covanants

[Adventist Dissident]

I would like to talk about Covenants,I am not really well versed in this area. I would like to discuss the nature and the conditions and the signs of the covenants, what relevance for today. What are the different covenants?

The Adamic
The Noahaic
The Abrahamic
the Davidic

Any others?

any to the Christian chruch?

 

[Sophia7]

Don't forget the Mosaic.

To the Christian Church? The new covenant.

 

[OntheDL]

I would like to talk about Covenants,I am not really well versed in this area. I would like to discuss the nature and the conditions and the signs of the covenants, what relevance for today. What are the different covenants?

The Adamic
The Noahaic
The Abrahamic
the Davidic

Any others?

any to the Christian chruch?

God did promise to Adam, but there is no case of explicitly spelling out the covenant. So I'm not going to go into Adam and David's cases.

About the Noahide, Abrahmic, Mosaic and the New Covenant...

By definition, a covenant is a contract between two parties. It basically says if you'll do this, I'll do this. There is no such thing as an unconditional covenant. There'd be no use of making one.

Furthermore, God never made a covenant with gentiles (unbelievers).


Noahide covenant: covenant of Grace, Gen 6:8.

Noah's promise: obey God's commands, built the ark, bring his family and the animals into the ark, Gen 6:18 &19.

Results: Noah obeyed all God commanded, Gen 6:22.

God's promise: saved Noah and his family. no more destruction by flood.

Sign of the Noahide Covenant: rainbow. Gen 9:12-17.



Abrahamic Covenant: Covenant of Grace, Rom 4:3, Gal 3:6, James 2:26...

Abraham's promise: walk before me and be thou perfect. Gen 17:1.

Result: Abraham believed in God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Rom 4:3, James 2

God's promise: all nations be blessed through Abraham. Gen 17:4,7..

Sign: circumcision, Gen 17:11.


Mosaic Covenant: covenant of Grace (provisional)

Israel promise: obedience Ex 19:5,6, Deut 28:7,8.

Result: Israelites failed to keep their promise.

God's promise: lead Israel into the promised land, make Israel into a holy nation and a royal priesthood and protection against enemies, Ex 19:5,6, Deut 28:7,8, 15-69.

Result: the rebellious generation died in the wilderness, taken into captivity and finally the kingdom of God was taken away and given to the gentile believers, Matt 21:43.

Sign: The ratifying sign: The blood of the sacrificial animals. The expressive sign (flag/standard): The law, Ex 13:9, more explicitly the sabbath commandment, Ex 31, Ezekiel 20.


The New Covenant: covenant of Grace, (eternal). Jer 31, Heb 8, 10.

Man's promise: promise to keep the law with God's help. Jer 31. Heb 8:6.

God's promise: This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; Jer 31:31-34, Heb 10:16.

Sign: Ratifying sign: the blood of Jesus. Expressive sign (flag/standard): the law, more explicitly the sabbath commandment, Ex 31, Ezekiel 20, Heb 4:9.

 

[freeindeed2]

God did promise to Adam, but there is no case of explicitly spelling out the covenant. So I'm not going to go into Adam and David's cases.

About the Noahide, Abrahmic, Mosaic and the New Covenant...

By definition, a covenant is a contract between two parties. It basically says if you'll do this, I'll do this. There is no such thing as an unconditional covenant. There'd be no use of making one.

Furthermore, God never made a covenant with gentiles (unbelievers).


Noahide covenant: covenant of Grace, Gen 6:8.

Noah's promise: obey God's commands, built the ark, bring his family and the animals into the ark, Gen 6:18 &19.

Results: Noah obeyed all God commanded, Gen 6:22.

God's promise: saved Noah and his family. no more destruction by flood.

Sign of the Noahide Covenant: rainbow. Gen 9:12-17.



Abrahamic Covenant: Covenant of Grace, Rom 4:3, Gal 3:6, James 2:26...

Abraham's promise: walk before me and be thou perfect. Gen 17:1.

Result: Abraham believed in God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Rom 4:3, James 2

God's promise: all nations be blessed through Abraham. Gen 17:4,7..

Sign: circumcision, Gen 17:11.


