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Creation of God

Demian

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One thing that has bothered me about the existence of a God is how one would have came about.

Often I hear the phrase "The universe exist therefore it must have been created". Okay, fair enough, but if God exist, what created him? I hear the arguments that the universe can't be infinite and can't exist forever, but why does this not hold true for a God? And IF a God exist and has existed for all time, why did he choose that time to create existence?
 

tapero

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One thing that has bothered me about the existence of a God is how one would have came about.

Often I hear the phrase "The universe exist therefore it must have been created". Okay, fair enough, but if God exist, what created him? I hear the arguments that the universe can't be infinite and can't exist forever, but why does this not hold true for a God? And IF a God exist and has existed for all time, why did he choose that time to create existence?

Hi, God doesn't tell us why he chose that time to create what we see written of in Genesis.

And yes, God always existed; no one created God, God is. And always has been.

you wrote you heard said the universe can't exist forever and it has an ending;

I'm fairly certain that all there is is infinite...as to the universe.. as how could it just end? as that ending would then be a beginning of something else.

God doesn't say about the universe ending, tho does say they will be a new heaven and a new earth. This is written of towards the end of revelation.

take care,
tapero
 
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One thing that has bothered me about the existence of a God is how one would have came about.

Often I hear the phrase "The universe exist therefore it must have been created". Okay, fair enough, but if God exist, what created him? I hear the arguments that the universe can't be infinite and can't exist forever, but why does this not hold true for a God? And IF a God exist and has existed for all time, why did he choose that time to create existence?
[FONT=&quot]Something must exist forever for the universe to exist. Because if there was nothing then nothing cannot cause or create anything. So if we started with nothing then nothing would ever exist.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
[/FONT]
 
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HypnoToad

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Often I hear the phrase "The universe exist therefore it must have been created". Okay, fair enough, but if God exist, what created him?
That's an incorrect wording of the argument. It should say, "The universe had a beginning; therefore, it must have been created." That is why it doesn't apply to God, as He did not have a beginning.

I hear the arguments that the universe can't be infinite and can't exist forever, but why does this not hold true for a God?
Because God is not made up of physical matter like the universe is. There's no basis for arguing the physical laws should also apply to the non-physical.

And IF a God exist and has existed for all time, why did he choose that time to create existence?
Well, God created time as well. So He really didn't pick "a time" to create, as time didn't exist yet.
 
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WarEagle

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One thing that has bothered me about the existence of a God is how one would have came about.

Often I hear the phrase "The universe exist therefore it must have been created". Okay, fair enough, but if God exist, what created him? I hear the arguments that the universe can't be infinite and can't exist forever, but why does this not hold true for a God?

The reason God doesn't have (nor need) a creator is that God is a spirit. He is not physical or made of matter.

We know that things that are made of matter are subject to the 2nd law of thermodynamics. That is, that all material things are losing energy and decaying until they eventually die or are destroyed

God is not material and, thus, not subject to this law. Because of this, we don't speak of God in terms of birth or death or creation.

Because God isn't subject to the 2nd law of thermodynamics and cannot die or decay, that tells us that there was not a point in time that God when God was created, but has just always been.
 
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Demian

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=you wrote you heard said the universe can't exist forever and it has an ending;

I'm fairly certain that all there is is infinite...as to the universe.. as how could it just end? as that ending would then be a beginning of something else.

God doesn't say about the universe ending, tho does say they will be a new heaven and a new earth. This is written of towards the end of revelation.

take care,
tapero

I suppose what I SHOULD have said is, I have heard Christians say that the universe had to have a beginning and therefore a creator.


[FONT=&quot]Something must exist forever for the universe to exist. Because if there was nothing then nothing cannot cause or create anything. So if we started with nothing then nothing would ever exist.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days
[/FONT]

Doesn't answer my question. You say that something must exist forever for the universe to exist. But why and why a God is my question. What is the logic behind one thing existing forever while another could not? Why does the universe have to have a beginning but not a God?


That's an incorrect wording of the argument. It should say, "The universe had a beginning; therefore, it must have been created." That is why it doesn't apply to God, as He did not have a beginning.

Um..why?

Because God is not made up of physical matter like the universe is. There's no basis for arguing the physical laws should also apply to the non-physical.

Once again, does not answer my question. Why not? Why does by the Christian standard, the universe have to have a beginning but not God. I mean, the universe is really complex I understand but for a God to have made it, he must be infinetly more complex which is even more improbable he exist without a creator. I am not trying to arguing, I just don't get your answer.


