Could Yeshua have sinned??

[ShirChadash]

Okay -- I asked this in the Baptist forum because the thread that got me thinking and pondering this is over in that forum, and I was curious how they would respond to the question. Now, I want to know how the rest of you who camp in the MJ forum will respond...

So: (truncated a bit, but as usual, it's a multi-parter LOL -- I've never claimed to be short-winded, but I do TRY!)

Could Yeshua, though utterly without sin, have chosen to sin instead of to obey HaShem?

As Yeshua was fully human, did He struggle with His flesh-nature and submit it to His Father's Will in obedience instead of giving in to sin?

In order for Yeshua to have lived fully as a human and for His death to atone for our sins, did He have to have had our same sin-tendency/struggles/possible choices (whatever... please know what I am talking about) and overcome them with His G-dly nature?

If Yeshua received His humanity and His flesh from His mother Miriam (which was discussed on the original thread that got me thinking), and He did have a normal human ability to be temped and possibly even choose sin (which we know is not of G-D, but of the flesh)... then did Miriam not also naturally have to have a sin-tendency inherent in her humanity as well?

Conversely, if Yeshua could not possibly have been able to choose to sin rather than to obey, then it would seem to me that He couldn't have fully experienced the human struggle of life in the post-Fall world. And if He couldn't choose to sin... well then He couldn't truly choose to obey... IMHO. Yeshua was not an automaton... right?



I realize some of these thoughts don't flow well. I'm sorry -- I'm very scattered lately, as my Dh is out of town nearly all week, every week, and life is just majorly demanding for me this time of year so it's a good day when I can rub two brain-cells together to even get a post off . But nonetheless, I know that the discussions/replies I get here will also be meaty and excellent if I throw this out for discussion, so... here goes!


PS-- I just want to make sure I am clear on this: I am not asserting that Yeshua was sinful, or that He sinned, or was fallen or anything even close (I hope I haven't goofed my comments up enough to come across as meaning anything untoward). I'm just trying to flesh something out in my mind.

Thanks all!

~z~

 

[torahlife]

Zemirah,

You asked >>>>Could Yeshua, though utterly without sin, have chosen to sin instead of to obey HaShem? <<<<<

My response is "sure, why not". Of course everyone who answers your question will have their own particular underlying reason for their position. From my perspective......think about the dichotomy here, though utterly without sin, could he sin? To be utterly without sin insinuates sinless at birth. Thus, sin is not possible. If he was born with the sin nature, then it is a matter of choice for him as it is for us. If he was sinless how could he sympathize with us? Just IMHO

Just thoughts for those who care to ponder.

Blessings,
torahlife

 

[The Thadman]

To be utterly without sin insinuates sinless at birth. Thus, sin is not possible. If he was born with the sin nature, then it is a matter of choice for him as it is for us. If he was sinless how could he sympathize with us?

We do know that his mother made the proper sacrifices at the Temple, one of which was a sin offering.

What would this imply?

I'm sure that his life and ministry was completely sinless. He embodied the Torah, for crying out loud

Peace!
-Steve-o

 

[simchat_torah]

I'm sure that his life and ministry was completely sinless. He embodied the Torah, for crying out loud

lol...

true true...


Curious... who might the person in the far left represent in comic in your signature Thadman?



*cough* no reason *cough*

 

[The Thadman]

Curious... who might the person in the far left represent in comic in your signature Thadman?

That would be my Other (and sometimes Better) Half, akhi

Peace!
-Steve-o

 

[simchat_torah]

ah... then as I thought... I must rescind the joke I made the other day about finding you a wife.

my bad


which might bring me to another question... is there a possibility that the Great Steve-O and his wife will make an appearance in the picture section someday?

 

[The Thadman]

ah... then as I thought... I must rescind the joke I made the other day about finding you a wife.

my bad

S'ok m'friend I understood the gist of what you were saying.

which might bring me to another question... is there a possibility that the Great Steve-O and his wife will make an appearance in the picture section someday?

We might... If I can find a picture that we can both agree upon.

This appears to be a theme on this forum.

Peace!
-Steve-o

 

[visionary]

Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil. We know that these were the three biggest temptations that Satan could come up within which to get Jesus to sin. We skim over these and think that these were easy sins for Jesus not to be tempted by. But if we think that then we are underestimating the foe of Jesus. Gone from the courts of Heaven, where Lucifer was considered top dog among the angels, beautiful, wise, and later crafty. Obviously smart enough to have over one third of the angels of heaven follow his lead, in the face of exisiting in heaven their entire lives up til that moment when the war was won in heaven and they were kicked out. Obviously crafty, deceptively wise enough to have a huge multitude of humans on earth completely fooled by him also even to the point out rising up an army to go against the City of God one last time.

