Creation-based Science Graduate Programs Anyone?

"does possibility mean prababibility?..By definition you can't believe in God because that would not make you an atheist."

no, possibility means possibility. I personally do not believe in a god, but I do accept that a god is possible.

Can you say the same thing?
Can you say you personally believe in a god, but you do accept that "no god" is possible?

"wrong claims here: You cannot believe in science and what evolution claims if the polystyrate fossils (or other evidence ) show that the geologic column is incorrect"

Again, you missed the point.

Polystrate fossils do NOT prove evolution or geology wrong. It is FALSE to think that they do, and geology 101 would tell you that.

So, the creationist is asking the geologist to believe in "god and false information" or "no god and valid information."

The geologist would most likely choose door number 2 if there were only 2 choices.


It would be like saying that the theory of a spherical earth must not be true because no one has ever fallen off the bottom of the earth. I bet you would laugh at that, yet we hear funnier things from creationists everyday.

napajohn said:

does possibility mean prababibility?..By definition you can't believe in God because that would not make you an atheist.


no slinging ..just stating the limitations of not allowing God in the equation..by the way you described the brunt of the human population there...creationists Christians do not have the monopoly on this attitude


wrong claims here: You cannot believe in science and what evolution claims if the polystyrate fossils (or other evidence ) show that the geologic column is incorrect...Belief in God has no real basis here.

better vignette:
Evolutionist: The fossil record proves x amphibian came from Y fish
Person: show me linearly the fossils of y fish and see how it developed to x amphibian
E: doesn't exist in fossil record linearly
P: you have gaps?
E: depends on what you call gaps..ay fish kinda looks like the precursor to by fish who kinda looks like the precusrsor to x amphibian
P: ok then show me the linear fossil record showing ay fish becoming by fish
E: that doesn't necessarily exist either
P: you have gaps?
E: depends on what you see as gaps!

see how it works!

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no, possibility means possibility. I personally do not believe in a god, but I do accept that a god is possible.

Can you say the same thing?
Can you say you personally believe in a god, but you do accept that "no god" is possible?

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I could say that but I choose not to...is your wife/husband the best partner for you?..once you've made a commitment its hard to reverse it

Polystrate fossils do NOT prove evolution or geology wrong. It is FALSE to think that they do, and geology 101 would tell you that.

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geology 101 doesn't even cover polystrate fossils so how does it prove Evolution?

So, the creationist is asking the geologist to believe in "god and false information" or "no god and valid information."
The geologist would most likely choose door number 2 if there were only 2 choices.
It would be like saying that the theory of a spherical earth must not be true because no one has ever fallen off the bottom of the earth. I bet you would laugh at that, yet we hear funnier things from creationists everyday.

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what you hear is not my concern..i don't believe in a flat earth...nor does icr or many creationists i know...move on from this topic i know you are trying to associate creationism with flat earth and evolution with true science.doesn't work here

move on from this topic i know you are trying to associate creationism with flat earth and evolution with true science.

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It is a valid analogy because Flat Earth is another falsified theory - just like YEC. Unfortunately you are too blinded by your own fallible interpretation of Scripture to even look at the evidence. The Theory of Evolution is science by every meaningful definition of the word - the fact that you and other fringe groups disagree for religious reasons has no bearing on the positive contributions scientists using the ToE make everyday.

"I could say that but I choose not to...is your wife/husband the best partner for you?..once you've made a commitment its hard to reverse it "

Hmm, how interesting, so in reality "you have automatically ruled out All possibilities then that is when you have gone from being an unbiased scientist to one who has limited the possibilities" (your words, not mine )

I have accepted that even though I believe there is no god, there is a possibility that there is one But you choose to not say that there is a possibility that there is no god.

It appears you are one one who is limiting the possibilities. Hmmm.


"geology 101 doesn't even cover polystrate fossils so how does it prove Evolution?"

"geology 101" is a non literal term for basic geology. And you seem to have missed what I said, Polystrat fossils do not prove evolution, but they do not disprove it either. The idea that they disprove evolution is a false statement yet you hear it from creationists all the time.


"what you hear is not my concern..i don't believe in a flat earth...nor does icr or many creationists i know..."

Wow, you missed the point for a third time, are you seriously reading my posts, or just not understanding them right?