Well, God created time as well. So He really didn't pick "a time" to create, as time didn't exist yet.

I am more of the belief that time is relevent so please forgive me as I believe in infinity. But you believe in a God who has existed forever, so for him to exist forever then to him there was a passage of time and therefore he chose a specific point to create something.

The reason God doesn't have (nor need) a creator is that God is a spirit. He is not physical or made of matter.

Why? Spirit by your definition can be created as God created angels and the like. Sorry, you have seen my threads before War Eagle, you know I can be very specific.

We know that things that are made of matter are subject to the 2nd law of thermodynamics. That is, that all material things are losing energy and decaying until they eventually die or are destroyed

Gross oversimplification but okay, I get you.

God is not material and, thus, not subject to this law. Because of this, we don't speak of God in terms of birth or death or creation.

Yes but neither are angels and they where created and are spirit. But once again why is he infinite but not the universe?

Because God isn't subject to the 2nd law of thermodynamics and cannot die or decay, that tells us that there was not a point in time that God when God was created, but has just always been.

Once again, angels where created so why?
 
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ebia

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But you believe in a God who has existed forever, so for him to exist forever then to him there was a passage of time and therefore he chose a specific point to create something.
Time is actually part of creation (ask the physicists). Our language makes it hard, if not impossible, to talk without pretending that time applies to God but time, like space, is part of creation itself and doesn't exist outside of it.
 
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Doesn't answer my question. You say that something must exist forever for the universe to exist. But why and why a God is my question. What is the logic behind one thing existing forever while another could not? Why does the universe have to have a beginning but not a God?

Even scientists say the universe had a beginning they say it was once singularity. They make the claim that the singularity existed forever. But if this where true then the singularity would still exist and would continue to exist forever as a singularity, for if the singularity was stable as a singularity forever and there was no other outside influences then it would remain stable as a singularity forever. Therefore either the singularity did not exist forever or it existed for a time then another external force acted upon it to cause it to become unstable. If something other than the singularity existed then there is something other than the physical universe that exists and triggered the singularity to become the universe.

Also the universe is a physical entity but we are not just dead matter. We are alive we are thinking and emotional beings we are not just an unthinking conglomeration of atoms. This is basic thing that most people since. The difference between the physical world of forces and the emotional world of self. The emotional us is not a result of physical forces but a result of a greater emotional Being.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days
 
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WarEagle

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Why? Spirit by your definition can be created as God created angels and the like.

That's a good point. I don't claim to understand why or how God does the things He does, I just know what the Bible says.

Your question was about God and how we know that God wasn't created, not about angels.

You say that you're very specific (ie. manipulative), but by changing the subject, you're now being very unspecific.

Again, God is spirit, which means that He is not a part of the same physical/material class that has a beginning and end. However, I don't see how that means that God, in His omnipotence and sovereignty cannot create spiritual beings.

Gross oversimplification

[staff edit]

But once again why is he infinite but not the universe?

I answered this one already.

Once again, angels where created so why?

Answered already.
 
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Digit

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One thing that has bothered me about the existence of a God is how one would have came about.

Often I hear the phrase "The universe exist therefore it must have been created". Okay, fair enough, but if God exist, what created him? I hear the arguments that the universe can't be infinite and can't exist forever, but why does this not hold true for a God? And IF a God exist and has existed for all time, why did he choose that time to create existence?
Hey Demian,

You are asking questions that, at the very best, we can only postulate what really occured and what the actual reasons for God doing things are.

If you read the Bible, you will see that it's writers say that God's thoughts are higher than our own, and His reasons often beyond our understanding. I think this resulted in the "God works in mysterious ways." phrase which sounds an awful lot like a cop out, but when such things are beyond us, I don't think anyone can say with certainty what really happened and why things are like they are.

Cheers,
Digit
 
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GasTank

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One thing that has bothered me about the existence of a God is how one would have came about.

Often I hear the phrase "The universe exist therefore it must have been created". Okay, fair enough, but if God exist, what created him? I hear the arguments that the universe can't be infinite and can't exist forever, but why does this not hold true for a God? And IF a God exist and has existed for all time, why did he choose that time to create existence?
Actually God has not existed for all time, because He is not in time. Rather He always has been. See our minds are all wrapped up around time, space and matter. These three things God created. He is outside of them. What is really amazing is that He sent His Son to come into time, space and matter.
 
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hlaltimus

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One thing that has bothered me about the existence of a God is how one would have came about.

