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Creation Scientists and Transitional Fossils

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Vance

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I find this interesting:

We often here that there are no transitional fossils and that the variety of hominid fossils, and their seeming progression from early ape-like forms to modern human forms, are not a problem since they are simply and demonstratably either apes or humans, not anything in between. The point being that they could not be transitional because they SO CLEARLY fall into one category or the other.

But the problem is that the Creation scientists themselves can't agree on which fossils go in which groups! There are some fossils which Creationists categorize as humans and other Creationists categorize as apes.

Peking Man, for example, is about evenly split between the Creationist scientists. Half think human and half ape. There are also large splits on Java Man and ER 1470. Other fossils have splits, but not as dramatic, with most falling on one side or the other, but a couple opposing.

If these particular fossils have sufficient similarities to EACH category (or "kind", if you will) that even Creationist scientists can't agree which they are, isn't that the very definition of a transitional fossil?
 

Eluzai

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Could you tell us where you got these statistics from:
"Peking Man, for example, is about evenly split between the Creationist scientists"
"are also large splits on Java Man and ER 1470"

Also most scientists (looking through google now and from books) seem to think Java was a hoax. I think this is even more true for scientists who believe in creation maybe because of bias or clarity depending on your point of view. Didn't Peking Man also mystiously disappear... and then reappear maybe you could use examples of transitional fossils that aren't so contraversial?

It's an interesting point you make though.

"Getting information about evolution from Creationists sources is like getting information about Christianity from atheistic sources."
- Have you read Hugh Ross (I think)... I've heard that He uses intelligent design arguments with evolution. Hope that helps :)
 
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Vance

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Micaiah

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I remember seeing a website that showed evolutionsists have the same problem ie. cannot make up their minds about what goes into what category. It demonstrates to me that taking a few bones dug up out of the ground and using them to describe the original animal or person can be highly subjective/speculative.
 
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Vance

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Micaiah said:
I remember seeing a website that showed evolutionsists have the same problem ie. cannot make up their minds about what goes into what category. It demonstrates to me that taking a few bones dug up out of the ground and using them to describe the original animal or person can be highly subjective/speculative.
No, what it demonstrates is that scientists understand that the exact placement of a particular fossil is not always clear, which is the nature of evolutionary development. Things change and it is sometimes difficult to know where a particular fossil fits in the spectrum. There is very often some heated debate with different sides making their case until the entire community comes to a consensus. This process yeilds very good results, but even then all such conclusions have varying degrees of certitude. Some are rock solid, some are still speculative. And science knows the difference and accepts this difference readily.

It is the YEC "scientist" who insists that it MUST be X or Y, since it must be that in order to fit a dogmatic and fixed concept of origins.
 
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gluadys

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Micaiah said:
I remember seeing a website that showed evolutionsists have the same problem ie. cannot make up their minds about what goes into what category. It demonstrates to me that taking a few bones dug up out of the ground and using them to describe the original animal or person can be highly subjective/speculative.

Have you ever studied the work of Baron Georges de Cuvier? He was a very famous French paleontologist, a somewhat older contemporary of Darwin.

What is interesting is that he pioneered the technique of reconstructing a whole organism from fossilized skeletal remains. His grasp of anatomy was such that he could tell from one bone how another must have connected to it and from the scars of muscle connections what the size and placement of the muscle must have been. And from these he would continue with more bone and muscle and nerve and organ placement.

He boasted that by using anatomical principles and an understanding of the form and function of an organism, it was possible to complete a reconstruction from a single tooth.

What is very interesting is that he was a staunch opponent of Darwin's theory. And he opposed evolution precisely because he believed in the precision with which such reconstructions could be made. He believed it took special creation (he was an OEC) to ensure the integrity of form and function which permitted anatomical reconstruction.

In any case, the creationist objection that one can tell little from a few bones, always strikes me strangely given that it was creationists like Cuvier who first developed and used reconstruction techniques.
 
