COVENANTALLY SPEAKING/THINKING

[msortwell]

Generally, Reformed believers identify the following as covenants that had/have key roles in biblical redemptive history. Many identify one, or more, additional covenants.

A. Covenant of Works

B. Covenant Of Grace

C. Noahic Covenant

D. Abrahamic Covenant

E. Davidic Covenant

F. New Covenant

For persons within the following categories, please identify your understanding regarding which specific covenant(s) the people within that group are participants in (or beneficiaries of).

Assume all of these people groups are living in the 21st century.

1. True believers in Christ

2. Those who put no trust in Jesus Christ as savior

- Having heard the gospel, but rejected it
- Never having heard the gospel​

3. The baptized infant children of true believers (not yet having come to faith in Christ)

4. The un-baptized infant children of true believers (not yet have come to faith in Christ)

 

[The Righterzpen]

Generally, Reformed believers identify the following as covenants that had/have key roles in biblical redemptive history. Many identify one, or more, additional covenants.

A. Covenant of Works

B. Covenant Of Grace

C. Noahic Covenant

D. Abrahamic Covenant

E. Davidic Covenant

F. New Covenant

For persons within the following categories, please identify your understanding regarding which specific covenant(s) the people within that group are participants in (or beneficiaries of).

Assume all of these people groups are living in the 21st century.

1. True believers in Christ

2. Those who put no trust in Jesus Christ as savior

- Having heard the gospel, but rejected it
- Never having heard the gospel​

3. The baptized infant children of true believers (not yet having come to faith in Christ)

4. The un-baptized infant children of true believers (not yet have come to faith in Christ)

Not sure what your asking?

I've kind of come to the conclusion that there's actually only one covenant. You're either redeemed as elect in Christ or your condemned to pay the wages of your own sin. Since the Redeemer is the fulfillment of the only "covenant" that came before Him and the only one who ever obeyed it; you're either condemned for your disobedience or you're atoned for on account of His obedience.

One who's heard the specific revelation of Scripture, believes and obeys; is obviously in the redeemed"category.

One who's heard the specific revelation of Scripture, does not believe and is disobedient; is obviously in the unredeemed category.

One who's never heard the specific revelation of Scripture, yet believes and obeys the witness of creation; is in the redeemed category.

One who's never heard the specific revelation of Scripture, yet does not believe and disobeys the witness of creation; is in the unredeemed category.

One who has not the intellectual capacity to understand? Are they covered under "general atonement" (if there is such a thing related to humans) such as the rest of creation is part of the redemption plan? Counting God as loving and just; I would speculate they are in the redeemed category. For God knowing the beginning from the end would know that they'd die before any sort of understanding could be had.

This being said though, the spark that ignites a spiritual awakening which ultimately produces faith; is the work of God.

 

[SkyWriting]

Generally, Reformed believers identify the following as covenants that had/have key roles in biblical redemptive history. Many identify one, or more, additional covenants.

A. Covenant of Works

B. Covenant Of Grace

C. Noahic Covenant

D. Abrahamic Covenant

E. Davidic Covenant

F. New Covenant

For persons within the following categories, please identify your understanding regarding which specific covenant(s) the people within that group are participants in (or beneficiaries of).

Assume all of these people groups are living in the 21st century.

1. True believers in Christ

2. Those who put no trust in Jesus Christ as savior

- Having heard the gospel, but rejected it
- Never having heard the gospel​

3. The baptized infant children of true believers (not yet having come to faith in Christ)

4. The un-baptized infant children of true believers (not yet have come to faith in Christ)

A person must "Hate" the Holy Spirit to get into Hell.
Any other sin can be forgiven to those of any Faith.
The exact "timing" of this decision can only be discerned by God.


Matthew 12:31-32
Therefore I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven people, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.

Jeremiah 17:10
“I the Lord search the heart and test the mind, to give every man according to his ways, according to the fruit of his deeds.”

 

[msortwell]

Sadly, neither response has anything to do with my question nor does either response have anything to do with Covenant theology.

 

[Dr. Jack]

Was there a particular reason you skipped the Covenant of Redemption?

 

[msortwell]

Was there a particular reason you skipped the Covenant of Redemption?

No. Other than trying to stay away from any discussion related to whether or not making a distinction between the Covenant of Redemption and the Covenant of Grace. My interest was in probing the understanding of others regarding, primarily, the Covenant of Works and the Covenant of Grace.

But THANK you for responding with something relating to Covenant Theology!

 

[Dr. Jack]

You need to realize I am not a Calvinist, but since you made the above statement; don't you find it particularly interesting that Calvinism insists upon salvation being solely the work of God, with man having no input even regarding his will (in the Covenant of Grace; yet, in the Covenant of Works, it would be man earning his own eternal life?