Often I hear the phrase "The universe exist therefore it must have been created". Okay, fair enough, but if God exist, what created him? I hear the arguments that the universe can't be infinite and can't exist forever, but why does this not hold true for a God? And IF a God exist and has existed for all time, why did he choose that time to create existence?

According to personal theory and faith in that theory, I understand all existence aggregate to be confined to one of three heavens, the first, the second and third. The third is so labeled "third" only due to the fact that it stands above or in excess our own universe, (the second,) in both quality and quantity, but in reality the third heavens were original and eternally uncreated while the second and first were both subsequent to the third and finitely created. This "theory" would make the third heavens, really, the first heavens in point of seniority relative to the second and the third. I deem our entire universe to comprise only the second heavens while the first is another one under this one, and was intended to be the home of the angels by the creation of God. It originally stood inferior to this one in point of divine priority, the second heavens, because angels were intended to be our servants and we their lords, an issue of great disappointment for Lucifer, his envious angels, and fuel for that misguided and ill fated rebellion. If this view or conjecture were true, it would explain the seeming discrepancy between an infinite and eternal Creator, to whom our reconciling calculations of being are illogical, non-sensical and outright impossible. Well, how could it be otherwise for finite reasoning creatures who, like the world they were made in and for, are wholly limited in their mental resources by their very creation?

On argument of sheer principle alone, it would be possible to measure the atlantic ocean with the use of a tea cup, sufficient energy and time, but why attempt what is still, (practically speaking,) impossible? The tools of resource are legitimate tools, yes, but they're too small for the proposed task. Even if God were only as big as our universe is, it would still be, practically speaking, impossible to comprehend Him...How much more so if He is properly infinite as the infinite realm is in which He abides?

To cast away the traditional, Biblical doctrine of the absolute eternalness of God as being absurd to all common logic is something akin to tossing a tea cup into the ocean while in a heat of frustration and disillusionment out of attempting to comprehend that ocean's volume with the use of that insufficient tool.

You'll never succeed in understanding the feasibility of the infiniteness of the third heavens and it's inifinte Inhabitant, God the Creator, for at least two reasons:
1- Your still an inhabitant of a realm which is finite by nature and therefore you must accept of a finite existence in compatibility with the realm in which and for which you were made.
2- Even if you do someday ascend unto the third heavens, (and I hope that you do,) you will then be a perfect human being, but you'll be a perfect finite human being and will still find an allowed discrepancy between your comprehension of God and the reality of His infinite Being. You will gaze upon that unspeakably glorius Being in wonder, adoration and praise, but will feel no uneasiness over the "tea cup" of the worship that you have just rendered Him....It was meant to be that way and can never be otherwise.
 
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SpiritualAntiseptic

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One thing that has bothered me about the existence of a God is how one would have came about.

Often I hear the phrase "The universe exist therefore it must have been created". Okay, fair enough, but if God exist, what created him? I hear the arguments that the universe can't be infinite and can't exist forever, but why does this not hold true for a God? And IF a God exist and has existed for all time, why did he choose that time to create existence?

God does not exist.
God makes things exist.

People have a difficult time seeing outside our world. Primative religions have a tendency to create gods- things within the created world that have various powers. The problem is- if they came from creation, where did creation come from?

Simply put- creation comes from the will of God. God is outside of creation- outside of existence. God isn't a big man with a white beard sitting on a cloud. If God consisted of matter or had a form, He'd be a created thing. Another way to think of it- God isn't made up of anything. Things, like a brick, which are made up of things exist and are created. God also doesn't have any shape or 'form'.
 
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SonicBOOM

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One thing that has bothered me about the existence of a God is how one would have came about.

Often I hear the phrase "The universe exist therefore it must have been created". Okay, fair enough, but if God exist, what created him? I hear the arguments that the universe can't be infinite and can't exist forever, but why does this not hold true for a God? And IF a God exist and has existed for all time, why did he choose that time to create existence?


this quistion is indeed hard, but consider the idea that God is trancedent,in other words he is above and beyond us in everyway. The concept of the trinity is that you have 3 "persons" in one being. Thats above our minds. So this idea that God didn't need to be created could be just another thing about him that is above our minds. Or maybe God created himself.... It all has to do with the origin of the origin. Any therey out there [including evultion] ignores the fact that at the very begining something had to come from nothing. It's a hard concept to grasp.... but maybe we aren't meant to :)
 
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salida

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God wasn't created or invented. In fact we are the ones who were created. God is infinite and has no beginning or ending. When one studies the Bible, it could only be written by a God because of its characteristics. There are hundreds of detailed prophesies in it that have come true and more to be fulfilled. Plus, no one is good enough to enter heaven without Christ- http://www.livingwaters.com/good/

Biblical Evidence – This is a very small amount of information
out of large amounts of information out there.