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grmorton

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TwinCrier said:
So it's part of a skull and a femur? Wasn't there a tooth as well?
Look, Java man was an H. erectus. So was the Nariokotome boy found in Africa in strata 1.6 myr old. The Nariokotome boy was a nearly complete skeleton. to deny that Java man clearly shows anatomical differences or isn't a member of our species totally ignores the data found around the rest of the world.
 
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Micaiah

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gluadys said:
Have you ever studied the work of Baron Georges de Cuvier? He was a very famous French paleontologist, a somewhat older contemporary of Darwin.

What is interesting is that he pioneered the technique of reconstructing a whole organism from fossilized skeletal remains. His grasp of anatomy was such that he could tell from one bone how another must have connected to it and from the scars of muscle connections what the size and placement of the muscle must have been. And from these he would continue with more bone and muscle and nerve and organ placement.

He boasted that by using anatomical principles and an understanding of the form and function of an organism, it was possible to complete a reconstruction from a single tooth.

What is very interesting is that he was a staunch opponent of Darwin's theory. And he opposed evolution precisely because he believed in the precision with which such reconstructions could be made. He believed it took special creation (he was an OEC) to ensure the integrity of form and function which permitted anatomical reconstruction.

In any case, the creationist objection that one can tell little from a few bones, always strikes me strangely given that it was creationists like Cuvier who first developed and used reconstruction techniques.
We have discussed the strength of various types of evidence in the past. In my view, reconstructing an animal from a single tooth is highly speculative and subjective.

An interesting test would be to get half a dozen different 'experts' in separate rooms, show them the tooth, and ask them to come up with a description of the animal.
 
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Vance

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Here is the whole article:

Many creationists have claimed that Java Man, discovered by Eugene Dubois in 1893, was "bad science". Gish (1985) says that Dubois found two human skulls at nearby Wadjak at about the same level and had kept them secret; that Dubois later decided Java Man was a giant gibbon; and that the bones do not come from the same individual. Most people would find Gish's meaning of "nearby" surprising: the Wadjak skulls were found 65 miles (104 km) of mountainous countryside away from Java Man. Similarly for "at approximately the same level": the Wadjak skulls were found in cave deposits in the mountains, while Java Man was found in river deposits in a flood plain (Fezer 1993). Nor is it true, as is often claimed, that Dubois kept the existence of the Wadjak skulls secret because knowledge of them would have discredited Java Man. Dubois briefly reported the Wadjak skulls in three separate publications in 1890 and 1892. Despite being corrected on this in a debate in 1982 and in print (Brace 1986), Gish has continued to make this claim, even stating, despite not having apparently read Dubois' reports, that they did not mention the Wadjak skulls (Fezer 1993).


Lubenow does acknowledge the existence of Dubois' papers, but argues that since they were bureaucratic reports not intended for the public or the scientific community, Dubois was still guilty of concealing the existence of the Wadjak skulls. This is also incorrect; the journals in which Dubois published, although obscure, were distributed in Europe and America, and are part of the scientific literature. They are available in major libraries and have often been referred to by later researchers (Brace, 1996:pers.comm.).

Based on his own theories about how brains had evolved and wishful thinking, Dubois did claim that Java Man was "a gigantic genus allied to the gibbons", but this was not, as creationists imply, a retraction of his earlier claims that it was an intermediate between apes and humans. Dubois also pointed out that it was bipedal and that its brain size was "very much too large for an anthropoid ape", and he never stopped believing that he had found an ancestor of modern man (Theunissen 1989; Gould 1993; Lubenow 1992). (The creationist organization Answers in Genesis has now abandoned the claim that Dubois dismissed Java Man as a gibbon, and now lists it in their Arguments we think creationists should NOT use web page.)

Creationists are right about one thing. Most modern scientists agree that the femur is more recent than the skullcap, belonging to a modern human. Some of the teeth found nearby are now thought to be from an orang-utan, rather than Homo erectus.

