• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Covenant with Abraham - In Essence, a Christian Covenant?

ralliann

christian
Jun 27, 2007
8,234
2,595
✟275,921.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
I do not consider you to be butting in at all. Thanks for your contribution here. I am just giving my read of these things, and I could be wrong. So the more the better.
I see the covenants as distinct "portions" of inheritance or wills of inheritance from Abraham.
The first covenant Gen 15 is a temporal inheritance to the natural seed through, the only son Isaac.
The covenant in Gen 17 is the eternal inheritance to all Abrahams seed in Christ.
So I am not sure if you misunderstood me or not LOL. It seems we agree on at least some points.
There are a lot of things I could add but I am trying to keep it basic and simple. But do wish to add this concept for your thoughts on it. Israel as a nation is called Gods firstborn. Christ like Isaac is an only son....Wouldn't an only son be sole heir of all that belongs to his father? And would not a firstborn have a double portion? So I am thinking Israel as a nation being brought out of Egypt had a double portion. They had an inheritance of the natural worldly inheritance, but also the promise of an heavenly one as well? It is through this second portion of inheritance which is in the only begotten son Jesus Christ.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

tdidymas

Newbie
Aug 28, 2014
2,781
1,129
Houston, TX
✟211,746.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican

The nation as a whole did not have the "double portion" as you say, but only a remnant. Paul wrote "not all Israel is Israel."
TD
 
Upvote 0

ralliann

christian
Jun 27, 2007
8,234
2,595
✟275,921.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
The nation as a whole did not have the "double portion" as you say, but only a remnant. Paul wrote "not all Israel is Israel."
TD
Yes I agree. It was for a shadow and example. This is true even of the earthly covenant. But the promise of the inheritance was there for all the nation.

Nu 14:12 I will smite them with the pestilence, and disinherit them, and will make of thee a greater nation and mightier than they.

Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ralliann

christian
Jun 27, 2007
8,234
2,595
✟275,921.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
I think the same is true of the promise of the land to Abraham.
Rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

Calling things which are not, as though they are.

Ro 8:24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
Ro 8:25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
 
Upvote 0

Butch5

Newbie
Site Supporter
Apr 7, 2012
8,976
780
63
Homer Georgia
Visit site
✟336,535.00
Faith
Unorthodox
Marital Status
Married

I'm not seeing the point you're trying to make.
 
Upvote 0

ralliann

christian
Jun 27, 2007
8,234
2,595
✟275,921.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
I'm not seeing the point you're trying to make.
I don't know how to make it more plain. There are two covenants made with Abraham. One is temporal and one is eternal. One to the natural seed and another to the children of promise. Some of his natural seed like David had a double portion. David inherited the throne of the earthly worldly kingdom, as well as he will inherit in the heavenly kingdom. All in Christ share in the heavenly inheritance.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

msortwell

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2004
1,245
147
66
Gibson, Wisconsin
✟206,906.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution

I see only one covenant, one promise, albeit with multiple elements - with a partial fulfillment in the short term,and its ultimate fulfillment in Christ. Otherwise, what do we do with Gal 4:28?

28 Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise.

And in Gen 21:12
But God said to Abraham, “Do not let it be displeasing in your sight because of the lad or because of your bondwoman. Whatever Sarah has said to you, listen to her voice; for in Isaac your seed shall be called.duy

We , like the covenant Son of Abraham are children of the promise.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

tdidymas

Newbie
Aug 28, 2014
2,781
1,129
Houston, TX
✟211,746.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican


Could this be a matter of semantics? - Not 2 covenants as in 2 separate and distinct covenants that are not related, but rather 2 separate dimensions of the covenant, related in elements like promises, faith, vision, etc., but one is physical and the other spiritual? For example, Abraham was promised the land wherein he sojourned, yet he was looking for a heavenly place. Abraham believed the gospel that promised eternal life, although it was still a mystery as Paul called it, and it was communicated through the physical covenant promises which additionally had spiritual meaning.

Just wondering if it could be a point of agreement?
TD
 
Upvote 0

msortwell

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2004
1,245
147
66
Gibson, Wisconsin
✟206,906.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution

Certainly there are comonalities. Still, the degree of overlap will be determined in large part by what you mean by the "one" and the other "one."

There are three key blessings involved in the one covenant: 1) land, 2) seed, and 3) all nations blessed. The first and second of these sees their partial, temporal, fulfillment in God's blessings upon the physical offspring of Abraham until the time of the incarnation. All three see their ultimate fulfillment (both physical and spiritual) when the Christ redeems his chosen ones and ultimately retuns to rule over a great multitude from every tongue, tribe, and nation - ruling as King with all things under his feet - ruling over the new creation.
 
