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eph3Nine
Mid Acts, Pauline, Dispy to the max!
R.J.S said:LOL!
No need for debate when the Word of God rightly divided is used. We HAVE answers that are unlike those of our other brethren...no need to cram round pegs into square holes. We make the distinction GOD MAKES when dealing with differing economies and gospels.
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heymikey80
Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur
Oh, so that's why the dispensational forum is always in such turmoil. Everyone knows the truth. Yet why do people contradict ya in such avalanches of different views, if everyone knows the truth? And how is it that people can come up with such interesting paradoxes to your views if you truly know this truth?eph3Nine said:
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eph3Nine
Mid Acts, Pauline, Dispy to the max!
heymikey80 said:
Religion always argues with truth. I dont see turmoil in that forum at all. The truth is presented and we are solid in our presentation no matter what the opposition throws at us. Gods truth has never been embraced by humankind, has it? Why would you expect people to all be in agreement when you KNOW that we have an enemy that seeks to keep people IGNORANT?
I think its very pertinent to this discussion that Paul warns of people being IGNORANT of mystery truth given to him by God , specifically for we the Body of Christ. Why do so many ignore it as if its NOT THERE? Why do they think Peter is our apostle when scripture tells us this is NOT the case? Why, when we are told and warned about "another gospel and another Jesus", do we automatically think that Paul is the one in the wrong>>>>>>especially when he was given the most recent revelation from God to mankind. If the gospels was the same, then why raise up Paul? He was unnecessary, if thats the case, which its NOT.
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Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their trouble, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.
aL
aL
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eph3Nine
Mid Acts, Pauline, Dispy to the max!
The ONLY "religion" that God authorized was that which He entered into as an agreement with the nation Israel. Religion is mans way of reaching God. God wanted to deal with Israel in mercy and Grace and wanted her to be in total reliance upon Him. They refused...they wanted to PROVE, in their ignorance and pride, that they COULD DO ALL THAT THE LORD COMMANDED THEM.....Exodus 19:8 "And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD."
The rest is HISTORY. They signed up for a program of blessing and curses. All but five of the curses they earned under this agreement entered into with God (found in Leviticus 26) have taken place historically. ONE is left.
When God again resumes His agreement with Israel, this LAST course of curses will play out in history, as did the first four.
What WE have today isnt RELIGION. ONLY Israel was given that option.
What we have today is NOT man in his efforts trying to please God thru PERFORMANCE....but GRACE.
Grace tells us that there is NOTHING we can do to please God on a performance basis. There is ANOTHER who has PERFORMED according to Gods perfect standard and we are to be GIVEN the rightousness of God thru faith in that performance on our behalf.
That is what we have today..NOT religion, not mans efforts to meet Gods requirements, but Gods efforts to reconcile mankind to Himself.
NO RELIGION TODAY>
The rest is HISTORY. They signed up for a program of blessing and curses. All but five of the curses they earned under this agreement entered into with God (found in Leviticus 26) have taken place historically. ONE is left.
When God again resumes His agreement with Israel, this LAST course of curses will play out in history, as did the first four.
What WE have today isnt RELIGION. ONLY Israel was given that option.
What we have today is NOT man in his efforts trying to please God thru PERFORMANCE....but GRACE.
Grace tells us that there is NOTHING we can do to please God on a performance basis. There is ANOTHER who has PERFORMED according to Gods perfect standard and we are to be GIVEN the rightousness of God thru faith in that performance on our behalf.
That is what we have today..NOT religion, not mans efforts to meet Gods requirements, but Gods efforts to reconcile mankind to Himself.
NO RELIGION TODAY>
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Your understanding of redemptive history parrallels that of the first century Pharisees. They thought they could earn their salvation by works and Christ rebuked them and called them hypocrites. True religion has never been about man working his way to God, and God never expected Man to work his way to Him. He knew we couldn't.eph3Nine said:
The law was put in place not as a way of salvation, but as a tutor, to lead us to Christ.
Gal 3:
19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was appointed through angels by the hand of a mediator. 20 Now a mediator does not mediate for one only, but God is one.
21 Is the law then against the promises of God? Certainly not! For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law. 22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
aL
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eph3Nine
Mid Acts, Pauline, Dispy to the max!
The purpose of the law was to show mankind that NO flesh would be justified in his sight thru performance.