You seem to have something against the flat earth. Please go back and read the analogies, as you dont seem to be getting the point of them. So basically the point is, most scientists would rather believe in unfalsified information than falsified information. You start linking the falsified information to god, and they dont want any part of god. (still expects this not to be understood).

napajohn said:

[snip]

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Mr_Coffee said:

I kind of wish people read things when joining new forums before typing and then pressing the post button.

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Yep, my thoughts exactly. I'm sure the thread starter would agree with you as well.

Your theory beliefs are just that--beliefs in a theory. I know you're smart enough to know the definition of a theory, however an outsider may think you don't by the sounds of your claims. That's why in every secular text book there's a theory disclosure statement(s) declaring such. If evolution was really so bone afide and tested, proven beyond a reasonable doubt to the general populace, do you think that evolutionists wouldn't be beating down the publishing doors to withdraw those little disclaimers? Tell me, how long will it take until you can muster up the evidence to call a theory fact? It's been ongoing for centuries now, how many more do you need with the present technology that is available? No matter how many assumptions and theories you patch together, no number of assumptions and theories equal bone afide fact.

As for the comments I read frequently about "where is the creationists when more facts are required?" and other such statements, creationists don't require the amount of paperwork and bureaucracy that evolutionists have, because our theory is simple and less uninhibited by pride and humanistic intentions. We openly admit the areas that are unanswered and need more input to clarify. Most importantly, for most creationist, we don't attempt mandate our theory as fact in clear contradiction to the apparent short-comings. Remember, it's quality, not quantity that counts for so much of life's truths.

I don't disrespect you in any manner for believing in what ever type of god you wish to serve, nameless or unacknowledged. But I can't help to associate the evolutionist's theory with that of a young child's lie. The lie continues to expand, eventually requiring so many lies to support the prior, it will be uncovered and exposed to all that were misled and knew better.

For every self-proclaimed fact that evolutionists theory-up, a creationist can counter with a scenario that is just as possible based on scientific data, and then some sources that you may or may not comprehend. I have accepted that some evolutionists will not have a change of perspective until all other avenues are exhausted. For some, it finally comes around on their death beds as they reckon with fears that no amount of subversion can bury.

If you haven't noticed, the guppies and semi-unlimited short duration lab observations that evolutionists love to write about and wave around don't mean squat to those that require more concrete proof of events. Until that time exists, and trust me, none of the current studies are concrete and conclusive, many of us remain satisfied in the wisdom inherited through Jesus Christ from the Father.

Upward Bound said:

Your theory beliefs are just that--beliefs in a theory. I know you're smart enough to know the definition of a theory, however an outsider may think you don't by the sounds of your claims

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He knows the definition do you? A scientific theory is not the same as the lay use of the word THEORY.

Upward Bound said:

That's why in every secular text book there's a theory disclosure statement(s) declaring such

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Really a disclaimer? I have a degree in Biology a Minor in Chem and have NEVER seen one of these disclaimers and I own THOUSANDS of dollars worth of text books!

Upward Bound said:

If evolution was really so bone afide and tested, proven beyond a reasonable doubt to the general populace, do you think that evolutionists wouldn't be beating down the publishing doors to withdraw those little disclaimers?

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This is funny, considered a career in stand up??

Upward Bound said:

Tell me, how long will it take until you can muster up the evidence to call a theory fact?

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I guess you did not know that something can be both theory AND fact! Interesting, huh?

Upward Bound said:

creationists don't require the amount of paperwork and bureaucracy that evolutionists have, because our theory is simple and less uninhibited by pride and humanistic intentions. We openly admit the areas that are unanswered and need more input to clarify. Most importantly, for most creationist, we don't attempt mandate our theory as fact in clear contradiction to the apparent short-comings. Remember, it's quality, not quantity that counts for so much of life's truths.

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Oh my goodness-KABOOOM...there goes another Irony meter!!

Upward Bound said:

But I can't help to associate the evolutionist's theory with that of a young child's lie.

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Really? What is the theory of evolution? Do you know?

Upward Bound said:

For every self-proclaimed fact that evolutionists theory-up, a creationist can counter with a scenario that is just as possible based on scientific data, and then some sources that you may or may not comprehend. I have accepted that some evolutionists will not have a change of perspective until all other avenues are exhausted. For some, it finally comes around on their death beds as they reckon with fears that no amount of subversion can bury.