Mosaic Covenant: covenant of Grace (provisional)

Israel promise: obedience Ex 19:5,6, Deut 28:7,8.

Result: Israelites failed to keep their promise.

God's promise: lead Israel into the promised land, make Israel into a holy nation and a royal priesthood and protection against enemies, Ex 19:5,6, Deut 28:7,8, 15-69.

Result: the rebellious generation died in the wilderness, taken into captivity and finally the kingdom of God was taken away and given to the gentile believers, Matt 21:43.

Sign: The ratifying sign: The blood of the sacrificial animals. The expressive sign (flag/standard): The law, Ex 13:9, more explicitly the sabbath commandment, Ex 31, Ezekiel 20.


The New Covenant: covenant of Grace, (eternal). Jer 31, Heb 8, 10.

Man's promise: promise to keep the law with God's help. Jer 31. Heb 8:6.

God's promise: This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; Jer 31:31-34, Heb 10:16.

Sign: Ratifying sign: the blood of Jesus. Expressive sign (flag/standard): the law, more explicitly the sabbath commandment, Ex 31, Ezekiel 20, Heb 4:9.

Interesting theories! Where does it say that the Sabbath is the sign of the new covenant? And where does the Lord's Supper fit into your theory of the sign of the new covenant? (I Cor 11:25, Luke 22:20, Mark 14:24)

Where did you get this from? What is your source?

 

[OntheDL]

Interesting theories! Where does it say that the Sabbath is the sign of the new covenant? And where does the Lord's Supper fit into your theory of the sign of the new covenant? (I Cor 11:25, Luke 22:20, Mark 14:24)

Exodus 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Ezekiel 20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.
...
20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God.

Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

The Lord's super is a memorial of His death. Where does it say it's the sign of the new covenant?

Where did you get this from? What is your source?

http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/index.php?action=getVersionInfo&vid=9&lang=2

 

[freeindeed2]

[/font]

Exodus 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Ezekiel 20:12 Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them.
...
20 And hallow my sabbaths; and they shall be a sign between me and you, that ye may know that I am the LORD your God.

Can you demonstrate how this is connected to the new covenant? This is written about the old covenant.

Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me.

The Lord's super is a memorial of His death. Where does it say it's the sign of the new covenant?

In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me." I Cor 11:25​

And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood." Luke 22:20​

And He said to them, "This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many." Mark 14:24​

You didn't quote the passages I posted...

http://www.biblegateway.com/versions/index.php?action=getVersionInfo&vid=9&lang=2

What is your source for your evaluation of the covenants? I'm very familiar with biblegateway.com, but the link you gave is not to the synopsis you gave for the covenants. Is that your own evaluation or did you get it from somewhere? Thanks!

 

[OntheDL]

Can you demonstrate how this is connected to the new covenant? This is written about the old covenant.

It says throughout your generations. Gentiles believers are adopted jews and inherite the promise.

It also says the sabbath is a sign between the Lord and His people that they may know I AM the Lord who does sanctify them.

Are the believers under the new covenant sanctified by the Lord?

In the same way He took the cup also after supper, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in My blood; do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of Me." I Cor 11:25

And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, "This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood." Luke 22:20

And He said to them, "This is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many." Mark 14:24
You didn't quote the passages I posted...

A sign means the flag or the standard. No where in the verses you quoted says about the sign/token/standard.

Furthermore, to understand what Jesus meant by 'this is the new testament of my blood, you need to understand the sanctuary.

What is your source for your evaluation of the covenants? I'm very familiar with biblegateway.com, but the link you gave is not to the synopsis you gave for the covenants. Is that your own evaluation or did you get it from somewhere? Thanks!

I did: the bible is my source.

 

[freeindeed2]

It says throughout your generations. Gentiles believers are adopted jews and inherite the promise.

It also says the sabbath is a sign between the Lord and His people that they may know I AM the Lord who does sanctify them.

Are the believers under the new covenant sanctified by the Lord?

A sign means the flag or the standard. No where in the verses you quoted says about the sign/token/standard.

Furthermore, to understand what Jesus meant by 'this is the new testament of my blood, you need to understand the sanctuary.

I did: the bible is my source.