And you are right...the purpose of the law was to lead us to Christ who is the ONLY one who fulfilled that requirement PERFECTLY. The law was a mirror...we can look into it and see that we are dirty, but its purpose was NOT to clean us up...its purpose was to lead us to the ONE who COULD clean us up, and did.
And you are right...the purpose of the law was to lead us to Christ who is the ONLY one who fulfilled that requirement PERFECTLY. The law was a mirror...we can look into it and see that we are dirty, but its purpose was NOT to clean us up...its purpose was to lead us to the ONE who COULD clean us up, and did.
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So, if you acknowledge that the law was a tutor who is to lead us to Christ, by what logic or otherwise, can you claim that the Jews are saved by Works and Faith?
aL
aL
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eph3Nine
Mid Acts, Pauline, Dispy to the max!
TubaFour said:
Judaism is based on faith plus works. They were told what to believe, and then were required to demonstrate their faith by DOING something. James tells us that its not faith alone that saved the Jew, but faith plus works. James is a minister of the circumcision and has it exactly right. The only way it makes sense is to realize that Gods program with Israel was based on what they THOT they could DO ...READ Leviticus 26 to see what program they entered into with Him.
Blessing if they obeyed, curses if they didnt. FOUR of the FIVE courses of curses that Israel earned thru this agreement with God have already taken place. ONE remains. It wont be fulfilled until God has closed down this PRESENT dispensation of GRACE...and then He will resume His program with Israel based on their performance, curses and blessings.
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I guess Paul had spent so much time with the gentiles that he got it wrong:
Rom 4:
What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?[a] 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[b] 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 “ Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”[c]
9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.
aL
Rom 4:
What then shall we say that Abraham our father has found according to the flesh?[a] 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.”[b] 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt.
5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:
7 “ Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.”[c]
9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.
aL
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Oh, many things changed. No doubt about that. Just not the way you think. We're under a new covenant not the old. We're not in some dispensation of grace whereas those old poor jewish souls had to work and have faith to make it to heaven. Well, I guess they don't make it to heaven in dispensationalism.
Circumcision has everything to do with what we're talking about. But mainly we're talking about faith, and your assertion that jews were saved by faith plus works.
aL
Circumcision has everything to do with what we're talking about. But mainly we're talking about faith, and your assertion that jews were saved by faith plus works.
aL
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I thought the great parenthesis was the Law of Moses and the nation of Israel!! Shoot, I must have my programs all confused!!!
Really, if there ever was a parenthesis, it was the Mosaic law and God's dealing with Israel. You see, before Israel, God dealt with all mankind, and after Israel God deals with all mankind. The parenthesis is Israel and the law.. the tutor that mankind needed to reach full maturity.
aL
Really, if there ever was a parenthesis, it was the Mosaic law and God's dealing with Israel. You see, before Israel, God dealt with all mankind, and after Israel God deals with all mankind. The parenthesis is Israel and the law.. the tutor that mankind needed to reach full maturity.
aL
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eph3Nine
Mid Acts, Pauline, Dispy to the max!
TubaFour said:I thought the great parenthesis was the Law of Moses and the nation of Israel!! Shoot, I must have my programs all confused!!!
Really, if there ever was a parenthesis, it was the Mosaic law and God's dealing with Israel. You see, before Israel, God dealt with all mankind, and after Israel God deals with all mankind. The parenthesis is Israel and the law.. the tutor that mankind needed to reach full maturity.
aL
The law was not given to all mankind, and it sure wasnt given to mature them. It was given to the Nation Israel to show them that they could NOT be justified by the law. They simply couldnt do it.
The parenthesis is right smack dab in the middle of your bible. WE are IN the MYSTERY PROGRAM TODAY! It is what DIVIDES Gods program with Israel in HALF. God STOPPED ISRAELS program to introduce a NEW program that was NOT PROPHESIED, but SECRET, and HID IN GOD.
When this program has run its course, God will resume His program with Israel RIGHT WHERE IT WAS INTERRUPTED. They have ONE more course of curses to endure, and this will happen in the GREAT TRIBULATION, OTHERWISE KNOWN AS JACOBS TROUBLE.
We are not appointed unto wrath, but Israel still has to go thru the last course of curses she EARNED in the law program.
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sojourner2006
Active Member
So there really are two ways to salvation!
Thank You Mr. Darby for showing me the light!
Thank You Mr. Darby for showing me the light!
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