 

[msortwell]

You need to realize I am not a Calvinist, but since you made the above statement; don't you find it particularly interesting that Calvinism insists upon salvation being solely the work of God, with man having no input even regarding his will (in the Covenant of Grace; yet, in the Covenant of Works, it would be man earning his own eternal life?

Soteriology has its own forum wherein you will find many well informed Calvinists to enage in this line of discussion.

 

[Dr. Jack]

Soteriology has its own forum wherein you will find many well informed Calvinists to enage in this line of discussion.

Thank you.

 

[msortwell]

Perhaps if I answer my own question, some might be inclined to support or refute it . . .

A. Covenant of Works

B. Covenant Of Grace

C. Noahic Covenant

D. Abrahamic Covenant

E. Davidic Covenant

F. New Covenant

For persons within the following categories, please identify your understanding regarding which specific covenant(s) the people within that group are participants in (or beneficiaries of).

Assume all of these people groups are living in the 21st century.

1. True believers in Christ
B, C, D, E, F

2. Those who put no trust in Jesus Christ as savior
- Having heard the gospel, but rejected it
A, C
- Never having heard the gospel
A, C

3. The baptized infant children of true believers (not yet having come to faith in Christ)
B, C, D, E, F


4. The un-baptized infant children of true believers (not yet having come to faith in Christ)
A, C,

And begin . . .

Really? Nobody?

 

[BABerean2]

Perhaps if I answer my own question, some might be inclined to support or refute it . . .

A. Covenant of Works

B. Covenant Of Grace

C. Noahic Covenant

D. Abrahamic Covenant

E. Davidic Covenant

F. New Covenant

For persons within the following categories, please identify your understanding regarding which specific covenant(s) the people within that group are participants in (or beneficiaries of).

Assume all of these people groups are living in the 21st century.

1. True believers in Christ
B, C, D, E, F

2. Those who put no trust in Jesus Christ as savior
- Having heard the gospel, but rejected it
A, C
- Never having heard the gospel
A, C

3. The baptized infant children of true believers (not yet having come to faith in Christ)
B, C, D, E, F


4. The un-baptized infant children of true believers (not yet having come to faith in Christ)
A, C,

And begin . . .

Really? Nobody?

The fulfillment of the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants are found in the first verse of the New Testament, which is a group of 27 books about the fulfillment of the New Covenant.
Luke 24:25-27 reveals that the whole Old Testament is about Christ.


Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

..........................

Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.


A person only gets into the New Covenant through the process found below.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

.

 

[msortwell]

The fulfillment of the Abrahamic and Davidic Covenants are found in the first verse of the New Testament, which is a group of 27 books about the fulfillment of the New Covenant.
Luke 24:25-27 reveals that the whole Old Testament is about Christ.


Mat 1:1 The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.

..........................

Jer_31:31 "Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

Mat_26:28 For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Mar_14:24 And He said to them, "This is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for many.

Luk_22:20 Likewise He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood, which is shed for you.

1Co_11:25 In the same manner He also took the cup after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood. This do, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me."

2Co_3:6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Heb_8:8 Because finding fault with them, He says: "BEHOLD, THE DAYS ARE COMING, SAYS THE LORD, WHEN I WILL MAKE A NEW COVENANT WITH THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL AND WITH THE HOUSE OF JUDAH—

Heb_8:13 In that He says, "A NEW COVENANT," He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

Heb_9:15 And for this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions under the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance.

Heb_12:24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel.


A person only gets into the New Covenant through the process found below.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

.

Well, much like previous responses, you decided to answer a question that I didn't ask. But you MAY have provided sufficient information for my to plug in what I would infer your answers to be.

1. True believers in Christ
F

2. Those who put no trust in Jesus Christ as savior
- Having heard the gospel, but rejected it
Perhaps A?
- Never having heard the gospel
Perhaps A?

3. The baptized infant children of true believers (not yet having come to faith in Christ)
Perhaps A?

4. The un-baptized infant children of true believers (not yet having come to faith in Christ)
And also A?

Or?????

Regarding your observation that the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants were shown to be fulfilled in Mark 1:1, are you saying that they are complete in Christ, or are in the process of being fulfilled in Christ?

 

[BABerean2]

Regarding your observation that the Abrahamic and Davidic covenants were shown to be fulfilled in Mark 1:1, are you saying that they are complete in Christ, or are in the process of being fulfilled in Christ?

Matthew 1:1.

Christ is the New Covenant.

The New Covenant is found fulfilled during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18.