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This has to be a joke?? Did you know CreationISM was is a scientific theory and that is was falsified 140 years ago????? The facts are not "self proclaimed" they are based on data research and extensive study.

Upward Bound said:

If you haven't noticed, the guppies and semi-unlimited short duration lab observations that evolutionists love to write about and wave around don't mean squat to those that require more concrete proof of events. Until that time exists, and trust me, none of the current studies are concrete and conclusive, many of us remain satisfied in the wisdom inherited through Jesus Christ from the Father.

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And what Wisdom is that? So Jeus spoke of CreationISM and a young Earth?? Where in the Bible does he say that?

Not sure if anyone has ever told you this but evolution =/= atheism!!

Upward Bound said:

I don't disrespect you in any manner for believing in what ever type of god you wish to serve, nameless or unacknowledged.

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Uh ohhh a hubris meter just exploded!! Nameless and unacknowledged by whom, you? Bet you are happy you found, The True Religion, huh?

You do realize that both germ theory and cell theory are "just theories" right?
Have you ever taken antibiotics? Why or why not?

My advice would be, to take your own advice, and read the posts around here, or ask questions, as so far you aren't doing very well with making statements.

Upward Bound said:

Your theory beliefs are just that--beliefs in a theory.

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ALso people do not "believe in" evolution it is accepted based on evidence. What is your evidence against evolution? List it for me, maybe you can help us??

Upward Bound said:

creationists don't require the amount of paperwork and bureaucracy that evolutionists have, because our theory is simple and less uninhibited by pride and humanistic intentions.

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This classic! Seriously.... thinking about going to Kinkos in the morning and have it blown up and framed!

For every self-proclaimed fact that evolutionists theory-up, a creationist can counter with a scenario that is just as possible based on scientific data

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That's simply not true. Creationists ignore scientific data. That is the only reason why creationism still exists. Just look around the forum and you'll see why young earth creationism + worldwide flood isn't taught in geology classes as valid. There's a reason for that. Creationists don't use all available data and their model is demonstrably false.

Upward Bound said:

No matter how many assumptions and theories you patch together, no number of assumptions and theories equal bone afide fact.

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This makes no sense. How many assumptions do you think the standard model of cosmology is based on? How about the standard model of particle physics?

YEC is based on a single assumption: a literal reading of the scriputres that they assume to be correct. What facts form the foundation of this assumption. Do we know the author intended Genesis to read literally.

There are mountains of facts (not assumptions) that will tell you that Genesis should not be read as literal history.

Upward Bound said:

creationists don't require the amount of paperwork and bureaucracy that evolutionists have, because our theory is simple and less uninhibited by pride and humanistic intentions.

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You mean that it is solely based on pride and selfish intentions. Otherwise you would be willing to let the data in creation speak for itself. Why can't literalists accept that Genesis may never have been intended to be interpreted literally in the first place? Its simple: pride and arrogance. That is the foundation of YEC science.

Upward Bound said:

We openly admit the areas that are unanswered and need more input to clarify. Most importantly, for most creationist, we don't attempt mandate our theory as fact in clear contradiction to the apparent short-comings.

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Creationists assume that Genesis should be read as literal history. IOW, they assume all the facts and try to find them and fit all the theories to those assumptions. I'm not sure what you call that...but it is certainly not honest science. Where do you think quantum physics comes from? Do you think it was pulled out of a hat?

Upward Bound said:

Remember, it's quality, not quantity that counts for so much of life's truths.

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And thats exactly why YEC science is worthless.

Upward Bound said:

The lie continues to expand, eventually requiring so many lies to support the prior, it will be uncovered and exposed to all that were misled and knew better.

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That is an excellent description of YEC science. Lies based on a baseless premise. The sad part it you actually believe its the other way round.

Upward Bound said:

For every self-proclaimed fact that evolutionists theory-up, a creationist can counter with a scenario that is just as possible based on scientific data, and then some sources that you may or may not comprehend.

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That is false. You believe creationist areguments are equally valid because you are not familiar with the data and the theoretical formulations. Kent Hovind sells nothing but lemons. But the ignorant will buy anything. The blind leading the blind. Its no wonder you can't see science for what it really is.

