Covenant in Genesis 15

[ronny]

Dear friends
Last night I listened to this sermon by Timothy Keller
sermons2.redeemer
.com
/sermons/covenant-relationship
A Covenant Relationship
I really liked what he had to say about Genesis 15 but was taken back as I had never heard this taught before.

Now in no way am I trying to bring into question Keller or his teaching and I am happy to accept what he says on this ultimately but I just wanted to research it more for my own personal growth.

Basically, to explain, he says that in the covenant God makes with Abraham in genesis 15 Abraham takes the sacrificed animals and lays them out with a walkway through them. Then God himself comes and passes through the walkway.
Apparently there was a custom where someone making a covenant with someone would do this to say- i am committing myself to you in this binding way and if I break the covenant with you might I suffer the same consequence that has become these animals...

So only God goes through (there appeared a smoking oven and a flaming torch which passed between these pieces) and God was saying to Abraham through this- if you fail to keep the covenant I will end up like these animals on your behalf.

Now we see this coming true with incredible awesomeness in Christ on the cross.

But I didnt know God had said even at the start something akin to
"i know you wont keep this so I am promising to take you punishment even now so great is my love for you"

And this is the covenant that Jesus fulfils on the cross and the reason it had to be that his body was literally sacrificed.

It is amazing

Anyway what I want to know is if others have come across this teaching on Gen 15 and where I might be able to research more into this particular teaching as my efforts have not been very fruitful. Thank you very much for your help

 

[ebedmelech]

This correct as far as what you've stated. However it goes back further than that.

The sin of Adam and Eve caused them to die spiritually, and the were naked before God and each other.

Their nakedness was the result of their sin and while we don't know which animal God used to cover their nakedness (sin), it caused the sheding of blood to cover their sin.

That was the first sacrifice for sin, and God required sacrifice from that point on.

This is why "without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness". The first sin caused the shedding of blood!

Christ ended sacrificial atonement once and for all.

 

[ronny]

good point ebedmelech, thank you for reminding me

Do you have any resources or website that discuss the gen 15 covenant in such terms?

Thank you

 

[hedrick]

It's a nice interpretation. I just don't think there's any reason to believe it's what the text meant in its original context.

 

[ebedmelech]

good point ebedmelech, thank you for reminding me

Do you have any resources or website that discuss the gen 15 covenant in such terms?

Thank you

Try these links from Ligonier Ministries (R C Sproul):

Abrahamic Covenant I | Reformed Bible Studies & Devotionals at Ligonier.org

The Abrahamic Covenant, Part 2 | Reformed Bible Studies & Devotionals at Ligonier.org

I hope those help you.

 

[ronny]

Thank you
I'll have a look at those when i get opportunity, maybe i'll be able to take some tonight

 

[All Souls]

Genesis 15 is a difficult text; it was likely composed during the exile, if not even later!

 

[shturt678]

Just another opinion of Gen.17, 18a The divided beast represent Israel; the birds of prey who would have devoured them are the oppressing nation; Abram drives these birds away, i.e., the blessing of God laid upon the nation for its great ancestor's sake drives away all harm; the fire passing between the parts represents the ever present God who concludes a covenant with His people and vouchsafes his continual presence to them. That is probably as far as we should carry the symbolism ... probably in error and open for refute of course, IITim.3:16

 

[childofdust]

Basically, to explain, he says that in the covenant God makes with Abraham in genesis 15 Abraham takes the sacrificed animals and lays them out with a walkway through them. Then God himself comes and passes through the walkway.
Apparently there was a custom where someone making a covenant with someone would do this to say- i am committing myself to you in this binding way and if I break the covenant with you might I suffer the same consequence that has become these animals...

So only God goes through (there appeared a smoking oven and a flaming torch which passed between these pieces) and God was saying to Abraham through this- if you fail to keep the covenant I will end up like these animals on your behalf.

Yes, the covenant ceremony in the ancient Near East involved cutting up an animal and then both parties walk between them. And, yes, the interesting thing about this covenant is that only YHWH passes through. Abram does not. What this means is that the covenant was unconditional. Nothing was required on Abram's part to keep the covenant. It depended entirely on YHWH. That is why only YHWH passed through. So, it was not possible for the response to be "If you (Abram) fail to keep the covenant," because Abram could not fail. It was unconditional. Abram didn't pass through the animals.