After tempting Adam and Eve to sin, Satan probably thought he could claim the earth as his, after all the humans followed his directions and not God's, well almost all, except those faithful few. As the Son of sinful man, Christ would have to stand loyal to God. It would be the only way to show that Satan had not gained complete control of the human race, and that his claim to the world was false. All who desired deliverance from his power could be set free. There was a lot at stake in the temptations. Ever since Adam's sin, the human race had been cut off from direct communion with God; but now that Yeshua had come "in the likeness of sinful flesh" (Rom. 8:3).Many look on this conflict between Christ and Satan as having no special bearing on their own life; and for them it has little interest. But within the domain of every human heart this controversy is repeated. Never does one leave the ranks of evil for the service of God without encountering the assaults of Satan. The enticements which Christ resisted were those that we find it so difficult to withstand. They were urged upon Him in as much greater degree as there was much more at stake. With the terrible weight and results of the sins of the world before Him and upon Him, Christ withstood (1)the test upon appetite, (2) the love of the world, and (3) that love of display which leads to presumption. If there was any weakness that Satan could have found in Christ, to the point that Christ gave in, we would not have a saviour and this world would have been Satan's then and there. For our sake, He resisted even to sweating blood in the Garden of Gesthemane, which is more resistance than I can say that we have ever sweated to not sin.

His victory is ours, for now by His name, Satan flees from us, because of that battle Yeshua won for us. Praise the Lord.

 

[Carrye]

Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

Thanks Visionary. I read this question over in the Baptist forum and thought the same thing you did. I'm glad my thinking was right on.

 

[Sephania]

I know that this is skipping ahead to the end of his earthly mortal life, but didn't he have to pray for strength and also ask others to pray with him? Sleep of the enemy befell then to "hopefully" not get him the strength he needed as he knew exactly what was coming and was most assuredly humanly scared, so much so that he sweated blood.

Sin and temptation were always around him, even the Pharasees put him to the test all the time. He did not even sin in disobedience of his mothers request ( wedding cana) even though his time to start showing his power was not yet. He honored his mother instead. If you go down the 10 which summerize the 600+ then you will see how he conquered all , in true obedience, but it wasn't a peice of cake, but a conscious effort to follow the right path.

Just some thoughts........................

 

[P_G]

This appears to be a theme on this forum.

Lets see
We got a choopah
We got a glass
We got some wine and or juice
We got a napkin

So my boy how are the plans for the trip to Pennsylvania comming along?
I am surely all set for you and your lady friend's arrival!


Blessings

Pastor George
(PS I will be taking aplications for a full time Yenta for the ministry. Henny? P4I? Zemmy? Zayit? Let me know it's low pay but lots of fun!)

 

[visionary]

I know that this is skipping ahead to the end of his earthly mortal life, but didn't he have to pray for strength and also ask others to pray with him? Sleep of the enemy befell then to "hopefully" not get him the strength he needed as he knew exactly what was coming and was most assuredly humanly scared, so much so that he sweated blood.

Sin and temptation were always around him, even the Pharasees put him to the test all the time. He did not even sin in disobedience of his mothers request ( wedding cana) even though his time to start showing his power was not yet. He honored his mother instead. If you go down the 10 which summerize the 600+ then you will see how he conquered all , in true obedience, but it wasn't a peice of cake, but a conscious effort to follow the right path.

Just some thoughts........................

Amen
Yeshua was able to
1 Timothy 3:9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a pure conscience.

 

[Flavius]

I know that Yeshuah came and died as Eve in the flesh and rose as the new Adam but I realized I had been wrong all this time in my thinking when I was talking to Buccaneer on another thread.

If the furniture in the Holy place is wood overlaid with gold it means that we were waiting for someone to be born with a covering of spirit unlike us who are born with the hidden man inside.I was thinking that Yeshuah also had the hidden man inside when he was born.

But if he was really blameless it means that his covering was allready of spirit and his flesh didn't have to die but he gave his flesh for us and he was born like Adam out of sin but never fell like Adam.That's why he was able to get passed the viel.

Oh well I've been pushing this around in my mind for days.

If yeshuah would have sinned then he would have fell

 

[sojeru]

i think that it would not be wise to think of His Majesty's "sinning" in the idea of the world.
I believe it would be best to think of it in the culture in which he was reared, the religious Orthodox Jewish culture.
Jews say that Sinners are those who do not have Torah.
Yet, those who have Torah can sin they are not sinners.
This is the idea.

now, a person who is JUST is a person who is without sin...
lets see if I am right.

Luk 1:5There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife [was] of the daughters of Aaron, and her name [was] Elisabeth.
Luk 1:6And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

Now, Zachariah was blameless, so was his wife.
What does it mean to be blameless in walking in the commandments and ordinances of HaShem?
that means that they had no sin to be reconed against them that was marked in the Torah or the Oral Torah...they were blameless- thus sinless
to be called righteous=blameless
to be called just=sinless

So James the Just the brother of Jesus was the same as his brother.
another way to say his name is James the righteous
in Hebrew his name can be either.
this title gives him the merit of being "sinless"
though they may have sinned once or twice in their life- they are sinless,
reason- they know exactly what to do to repair the sins they have done.

So to have sinned once does not actually equal disobedience.

I dont know if I have explained clearly- but I hope that can get the jist if I havent

shalom u'brachot