Upvote 0

ralliann

christian
Jun 27, 2007
8,234
2,595
✟275,921.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Concerning the land...That is why I brought up this verse. The bolded part is significant IMO.
Rom 4:17 (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

The same is true here I think..
*He was not a father of many nations, yet God spoke as though he was...
Ge 17:5 Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee.
*He spoke of land as having been already given.
De 3:18 And I commanded you at that time, saying, The LORD your God hath given you this land to possess it: ye shall pass over armed before your brethren the children of Israel, all that are meet for the war.
*He spoke of the rest he would give them
Ex 33:14 And he said, My presence shall go with thee, and I will give thee rest.
De 12:9 For ye are not as yet come to the rest and to the inheritance, which the LORD your God giveth you.
Jos 23:1 And it came to pass a long time after that the LORD had given rest unto Israel from all their enemies round about, that Joshua waxed old and stricken in age.
1Ki 8:56 Blessed be the LORD, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, according to all that he promised: there hath not failed one word of all his good promise, which he promised by the hand of Moses his servant.
* Look at Hebrews concerning this.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
I think the same exact thing can be said about the land promised to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
 
Upvote 0

ralliann

christian
Jun 27, 2007
8,234
2,595
✟275,921.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
But what of kings? Moses law did not establish a king. While a king is allowed in that God gave them specifications IF they should desire to set a king up, the law does not establish a king from Abrahams loins.
De 17:14 When thou art come unto the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, and shalt possess it, and shalt dwell therein, and shalt say, I will set a king over me, like as all the nations that are about me;
De 17:15 Thou shalt in any wise set him king over thee, whom the LORD thy God shall choose: one from among thy brethren shalt thou set king over thee: thou mayest not set a stranger over thee, which is not thy brother.

*The only other time the Mosaic covenant speaks of their king is here.

De 28:36 The LORD shall bring thee, and thy king which thou shalt set over thee, unto a nation which neither thou nor thy fathers have known; and there shalt thou serve other gods, wood and stone.

*
It seems the law says no good about the royal seed here??? So the good royal seed must have been in the promise to Abraham.

*Maybe that's why Samuel said what he did here....

1 Sam 8:5 And said unto him, Behold, thou art old, and thy sons walk not in thy ways: now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.
6 But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the LORD. {displeased: Heb. was evil in the eyes of }
7 And the LORD said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

18 And ye shall cry out in that day because of your king which ye shall have chosen you; and the LORD will not hear you in that day.

1Sa 12:19 And all the people said unto Samuel, Pray for thy servants unto the LORD thy God, that we die not: for we have added unto all our sins this evil, to ask us a king.

Another thing I think is significant is

Ga 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
The Greek Byzantine text
Ga 3:16 τω {T-DSM } δε {CONJ } αβρααμ {N-PRI } ερρηθησαν {V-API-3P } αι {T-NPF } επαγγελιαι {N-NPF } και {CONJ } τω {T-DSN } σπερματι {N-DSN } αυτου {P-GSM } ου {PRT-N } λεγει {V-PAI-3S } και {CONJ } τοις {T-DPN } σπερμασιν {N-DPN } ως {ADV } επι {PREP } πολλων {A-GPN } αλλ {CONJ } ως {ADV } εφ {PREP } ενος {A-GSN } και {CONJ } τω {T-DSN } σπερματι {N-DSN } σου {P-2GS } ος {R-NSM } εστιν {V-PXI-3S } χριστος {N-NSM }




Or as the Hebrew uses anoint Prophets are anointed ones, priests are anointed ones, and kings are anointed ones.
In Hebrew, they are Messiah,s
Le 4:3 If the priest that is anointed <04899>
Le 4:5 And the priest that is anointed <04899>
Le 4:16 And the priest that is anointed <04899> Etc .


04899 משׁיח mashiyach maw-shee’-akh
from 04886, Greek 3323 Μεσσιας; n m; [BDB-603b] {See TWOT on 1255 @@ "1255c"}
AV-anointed 37, Messiah 2; 39
1) anointed, anointed one
1a) of the Messiah, Messianic prince
1b) of the king of Israel
1c) of the high priest of Israel
1d) of Cyrus
1e) of the patriarchs as anointed kings

The Greek Septuagint Christos, the exact same as what is used in Gal of Isaac which is Christ.
Le 4:5 και λαβων ο ιερευς ο χριστος
Le 4:16 και εισοισει ο ιερευς ο χριστος απο
Le 6:22 (6:15) ο ιερευς ο χριστος αντ
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

msortwell

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2004
1,245
147
66
Gibson, Wisconsin
✟206,906.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
So you don't think Christ was the royal seed promised to Abraham?