Joh 19:30 So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.

There is nothing is scripture about baptized infants being in any covenant.



.

 

[Jonaitis]

A. Covenant of Works

The Covenant of Works, or sometimes called the Adamic Covenant, is the covenant agreement that was established between God and Adam in the Garden of Eden. In this covenant, God appointed Adam to be the public representative on behalf of himself and his whole posterity regarding a promise about eternal life and/or the threat about eternal damnation. The terms of this agreement was the positive law of the forbidden fruit in the Garden and the moral law in his heart (and later to be written by Moses).

 

[Jonaitis]

B. Covenant Of Grace

The Covenant of Grace is the New Covenant in promise form, not yet officially inaugurated and established. The promise of Christ was able to save retroactively those before the New Covenant by virtue of the New Covenant that was to be established.

 

[Jonaitis]

My interest was in probing the understanding of others regarding, primarily, the Covenant of Works and the Covenant of Grace.
!

It looks more like you are wanting our view of the OC, CG, and NC rather than the CW. Reformed tradition is pretty much uniform in understanding OW, it is the nature and administration of the CG in the OC and NC that has contention. This is the theological standpoint of whether we should baptize infants or not.

 

[Jonaitis]

You need to realize I am not a Calvinist, but since you made the above statement; don't you find it particularly interesting that Calvinism insists upon salvation being solely the work of God, with man having no input even regarding his will (in the Covenant of Grace; yet, in the Covenant of Works, it would be man earning his own eternal life?

It appears you do not know what you are even saying.

 

[BABerean2]

The terms of this agreement was the positive law of the forbidden fruit in the Garden and the moral law in his heart (and later to be written by Moses).

The term "the moral law" is not found in scripture.
It has been invented to make Reformed Covenant Theology work.

Below we see that the ten commandments are the Sinai Covenant, and that it was not given at an earlier time.

Exo 34:28 And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.


Deu 5:1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.
Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.
Deu 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.


In Galatians 3:16-29 the Apostle Paul said the law was "added" 430 years "after" the promise made to Abraham "until" the seed (Christ) could come to whom the promise was made.

How could Adam have committed adultery before the fall, and who would he have committed it with?


The New Covenant: Bob George

.

 

[Jonaitis]

The term "the moral law" is not found in scripture.
It has been invented to make Reformed Covenant Theology work.

Below we see that the ten commandments are the Sinai Covenant, and that it was not given at an earlier time.

You're losing me here, BABerean2. Sure, term "moral law" is not found in Scripture, but neither is the "Trinity." Just because the invented terminology wasn't present there doesn't mean the concept or doctrine isn't there.

When I speak about the "moral law," I am referring to morals that were generally understood before the Law of Moses came. It is moral to not steal, to not murder, to honor your parents, etc. These things did not come into existence after Moses, they were truths in our heart and conscience (even to this day) before Moses. The Law put that moral code on stone, but they were already understood beforehand. We had a law in our hearts that discerned right from wrong, good and bad, obedience and sin.

"For when Gentiles, who do not have the [written] law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the [written] law. They show that the work of the law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse and excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus." - Romans 2:14-16

The first commandment is, "You shall have no other gods beside me." Was this not understood before Moses? Is this not understood by pagans who never heard of Moses? Paul says that "what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened." (Romans 1:19-21). Clearly, pagans have the moral law written on their consciences, since it was given to us by nature from God to know right from wrong. Sin, however, has damaged this law and our conscience to love debased things and sear any conviction of what is right. One of the purposes of the Law of Moses was to remind sinful creatures of that damaged concept of right from wrong.

Clearly, the moral law was not written down until Moses, and people were without the [written] law. However, the concept of moral truth was embedded in man since the creation. Adam was still obligated to love God with all of the being and his neighbor as himself, as the Ten Words are summed up to be.

 

[BABerean2]

Clearly, the moral law was not written down until Moses, and people were without the [written] law. However, the concept of moral truth was embedded in man since the creation. Adam was still obligated to love God with all of the being and his neighbor as himself, as the Ten Words are summed up to be.

Both the Westminster Confession of Faith, and the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith claim that the ten commandments, which they call "the moral law", were given to Adam before the fall.

However, the scriptures say that Adam was given one commandment.

"Do not eat of..."

Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.



Both of the above confessions also claim we are still under the 4th commandment, no matter what we find in Colossians 2:16-17, and the fact that the early Church met on the first day of the week.

Can you explain how Adam could have committed adultery before the fall?

Can you explain why Paul compelled the Galatian believers to "cast out" the Sinai Covenant of "bondage" in Galatians 4:24-31?

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