Internal Evidences-Prophesies that are confirmed with Bible;

mentioning only a few – but there are hundreds.

Life of Christ
The Tribe of Judah, Gen. 49:10, Luke 3:23-28
(Genesis was written 4004 BC to 1689 BC)
(Luke’s time period is 60-70 AD)

Royal Line of David, Jer 23:5, Matt 1:1
(Jeremiah 760 to 698 BC)/(Matthew 60-70 AD)

Born of a Virgin, Isaiah 7:14/Matt 1:18-23
(Isaiah 760 to 698 BC)/(60-70 AD)

Rise of Empires
In the book of Daniel, Chapter 2 – four kingdoms are described in the interpretation
of the dream of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon: Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greek – Daniel 8:21, 10:20/ and a fourth great kingdom to follow which was part iron and clay – which is the
Roman Empire – during this empire, Christ came and the church was established – Daniel 2:44.

Historical Accuracy

The Bible is loaded with historical statements concerning events of hundreds of years ago, yet
none of them has been proven to be incorrect.
(Bible compared to other ancient documents)
New Testament – starts at 25 years – between the original and surviving copies
Homer- starts at 500 years/Demosthenes – at 1400 years/Plato – at 1200 years/
Caesar – at 1000 years

Number of Manuscript Copies

New Testament – 5,686/Homer – 643/Demosthenes – 200/Plato – 7/Caesar – 10

Consistency – Written by 40 men over a period of time exceeding 1400 years, and has no
Internal inconsistencies.



Claim of Inspiration- It claims to be spoken by God, 2 Tim 3:16-17). No other religious book makes such claims.


External Evidences

(Prophesies Outside the Bible)
These cities were prophesied to be destroyed and never to be built again- and they haven’t.
Niveveh – Nahum 1:10, 3:7, 15, Zephaniah 2:13-14
Babylon – Isaiah 13:1-22
Tyre -Ezekiel 26:1-28

Bible before Science

He hangs the earth on nothing – Job 26:7
(Job was written at least 1000 years ago – some scholars think it could have been even 3000
years ago)
Note: Man only knew the above for 350 years.
Earth is a sphere – Isaiah 40:22/Air has weight – Job 28:25/
Gravity – Job 26:7, Job 38: 31-33/Winds blow in cyclones, Eccl 1:6

Documents that Prove Bible is True

Gilgamesh Epic, The Sumerian King List, Mari Tablets, Babylonian Chronicles

Archealogical Evidence (Still adding to this list today- it hasn’t stopped)
Excavations of Ur, Location of Zoar, Ziggurats and the foundation of Tower of Babel









 
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Faith In God

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Often I hear the phrase "The universe exist therefore it must have been created". Okay, fair enough, but if God exist, what created him?
Wrong. :p

I hear the arguments that the universe can't be infinite and can't exist forever,
Yes, but that argument is not necessarily a Christian argument: it is a scientific one.

but why does this not hold true for a God? And IF a God exist and has existed for all time, why did he choose that time to create existence?
Time is the fourth dimension.
1st dimension: length
2nd dimension: width
3rd dimension: depth
4th dimension: time

To say that God exists "before time" is like this:
look at a sheet of paper.
Where does it "begin"?
...can't do it, can you?

It simply is what it is. There really isn't a "beginning" of measurement, it simply is what it is.
Time, as far as we understand it, is a measurement of existance, just like width, length, or height.
Everything that exists exists in these four dimensions. They are "confined" to these four dimensions.

But there are more than four dimensions! I believe it was theorized that there may be as many as 12 dimensions, and that electrons exist in the 8th! I can't wrap my mind around that...
but in any event, recall that sheet of paper.

That sheet of paper "exists" in its two dimensions, while you exist in four. That sheet of paper (assuming it's perfectly two-dimensional, just to illustrate) is confined to the dimension it is in: dimension number 2. We are confined the same way in our dimension!

If there is a supernatural God, He would not exist in a low dimension like this (or lower): if He did, He would not be able to keep up with the higher ones, because they are less "confined" than He.

God is not confined to time, just like we are not confined to three dimensions: we can move and live.
You asked why God is exempt from the idea that "nothing existed forever"?

Because for that to be true, the exempt party would have to be free of the confine of the fourth dimension. We who live in the physical universe cannot be free of that confine. God must be.
:)

And if He's that awesome...He's worth serving. And He's given us that choice. It's up to you.
 
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