Abraham was promised that, among his offspring would be kings (plural). Jesus is one of them. There were also others, as promised. But there is only one righteous son of David who occupies the throne of David forever - only one that is worthy to build God's house (his church) and reign forever, as promised in 2 Sam 7.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ralliann

christian
Jun 27, 2007
8,234
2,595
✟275,921.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
I agree that Christ is the righteous son of David, but I wouldn't say Christs kingship was based on the covenant made with David. The old covenant imo gave types and shadows of the reality of the Abrahamic promises. Certainly God made a covenant with David but that is based upon the following blessings from Jacob...……..The royal line prophesied here. David was chosen to be the particular recipient of it.
Gen 49:28 All these are the twelve tribes of Israel: and this is it that their father spake unto them, and blessed them; every one according to his blessing he blessed them.

Ge 49:1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you that which shall befall you in the last days.
2 Gather yourselves together, and hear, ye sons of Jacob; and hearken unto Israel your father.
8 Judah, thou art he whom thy brethren shall praise: thy hand shall be in the neck of thine enemies; thy father’s children shall bow down before thee.
9 Judah is a lion’s whelp: from the prey, my son, thou art gone up: he stooped down, he couched as a lion, and as an old lion; who shall rouse him up?
10 The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be.
11 Binding his foal unto the vine, and his ass’s colt unto the choice vine; he washed his garments in wine, and his clothes in the blood of grapes:
 
Reactions: msortwell
Upvote 0

ralliann

christian
Jun 27, 2007
8,234
2,595
✟275,921.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
I think the idea of two covenants is more accurate in keeping with the notion of these covenants being wills of inheritance, as the book of Hebrews speaks of it. I am not clear on what issues a person has with that? There is only a separation between the two if the natural seed (due to that nature) has no portion in the second. That is what keeps them connected. The natural enter in the same way as all it's heirs.
My view on this is based (rightly or wrongly) on the dichotomy between
1. This world vs the next world (that which now is, and that which will be)
2. This life vs the next life. (that which we see, that which we do not see having hope for what we do not yet have)
3. Earthly, temporal vs Heavenly, eternal
Certainly the glory of the first seemingly has no glory in comparison to the second... But it does not mean the first had no glory.
Maybe I am misunderstanding the views of others but how do the three above apply in their read of these things? Or what am I overlooking, or missing in their view of these things?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

tdidymas

Newbie
Aug 28, 2014
2,781
1,129
Houston, TX
✟211,746.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Single
Politics
US-Republican

Yes, I agree. To go a bit further, I would say that the 2nd covenant is called the "New" in Heb., and is the spiritual covenant. It was "New" in the sense that God was making it known, and incorporated the rest of the world, calling it "New," and obsoleting the "Old". It was not "new" in the sense that the gospel existed in OT times (according to Paul), and therefore the New Covenant promises also existed, and it was applied to Abraham (among others). It is also the substance (in Christ) of what the physical covenant was the type and shadow of. The point is, the spiritual covenant was implied in the physical, for those who believed in the coming Messiah. Abraham was in it, although did not realize it because Christ hadn't come yet; but he ended up in paradise, according to Luke 10.

This is just a brief abstract.
TD
 
Reactions: ralliann
Upvote 0

msortwell

Senior Member
Mar 9, 2004
1,245
147
66
Gibson, Wisconsin
✟206,906.00
Faith
Calvinist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution

We should not fail to note the distinction between prophecies declared by God's people and Covenants/Promises sovereignly established and declared by God himself. While it is certainly true that both will come to pass, between the two it is only God's promises that are causative.
 
Upvote 0

ralliann

christian
Jun 27, 2007
8,234
2,595
✟275,921.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Whew! We finally arrived at some agreement.
Here is a take IMO of Isaac as an only son (only heir of the testament).

Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. {be: or, be brought in }
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

**Abraham had sons through Hagar, Keturah, and Sarah.
Gen 25:1 Then again Abraham took a wife, and her name was Keturah.
2 And she bare him Zimran, and Jokshan, and Medan, and Midian, and Ishbak, and Shuah.
3 And Jokshan begat Sheba, and Dedan. And the sons of Dedan were Asshurim, and Letushim, and Leummim.
4 And the sons of Midian; Ephah, and Epher, and Hanoch, and Abida, and Eldaah. All these were the children of Keturah.

**Isaac (is treated) as an only son
5 And Abraham gave all that he had unto Isaac.

**Yet while living he gave gifts to his other sons, it had no force of a testament.

6 But unto the sons of the concubines, which Abraham had, Abraham gave gifts, and sent them away from Isaac his son, while he yet lived, eastward, unto the east country.

Again see the scripture here
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
 
Upvote 0

ralliann

christian
Jun 27, 2007
8,234
2,595
✟275,921.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
I am not sure I am following you, when you say prophecies declared by Gods people?
I do think there might be a distinction made concerning prophetic utterances in the law.

Mt 11:13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.
 
Upvote 0