Interesting.... I guess I didn't realize you put this all together yourself without any other sources. Thanks for attempting to answer my questions.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Interesting.... I guess I didn't realize you put this all together yourself without any other sources. Thanks for attempting to answer my questions.

all original stuff. hum makes me quesiton the reliablility of it.

 

[OntheDL]

all original stuff. hum makes me quesiton the reliablility of it.

You said you are not well versed on the covenant issues, you asked questions. I took time to answer them. Now what reliability are you questioning?

 

[Adventist Dissident]

You said you are not well versed on the covenant issues, you asked questions. I took time to answer them. Now what reliability are you questioning?

ok you seem to add to much info and lump thing together that make no sense. noticed i di not say i was compleyt ignorant of the covenants, just not well versed. We talked about covenats this week in sabbath school and found it very interesting. I also have see the subject of covenats come up on websites that attcak adventism. I am wonder what the big deal is.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

God did promise to Adam, but there is no case of explicitly spelling out the covenant. So I'm not going to go into Adam and David's cases.

About the Noahide, Abrahmic, Mosaic and the New Covenant...

By definition, a covenant is a contract between two parties. It basically says if you'll do this, I'll do this.

this is wrong.

there were contracts between equals, which states what you have said. I will help you if you help me.

there were also contracts between subordinates called a "susaran" covanant, learned this on sabbath,
this is made by a conquering nation to the couqured people. that is one type of covenant. this applies to Abraham

There is no such thing as an unconditional covenant. There'd be no use of making one.

the Noahaic covenant is that

Furthermore, God never made a covenant with gentiles (unbelievers).


Noahide covenant: covenant of Grace, Gen 6:8.

Noah's promise: obey God's commands, built the ark, bring his family and the animals into the ark, Gen 6:18 &19.

Results: Noah obeyed all God commanded, Gen 6:22.

God's promise: saved Noah and his familynot part of the covenant.
only this it part of the covenant
no more destruction by flood.

Sign of the Noahide Covenant: rainbow. Gen 9:12-17.



A

brahamic Covenant: Covenant of Grace, Rom 4:3, Gal 3:6, James 2:26...

Abraham's promise: walk before me and be thou perfect. Gen 17:1.

Result: Abraham believed in God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Rom 4:3, James 2

God's promise: all nations be blessed through Abraham. Gen 17:4,7..

this is not acurate

I will make you a great nation, i will give you a son
if you follow my law , the whole earth blessed.
you will be oppressed in a foregi land. 400 years.
Sign: circumcision, Gen 17:11.
God ratifed it by walikng throught the animals that werer there cut in half. abraham did nothing.

this is the terms of the covenant

The other i have not studied. just brefiely talked aobut.

 

[thecountrydoc]

Hello icedragon101,

OntheDL has given you correct and to the point answers about the most commonly reffered to covenants and the defininitave answers that are most often used. Since I can't speak with certainty for him, it would be my guess that the length of his response is actually an abbreviated response for an economy of words. If a full explaination of the covenants and their relationship to the Sabbath were to be given it would take several post.

When you say that he has "...added too much info and lumped things together...," may I suggest that you bcome better "versed" on the subject.

I say this not to be critical, but to point out that the full understanding of this subject is of vital neccesity to give a proper understanding of the Sabbath. This knowledge is of absolute neccesity when defending the Sabbath to those who do not understand the Sabbath in the NT, and especially when dealing with what "was nailed to the cross."

I will also throw out a brain teaser:

Are you certain which is the Old Covenant, and which is the New Covenant?

No matter which is which, how would you show your belief from Scripture?

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

 

[Eila]

I understand that you all believe the new covenant is a revamped covenant of that given at Sinai. However, what is the consensus for the other covenants? Do you believe the Adamic, Noahic, etc are all one covenant - just revamped each time or are those separate covenants?

 

[Adventist Dissident]

Hello icedragon101,

OntheDL has given you correct and to the point answers about the most commonly reffered to covenants and the defininitave answers that are most often used. Since I can't speak with certainty for him, it would be my guess that the length of his response is actually an abbreviated response for an economy of words. If a full explaination of the covenants and their relationship to the Sabbath were to be given it would take several post.