It is instructive to listen to Gish (1993) expounding on the apelike qualities of the skullcap:
"Now we see that the skullcap is very apelike; notice that it has no forehead, it's very flat, very typical of the ape. Notice the massive eyebrow ridges, very typical of the ape".​

Despite this, the skullcap definitely does not belong to any ape, and especially not to a gibbon. It is far too large (940 cc, compared to 97 cc for a gibbon), and it is similar to many other Homo erectus fossils that have been found. One of these is Sangiran 17, also found on Java. This skull, which is never mentioned by creationists, is an almost complete cranium and is clearly human, albeit primitive. Others are the Turkana Boy and ER 3733 fossils, both of which creationists recognize as human.

If one is trying to pigeonhole Java Man as either an ape or a human, calling it a human is easily the best choice, but very few creationists seem to have done so until Lubenow in 1992. However he attempts to disqualify Java Man as a primitive human by using faunal evidence to show that it is the same age as the Wadjak skulls. Lubenow gives the following quote from Hooijer (1951):
"Tapirus indicus, supposedly extinct in Java since the Middle Pleistocene, proved to be represented in the Dubois collection from the Wadjak site, central Java, which is late - if not post - Pleistocene in age."​
Lubenow is saying that since this species of tapir was found in both the Trinil [the site where Java Man was found] and Wadjak faunas, these fossils may be of the same age. This conclusion is reinforced by three other quotes from Hooijer, all of which describe difficulties in using faunal methods to date Javan fossils. Lubenow's argument fails for a number of reasons.


Even if faunal methods were completely invalid, it would not constitute evidence that Wadjak Man and Java Man were the same age. The most that could be claimed was that the ages of both were unknown. However Hooijer never said that the faunal methods were useless, or that the Wadjak and Trinil faunas were the same.

By far the simplest resolution of the tapir discrepancy is, as Hooijer stated, that Tapirus indicus survived longer than previously thought on Java (Lubenow does admit this possibility). This is consistent with the rest of the evidence. The Wadjak fauna is modern, and hence Wadjak Man is considered to be less than 50,000 years old, and more probably about 10,000 years old. The Trinil fauna contains many more extinct species, and is hence older.

Basically, Lubenow argues that Wadjak Man and Java Man are the same age because a single species of tapir is in both faunas, ignoring that there are many other species not shared between the faunas, and that the extinct species are exclusively in the Trinil fauna.

Lubenow claims that Dubois concealed the Wadjak fossils because the discrepancy of the tapir would have contradicted his claim that Java Man was far older than Wadjak. This seems implausible because Dubois was one of the earliest collectors in Java, and detailed information on the Javan faunas was not compiled until decades later (Hooijer 1951).

Incidentally, the tapir was probably not singled out for mention by Hooijer because it is an anomaly, as Lubenow seems to suspect. It was probably of interest because this species of tapir is still living in South East Asia, and is not, as Lubenow stated, extinct. (Hooijer only stated that it was extinct in Java, not elsewhere.)

Parker (Morris and Parker 1982) expresses puzzlement that Johanson (1981) considers Java Man to be a valid fossil. It is of course a valid fossil because the skullcap had to belong to something, but Parker merely dismisses it as "bad science". (He seems to be of the opinion that it was an ape, but does not say so explicitly.)

