all for adaptation and speciation, but once it crosses from one animal to another animal entirely, it loses all validity.
What's a "kind of animal"? Remember, please be specific so we can properly address which model fails when it comes to details.
 
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