Could There Have Been Any Death Before the Fall?

[dysert]

http://apologeticspress.org/APConte...6&utm_campaign=Newsletter+16&utm_medium=email

I ran across this interesting article and thought I'd share it. Here's a brief summary:

The implication of the text seems clear on the matter: animals throughout the Earth, not made in the image of God, were never intended to live forever. They always had the ability to die, from the beginning. They were designed to die. Like plants, they were not made in the image of God. Their deaths are not in the same category of importance as that of humans. No wonder God, Himself, killed animals in order to clothe Adam and Eve properly (Genesis 3:21), even though there is no indication that those animals did anything to deserve death. It seems that animal death, like the “death” of a plant, is not a moral evil, but rather is part of God’s plan for animals.

 

[alexandriaisburning]

Yes. Death for stars, death for animals, death for humans...death is a necessary aspect of biological life.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

no.
1 Corinthians 15:26-38, Common English Bible (CEB) Death is ...
Death is the last enemy to be brought to an end, since he has brought everything under control under his feet.


re: "Could There Have Been Any Death Before the Fall? "

 

[pat34lee]

I ran across this interesting article and thought I'd share it. Here's a brief summary:

Plants do not have the breath of life in them. Neither
do insects, fish, worms, crustaceans, arachnids, etc.
They are not alive in the same sense as humans, so
they cannot die in the same way.

Basically, just birds, reptiles, mammals and marsupials.
And man, of course.

 

[JackRT]

All life is related. All includes human. Life has been living and dying for several billion years.

 

[pat34lee]

All life is related. All includes human. Life has been living and dying for several billion years.

If you are correct, the bible is a liar.
I don't buy it.

 

[JackRT]

If you are correct, the bible is a liar.

Why in the world would you ever say that? The bible writers spoke out of their own understandings in words that a people in a prescientific culture would understand. The words were not lies but still have great meaning on an allegorical level.

 

[pat34lee]

Why in the world would you ever say that? The bible writers spoke out of their own understandings in words that a people in a prescientific culture would understand. The words were not lies but still have great meaning on an allegorical level.

You speak like those who think that man was a half-ape at one
time, and became man. Sorry, but man was the pinnacle of God's
creation. Much as creationists would love to believe in cave man,
the oldest evidence of man is as a builder, creator, farmer and
herder. They were stargazers, who mapped the movement of stars
through the heavens, and miners of gems and ores, artists and
highly intelligent communicators and mathematicians. Nothing
much evolved for man over the first few thousand years, because
IT DIDN'T HAVE TO. They didn't need technology to overcome their
limited intellect and strength.

 

[Kenny'sID]

No wonder God, Himself, killed animals in order to clothe Adam and Eve properly (Genesis 3:21), even though there is no indication that those animals did anything to deserve death. It seems that animal death, like the “death” of a plant, is not a moral evil, but rather is part of God’s plan for animals.

Unless I'm misunderstanding that, I see it a bit differently, as in killing the animal to cloth them was absolutely a moral issue, and no, not an evil, but far from a good thing it had to happen. It was the first time mans sin wad covered by the death of an animal being sacrificed, and it was bad they had to be sacrificed and a price be paid by one other than the sinner...something I hope both Adam and Eve felt guilty about. It was the first hint to how God would ultimately cover mans sin.

Point being, it wasn't because the animal didn't matter or killing an animal isn't a moral issue. It is morally wrong that the animal had to die, but that was mans fault.

 

[JackRT]

You speak like those who think that man was a half-ape at one time, and became man. Sorry, but man was the pinnacle of God's creation .

I have been a Christian for over seventy years and a scientist for somewhat less. The evidence in the stones, the bones and the stars shows clearly that God's creation took place over billions of years and is still ongoing. The several biblical creation stories are allegorical in nature.

Much as creationists would love to believe in cave man,the oldest evidence of man is as a builder, creator, farmer and herder.