As mentioned above Lubenow, publishing in 1992, was one of the first major creationists to conclude that the Java Man skullcap did not belong to an ape. Bill Mehlert came to similar conclusion in a paper published in a creationist journal in 1994:
The finding of ER 3733 and WT 15000 therefore appears to strongly reinforce the validity of Java and Peking Man. The clear similarities shared by all four (where skeletal and cranial material available), render untenable any claims that the two Asian specimens are nothing more than exceptionally large apes. (Mehlert 1994)​
Following this many of the better-informed creationists decided that the skullcap which had hitherto belonged to an ape was in fact human, such that Carl Wieland, the CEO of Answers in Genesis was able to write in 1998 (in a review of Richard Milton's book Shattering the myths of Darwinism) that
[Milton's] statement that the Java Man remains are now thought to be simply those of an extinct, giant gibbon-like creature is simply false. He appears to have been misled by the myth (commenced by evolutionists, and perpetuated in both creationist and evolutionist works since) that Eugene Dubois, the discoverer of Java Man, recanted and called his discovery a 'giant gibbon'. Knowledgable creationists do not make this sort of claim anymore. (Wieland 1998)​
"Knowledgable creationists" may not claim that Java Man is an ape any more, but there still seem to be quite a few non-knowledgable creationists making the claim, such as Duane Gish (1995). Old lies die hard, however. Even as recently as 1995 (only three years previously), an article in Creation, the popular magazine of Weiland's organization Answers in Genesis, was still making the claim:
'Java man' has been renamed so as to now belong to the category of Homo erectus. However, readers should be aware that though there are indeed reasonable specimens which have been named Homo erectus (of disputed status in this whole question, but that's another matter) there is no reason to believe that 'Java man' necessarily even belonged to this category, nor had any objective existence at all. The skull-cap may have belonged to a large extinct ape, and the leg bone to an ordinary human.

When Mehlert stated that ER 3733 and WT 15000 had rendered untenable the claim that Java Man skullcap was just a large ape, he was only about 60 years behind the times. Legitimate scientists had come to the same conclusion in the 1930's, when other fossils similar to but more complete than the original Java Man were discovered, showing conclusively that it did not belong to a giant ape. It seems to have taken the discovery of the Turkana Boy fossil WT 15000 in 1985 to make this obvious even to creationists.
 
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ugabaru

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gluadys said:
In any case, the creationist objection that one can tell little from a few bones, always strikes me strangely given that it was creationists like Cuvier who first developed and used reconstruction techniques.

I'm sorry but the argument that reconstuction techniques were pioneered by someone who was a creationist doesn't make them any less speculative. If you are a female, does that mean you agree with all things said by other females?
 
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ugabaru

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Micaiah said:
An interesting test would be to get half a dozen different 'experts' in separate rooms, show them the tooth, and ask them to come up with a description of the animal.

While it would be fun to see the half dozen different outcomes, something akin to this has already happened. In 1922 the "missing link" Nebraska Man was reconstructed from a single tooth. We don't see Nebraska Man in our textbooks anymore, do we?
 
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Vance

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ugabaru said:
While it would be fun to see the half dozen different outcomes, something akin to this has already happened. In 1922 the "missing link" Nebraska Man was reconstructed from a single tooth. We don't see Nebraska Man in our textbooks anymore, do we?
Which shows that the science of evolutionary biology and paleantology knows how to weed out the bad exemplars and hold on to only that which is good.

What would be even more constructive is for YEC's to actually read up on what hominid fossils have been found. They are finding new stuff every year. Check out here for the latest and a complete summary of what we have found so far:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/
 
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ugabaru

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Vance said:
What would be even more constructive is for YEC's to actually read up on what hominid fossils have been found. They are finding new stuff every year. Check out here for the latest and a complete summary of what we have found so far:

Hmmm... Not sure I like being classed as a YEC...
I do read (or listen) about new findings. It's all fascinating stuff. Here's a link you might enjoy for a story on a new find, Homo floresiensis.

www dot radio dot cbc.ca/programs/quirks/archives/04-05/oct30.html
Sorry, I'm a newbie, and not allowed to use url tags yet.

Skip down the page to "New Human Species". I don't reckon they're part of MY family tree, but have a listen, see what you think.
 
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Vance

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ugabaru said:
Hmmm... Not sure I like being classed as a YEC...
I do read (or listen) about new findings. It's all fascinating stuff. Here's a link you might enjoy for a story on a new find, Homo floresiensis.

www dot radio dot cbc.ca/programs/quirks/archives/04-05/oct30.html
Sorry, I'm a newbie, and not allowed to use url tags yet.

Skip down the page to "New Human Species". I don't reckon they're part of MY family tree, but have a listen, see what you think.
Sorry, I was not really addressing you as a YEC, but just venting a general frustration about their insistence on "refuting" what they don't understand. :)
 
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