Upward Bound said:

. For some, it finally comes around on their death beds as they reckon with fears that no amount of subversion can bury.

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What do I have to fear? The Lord is my shepard UB. Evolution might just be the tool God has used to form the man. It is only your own arrogance that keeps you from entertaining that as a possibility. IOW, you believe you have interpreted the scriptures with an infallible mind...while the scientists have interpreted creation with fallible minds. When you are on your death bed, how do you think God will feel about the stumbling blocks you have thrown?

Upward Bound said:

Until that time exists, and trust me, none of the current studies are concrete and conclusive, many of us remain satisfied in the wisdom inherited through Jesus Christ from the Father.

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Why should we trust you? You clearly have a personal agenda to keep. Do you really want us to believe that you keep abridged of all the research...and if there is enough evidence, then one day you will believe that evolution is true?

The wise man does not hate knowledge Upward Bound...and he does not start by assuming he has a perfect knowledge of creation based on an interpretation of the Genesis account.

I don't see any real answers to the post ideas. I see your letters but all it amounts to is blah, blah, blah, step on my neck and feed me some more chicken-feed lies.

Just as some you treated the original thread post with indirect answers and wise-crack posts, some of you continue to do so everywhere I look. It appears to be a trend with many evolutionists the moment any challenges appear to show real evidence of your theory.

Those hours that I've personally expended reading many of your posts, hours that I'll never get back in my natural life unfortunately, are virtually useless and vague to someone that thinks AND has spiritual intercession with the Father. Creation isn't entirely believed because of scriptures; prayer and spritual intercession is just as responsible. Try getting some, you'll be surprised if you commit just a few minutes everyday to God's plan for your life.

A man/woman can't reason all things and acquire all knowledge--some require a little spiritual intervention. As long as you have no spiritual relations with God, you don't have much to offer to those that don't believe your theories. Your theory assumes many things, that God instructs believers is false. It may not be entirely incorrect, and I am swayed in prayer that there is some truths to it, but the overall assertion I am told is incorrect. When I ask which idea is more correct, my spirit confirms the literal Creation origin. When I read the information that pro-evolutionists assemble, my spirit checks the things that don't add up, even though my mind may think they're possible.

It's hard to counter the Alpha & Omega's wisdom. But no doubt many will attempt. Over and over I ask myself, why do so many, including myself argue so intensely about where we came from? It is utterly worthless to each individual. It really brings no value to you or I, no sense of meaning or mission. Isn't it more important to look ahead and make the best of our lives now for our world, and our future?

If you're feeling a little confused or alone, and would like some comfort and heavenly wisdom, ask Jesus to show you your mission in life. Ask Him for a little assistance, there's no harm in being humble. You, right now, the one that senses a pull to lay down your life. Simply look to God and pray. If there is no God, what harm to you have you accomplished? If there is, if used only for the skeptics, you have opened an unlimited supply of life and wisdom.

I hope all of you a Merry Christmas and brilliant new year. And right now, at 12:09 CST in the USA, I say a prayer for your lives and all that you touch in creation. Hope to see you in the Glory forum!

Come back when you're ready for serious discussion. No amount of self-righteous complaining is going to change any of the facts in the discussion. You have yet to support your claims with evidence, and if you had read most of the discussions in the forum, you'd see that the people here who accept science are willing to explain the evidence and are able to disprove young earth creationism. In fact, this very thread contains specific examples of refutations of creationists claims (which you seem to have ignored). The only person ignoring data here is you (along with assorted other creationists).

It's hard to counter the Alpha & Omega's wisdom. But no doubt many will attempt. Over and over I ask myself, why do so many, including myself argue so intensely about where we came from? It is utterly worthless to each individual. It really brings no value to you or I, no sense of meaning or mission. Isn't it more important to look ahead and make the best of our lives now for our world, and our future?

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Actually, it is quite important to understand because it allows us to understand the human body and thus be able to treat disease. The Theory of Evolution and medicine are tightly intertwined.

But then, I guess spiritual intervention is all that you need, so when you get sick you don't go to a doctor.

Upward Bound said:

I don't see any real answers to the post ideas. I see your letters but all it amounts to is blah, blah, blah, step on my neck and feed me some more chicken-feed lies.

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I suppose as a YEC, you should be used to this type of learning experience.