The oldest evidence actually indicates that for a million years before that, man was a hunter and a gatherer who lived and evolved in an incredibly difficult and challenging world.

They were stargazers, who mapped the movement of stars through the heavens, and miners of gems and ores, artists and highly intelligent communicators and mathematicians. Nothing much evolved for man over the first few thousand years,

Evolution took and is taking place over a much more immense length of time. Even a million years ago man was intelligent and curious but the infrastructure that enabled science and technology took just as long to develop.

because IT DIDN'T HAVE TO. They didn't need technology to overcome their limited intellect and strength.

They have been overcoming their limitations for a million or more years and that is a heroic and fascinating story even beyond biblical proportions.

 

[SkyWriting]

All life is related. All includes human. Life has been living and dying for several billion years.

Just ask my aunt Audrey.

 

[JackRT]

Just ask my aunt Audrey.

I have a sneaking suspicion that my aunt Rita could take your aunt Audrey.

 

[SkyWriting]

I have a sneaking suspicion that my aunt Rita could take your aunt Audrey.

Sounds like a plant to me.

 

[FaithfulPilgrim]

I don't believe there was human death before the fall, but there was most certainly the death of plants and animals.

Now whether or not it was possible for Adam and Eve to die is debatable, but I reject human death prior to the Fall because they were the only two people at the time and had not been around long enough to experience human death.

I read an article by a YEC proponent who said animals did die before the fall as elephants could have stepped on a bug and animals drank from the water, which has tiny organisms in it.

 

[Luke17:37]

No, there was no animal death before sin. The curse affected the whole creation, including animals (Romans 8:20-22), which we can see are no longer the vegetarians they once were (Genesis 1:30). When Jesus returns and reigns on the earth, He is going to begin dismantling the curse, including restoring the animals to their Edenic diets and dispositions (see Isaiah 11 and 65).

 

[Luke17:37]

I don't believe there was human death before the fall, but there was most certainly the death of plants and animals.

Now whether or not it was possible for Adam and Eve to die is debatable, but I reject human death prior to the Fall because they were the only two people at the time and had not been around long enough to experience human death.

I read an article by a YEC proponent who said animals did die before the fall as elephants could have stepped on a bug and animals drank from the water, which has tiny organisms in it.

Plants don't have lifeblood in them. They aren't alive in the sense of men, mammals, reptiles, fish and birds.

 

[CrystalDragon]

I have a friend who's a Jehovah's Witness who stated that there was death before the Fall, just not human death. Makes sense to me as far as Genesis goes, since even herbivores eat plans which are alive.

 

[Hieronymus]

Why in the world would you ever say that?

Because in Christ's Kingdomon earth the lion will eat grass like the cow etcetera.

The bible writers spoke out of their own understandings in words that a people in a prescientific culture would understand. The words were not lies but still have great meaning on an allegorical level.

You just don't believe it but you have no proof of the contrary.

 

[Luke17:37]

I have a friend who's a Jehovah's Witness who stated that there was death before the Fall, just not human death. Makes sense to me as far as Genesis goes, since even herbivores eat plans which are alive.

Jehovah's Witnesses aren't Christians, BTW, but that's a side issue. Even if a Christian says there was animal death before the Fall, that doesn't mean anything. God's Word is the authority.

Could There Have Been Any Death Before the Fall?

 

[Speedwell]

Jehovah's Witnesses aren't Christians, BTW, but that's a side issue. Even if a Christian says there was animal death before the Fall, that doesn't mean anything. God's Word is the authority.

Could There Have Been Any Death Before the Fall?

But it's an insult and shouldn't be allowed to go by. Jehovah's Witnesses are no farther from traditional Christian doctrine than many of the YECs we hear from in this forum. As far as I am concerned, Christianity is a 'big tent' and has room for the 19th century Protestant novelty sects; YECs, Dispensationalists, Mormons, JWs, Seventh-day Adventists and so on. If a person looks to Christ for his salvation, let him in.