When you say that he has "...added too much info and lumped things together...," may I suggest that you bcome better "versed" on the subject.

I say this not to be critical, but to point out that the full understanding of this subject is of vital neccesity to give a proper understanding of the Sabbath. This knowledge is of absolute neccesity when defending the Sabbath to those who do not understand the Sabbath in the NT, and especially when dealing with what "was nailed to the cross."

I will also throw out a brain teaser:

Are you certain which is the Old Covenant, and which is the New Covenant?

No matter which is which, how would you show your belief from Scripture?

Respectfully, your brother in Christ,
Doc

I am glad you have an opinion. I respect his effort. just do not agree on all the details. You seem to present your self as an authority on the matters. what are your credentials . As far as the old and New covenants go the post is not specifically about that matter. just about covenants in general. I would disagree with you absolute necessity of knowing it to defend the sabbath. The sabbath predates the covenants.
so glad you posted. thank- you for contributing but, i have to decline to agree with you.
sincerely

The ice dragon

 

[OntheDL]

I understand that you all believe the new covenant is a revamped covenant of that given at Sinai. However, what is the consensus for the other covenants? Do you believe the Adamic, Noahic, etc are all one covenant - just revamped each time or are those separate covenants?

Where do you get this understanding from? Can you provide a quote?

 

[Eila]

Where do you get this understanding from? Can you provide a quote?

I'm sorry I don't have a quote. That is just my understanding. Don't you believe that the new covenant is the old covenant -but changed a little bit? It is my understanding that you believe the 10 commandments still apply to you and God gives you the power to keep them. Also it is my understanding that you believe certain aspects of the law of Moses still apply as well such as food laws and tithing.

 

[Adventist Dissident]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]This study has a companion set of audio messages you can listen to online here.[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]God has always dealt with his people with covenants. Beginning with Adam and continuing until the present day, God's covenants with his people have had specific characteristics. All covenants have a three-pronged structure. They include a promise by God, a condition, and a sign. [/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]ADAM
Genesis 3:15
Original Promise
All Covenants are structured
[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Promise [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Condition [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Sign

[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
ABRAHAM
Genesis 15-17 (Everlasting)
Promise—Father of Multitudes
Genesis 15:1-5
Condition—Faith: Abraham believed
Genesis 15:6
Sign—Circumcision (Gen. 17:10-13)[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]NOAH
Genesis 9:8-17
Promise—Never to destroy the earth by flood
Genesis 9:8-11,15
Condition—Unconditional
Sign—Rainbow (Genesis 9:12-16)



MOSES
Promise—A Great Land
Exodus 2:24-25
Condition—Obedience
Exodus 19:7-8
Sign—The Sabbath
(Exodus 31:12-18 & Exodus 20:8-11)

I saw this on the web site and this is what I had in mind. I don't know that I agree with everything here, but the the covenant made to Noah is (unconditiaonal). this is were I have to question DL on his reliability. i sorry if that is an offence. i don't see the condition.
[/FONT] [FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]

[/FONT]

 

[DrStupid_Ben]

Next semester I'm taking a class on the Pentateuch from the Hebrew, but until then I don't really know much, or have the time (and I'm still learning my Hebrew). Maybe later I can add some ideas. What one of my lecturers told me though, is that you need to understand the covenants to fully appreciate the Prophets

 

[OntheDL]

I'm sorry I don't have a quote. That is just my understanding. Don't you believe that the new covenant is the old covenant -but changed a little bit?

Not exactly. The New Covenant is the eternal covenant since the begining. The Old/Sinai Covenant was a provisional covenant.

It is my understanding that you believe the 10 commandments still apply to you and God gives you the power to keep them.

yes.

Also it is my understanding that you believe certain aspects of the law of Moses still apply as well such as food laws and tithing.

Again not exactly. The law of Moses contained many parts. If you look on the jewish sites, they even catagorize the '613 laws' into different sections. The Mosaic law contained the expanded moral laws based on the 10 commandments, the civil and agricultural ordinances, war, health and diet, ceremonial laws...

Dietary law and tithing are natural laws: principles and practices mentioned in the Bible before the Sinai covenant. Thus they still apply today.