Now we see this coming true with incredible awesomeness in Christ on the cross.
And this is the covenant that Jesus fulfils on the cross and the reason it had to be that his body was literally sacrificed.

If this is true, what it means is that YHWH has broken his covenant with Abram. It means that YHWH is a covenant/promise breaker, unfaithful, and worthy of death for transgression of his vow. If this person you listened to is correct, it means that YHWH is a liar.

 

[ebedmelech]

Just another opinion of Gen.17, 18a The divided beast represent Israel; the birds of prey who would have devoured them are the oppressing nation; Abram drives these birds away, i.e., the blessing of God laid upon the nation for its great ancestor's sake drives away all harm; the fire passing between the parts represents the ever present God who concludes a covenant with His people and vouchsafes his continual presence to them. That is probably as far as we should carry the symbolism ... probably in error and open for refute of course, IITim.3:16

I think you're reading things into the text here. You have a narrative of some difficulty Abraham encountered as he had laid the divided animals for this covenant with God.

That is a natural thing there! Hungry birds try to eat carcasses...so I wouldn't read anything into that, unless the scripture makes something of it.

The only symbolism here is the divided animals. They were symbols that make this a covenant.

Unless you can point to the scripture making more of this act...I wouldn't.

 

[ebedmelech]

Yes, the covenant ceremony in the ancient Near East involved cutting up an animal and then both parties walk between them. And, yes, the interesting thing about this covenant is that only YHWH passes through. Abram does not. What this means is that the covenant was unconditional. Nothing was required on Abram's part to keep the covenant. It depended entirely on YHWH. That is why only YHWH passed through. So, it was not possible for the response to be "If you (Abram) fail to keep the covenant," because Abram could not fail. It was unconditional. Abram didn't pass through the animals. If this is true, what it means is that YHWH has broken his covenant with Abram. It means that YHWH is a covenant/promise breaker, unfaithful, and worthy of death for transgression of his vow. If this person you listened to is correct, it means that YHWH is a liar.

I think to say this was unconditional would be wrong. God gave Abraham this command in Genesis 17 BEFORE he gave him the covenant of circumcision. There are several points that say there is conditions:

Gen 17:1, 2:
Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him,“I am God Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless.
2 “I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply you exceedingly.”

The condition is for Abram to "walk before God and be blameless", after that God announces a covenant on that basis.

 

[Clare73]

Dear friends
Last night I listened to this sermon by Timothy Keller
sermons2.redeemer
.com
/sermons/covenant-relationship
A Covenant Relationship
I really liked what he had to say about Genesis 15 but was taken back as I had never heard this taught before.

Now in no way am I trying to bring into question Keller or his teaching and I am happy to accept what he says on this ultimately but I just wanted to research it more for my own personal growth.

Basically, to explain, he says that in the covenant God makes with Abraham in genesis 15 Abraham takes the sacrificed animals and lays them out with a walkway through them. Then God himself comes and passes through the walkway.
Apparently there was a custom where someone making a covenant with someone would do this to say- i am committing myself to you in this binding way and if I break the covenant with you might I suffer the same consequence that has become these animals..

So only God goes through (there appeared a smoking oven and a flaming torch which passed between these pieces) and God was saying to Abraham through this- if you fail to keep the covenant I will end up like these animals on your behalf.

The basic problem with this teaching is that the covenant of Ge 15 is an unconditional promise to Abraham to grant him a land.

There was nothing Abraham could do to break that covenant of promise.

Now we see this coming true with incredible awesomeness in Christ on the cross.

But I didnt know God had said even at the start something akin to
"i know you wont keep this so I am promising to take you punishment even now so great is my love for you"

And this is the covenant that Jesus fulfils on the cross and the reason it had to be that his body was literally sacrificed.

It is amazing

Anyway what I want to know is if others have come across this teaching on Gen 15 and where I might be able to research more into this particular teaching as my efforts have not been very fruitful.

It is with good reason that your efforts have not been fruitful in finding this teaching.

It is in error.
Abraham was not in a position to break God's promise.

The covenant of Ge 15 has nothing to do with Jesus' work on the cross.