However, you are not bothering to read the threads about cosmology, physics, geology, and evolution. They have lots of good comments about hard data and evidcence supporting the current models.

The fact that you see it as 'chicken-feed lies', only means that you are not objective. This much was obvious UB.

UB said:

Just as some you treated the original thread post with indirect answers and wise-crack posts,

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By all means, point out some of my wise crack posts and chicken feed lies. I would be happy to set the record straight.

UB said:

It appears to be a trend with many evolutionists the moment any challenges appear to show real evidence of your theory.

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Thats my point: you are not posting any evidence or arguments at all. Only false accusations and judgements. If I point out that to you, then you say it is a 'wise-crack post'?

When are you ever going to contribute more than judgements?

UB said:

Those hours that I've personally expended reading many of your posts, hours that I'll never get back in my natural life unfortunately, are virtually useless and vague to someone that thinks AND has spiritual intercession with the Father.

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If you don't like reading my posts, then don't bother. If you don't find them useful, then it is your fault for not recognizing that sooner. I don't find your posts useful either. But I will respond to them in order to point out the fact that you do not represent Christianity with your false judgements. IOW, I will continue to do what is necessary to remove the stumbling blocks you throw.

UB said:

Creation isn't entirely believed because of scriptures; prayer and spritual intercession is just as responsible. Try getting some, you'll be surprised if you commit just a few minutes everyday to God's plan for your life.

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Actually I consider the intercession of God the primary motivation in my life. By implying that I do not do that, you are simply arrogantly judging me. Is that the good fruit that you get from your intercessions with God? God tells you to throw stumbling blocks and pass judgements? Interesting that your words contradict Jesus teachings. Are you going to tell us that you got your words from God?

Has God also given you literal details of how he formed life in your prayers? Those details are certainly missing from the scriptures, are you saying He is filling in the blanks for you?

UB said:

As long as you have no spiritual relations with God, you don't have much to offer to those that don't believe your theories.

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You say I have no spiritual relations with God? I will let your arrogant judgements speak for themselves. They are the best proof of all that your assertions are not of God. If they were, then why would they contradict Jesus' clear theology on passing judgement like this?

You talk a good line UB, but you don't seem to practice one. Isn't that how Jesus described the pharisees?

UB said:

Your theory assumes many things, that God instructs believers is false.

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Actually, my whole point is that YEC's have assumed everything. And, you are right, God tells us that is a false thing to do.

I have assumed nothing. I let creation be creation, and I let God's Word be God's Word....I pray that God keeps me from stumbling and that He helps me to interpret and understand them.

Has God told you to assume that Genesis was intended to read as literal history?

UB said:

When I ask which idea is more correct, my spirit confirms the literal Creation origin.

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Even though that interpretation does not jive with Jesus teachings on the subject? I suppose you should double check your spiritual powers of discernment UB. If your spirit confirms that general relativity and Quantum theory are false, should we throw them out? IOW, your basis for scientific discernment is something called 'wishful thinking'.

In addition, God does not encourage the slouch to remain a slouch. Praying for enlightenment is wonderful, but doing what you can to understand the theology is also good work.

I reccomend 'Mere Christianity' by C.S. Lewis for a start. Follow it up with 'A New Kind of Christian' by Brian Mclaren. Excellent theology...a subject with which you seem to be lacking in.

UB said:

Isn't it more important to look ahead and make the best of our lives now for our world, and our future?

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If you really believed this, then you wouldn't think it was so important to disqualify the assertions of evolutionists. You obviously believe otherwise.

I do believe there are more important things in life. Removing the judgements and stumbling blocks thrown down by YECs is very important.

UB said:

If you're feeling a little confused or alone, and would like some comfort and heavenly wisdom, ask Jesus to show you your mission in life. Ask Him for a little assistance, there's no harm in being humble.

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I have, and I do. First, you arrogantly judge me and my faith...and then you tell me to be humble.

Like I said...you talk a good line, but you clearly don't feel the need to live one. How can anyone accept that you have any credibility when you are speaking from both sides of your mouth like this?

UB said:

I hope all of you a Merry Christmas and brilliant new year. And right now, at 12:09 CST in the USA, I say a prayer for your lives and all that you touch in creation. Hope to see you in the Glory forum!

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Thank you. I have the same hope for you.