 

[childofdust]

I think to say this was unconditional would be wrong. God gave Abraham this command in Genesis 17 BEFORE he gave him the covenant of circumcision. There are several points that say there is conditions:

Gen 17:1, 2:
Now when Abram was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him,“I am God Almighty; Walk before Me, and be blameless.
2 “I will establish My covenant between Me and you, And I will multiply you exceedingly.”

The condition is for Abram to "walk before God and be blameless", after that God announces a covenant on that basis.

Gen 17 is not Gen 15. I was speaking of Gen 15 (and so was the one I quoted). Yes, indeed, other covenants and other places include conditions, but that has nothing to do with anything I said or anything I was responding to.

 

[ebedmelech]

Gen 17 is not Gen 15. I was speaking of Gen 15 (and so was the one I quoted). Yes, indeed, other covenants and other places include conditions, but that has nothing to do with anything I said or anything I was responding to.

Take a look at Gen 15 and 17 brother. They are the same covenant...the only difference is God is giving circumcision as a SEAL of the covenant.

Genesis 15:18:
18 On that day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying,“To your descendants I have given this land,

Genesis 17:7
7 I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you.

They are the same.

 

[shturt678]

No correction, just a little clarity, Gen.15:18 report the establishment of the covenant which all are familiar with, but Gen.17:7 marks an advance in the direction that the things previously guaranteed are now foretold as finally coming to pass: the former covenant promises certain blessing, the later, the realization of these blessings when their appointed time has come. Don't mean to rehash all that you already are aware of but somebody else may not really understand ... thank you

 

[ebedmelech]

No correction, just a little clarity, Gen.15:18 report the establishment of the covenant which all are familiar with, but Gen.17:7 marks an advance in the direction that the things previously guaranteed are now foretold as finally coming to pass: the former covenant promises certain blessing, the later, the realization of these blessings when their appointed time has come. Don't mean to rehash all that you already are aware of but somebody else may not really understand ... thank you

No...what you have is God sealing the covenant with circumcision because He has taken the step of promising a son to Abram.

He does that because Abram made the error of listening to Sarah, who gives Abram her maid Hagar, who brings forth Ishmael.

God want's Abram to realize his descendants will come through Sarah.

Suffice it to say God wants to get things straight in Abram's mind because he listened to Sarah.

 

[shturt678]

I don't have the sealing the covenant with Abraham until v.10, minor point, sorry, and my former explanation with only v.7 ... however i'm with you ... thank you

 

[ebedmelech]

I don't have the sealing the covenant with Abraham until v.10, minor point, sorry, and my former explanation with only v.7 ... however i'm with you ... thank you

Great.

BTW...the "sealing of the covenant" is something the Apostle Paul speaks on in Romans 4!

That's good stuff!

 

[ronny]

I am enjoying the continued discussion

If this is true, what it means is that YHWH has broken his covenant with Abram. It means that YHWH is a covenant/promise breaker, unfaithful, and worthy of death for transgression of his vow. If this person you listened to is correct, it means that YHWH is a liar.

The sermon was not saying what you have written. but he was saying that Jesus' death on the cross was God taking on the punishment do as a result of Abraham/our having broken the covenant.
ei God passed through the animals on our behalf, thus doing he was saying if you break this covenant i'll take the punishment.
Not that Jesus' death was a result of God breaking the punishment at all.

It is in line with these verses:
He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Cor 5 v 21 NAS

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us-- for it is written, "cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree" Gal 3 v 13 NAS

 

[Clare73]

No...what you have is God sealing the covenant with circumcision because He has taken the step of promising a son to Abram.

He does that because Abram made the error of listening to Sarah, who gives Abram her maid Hagar, who brings forth Ishmael.

God want's Abram to realize his descendants will come through Sarah.

Suffice it to say God wants to get things straight in Abram's mind because he listened to Sarah.

Actually, you have two different covenants.

The covenant of Ge 15 was a unilateral (one-sided) unconditional promise of land, and was sealed in Ge 15:17.

The covenant of Ge 17 was a bilateral conditional promise to be their God.

Conditions: "As for me" (v. 4), and "As for you" (v.9).

This covenant was sealed with circumcision (v.10).

To this covenant was added (Ro 5:20; Gal 3:19) the temporary Sinaitic covenant.

The conditions of the Ge 17 covenant were broken (Heb 7:7), and so God promised a new covenant (Heb 7:8-13; Jer 31:3-34).