Could Nestorius have been right?

[Deiesous]

Okay, I know that Nestorius' "Cristotokos" theory was declared heretical, and so i am not advocating his views, but can anybody explain to me why? Doesn't it make more sence to call Mary the Cristotokos, or does everyone know something i don't? I mean, we all know she was the Mother of Christ (in his fullness, Son of Man and Son of God), but Mother of God? Idk, i think i just need a little clarification. Thx and God Bless!

 

[VickiY]

This may explain:

Nestorianism​

Nestorianism is the error that Jesus is two distinct persons. The heresy is named after Nestorius, who was born in Syria and died in 451 AD, who advocated this doctrine. Nestorius was a monk who became the Patriarch of Constantinople and he repudiated the Marian title "Mother of God." He held that Mary was the mother of Christ only in respect to His humanity. The council of Ephesus was convened in 431 to address the issue and pronounced that Jesus was one person in two distinct and inseparable natures: divine and human.
Nestorius was deposed as Patriarch and sent to Antioch, then Arabia, and then Egypt. Nestorianism survived until around 1300.
The problem with Nestorianism is that it threatens the atonement. If Jesus is two persons, then which one died on the cross? If it was the "human person" then the atonement is not of divine quality and thereby insufficient to cleanse us of our sins.

(from: http://www.carm.org/heresy/nestorianism.htm )​

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[VickiY]

THIS is a MUCH more detailed answer:

http://www.orthodoxwiki.org/Nestorianism

 

[Emmanuel-A]

Okay, I know that Nestorius' "Cristotokos" theory was declared heretical, and so i am not advocating his views, but can anybody explain to me why? Doesn't it make more sence to call Mary the Cristotokos, or does everyone know something i don't? I mean, we all know she was the Mother of Christ (in his fullness, Son of Man and Son of God), but Mother of God? Idk, i think i just need a little clarification. Thx and God Bless!

We call Mary Theotokos. That does not imply in any way that she was not created by God. That is because Jesus Christ is a single person, one of the Trinity and you can not separate his humanity and his divinity.

By saying that Mary just gave birth to the "human part" of Jesus Christ, Nestorius kind of implies that God did not fully became man, that he just took a "human envelope".
And we believe that we are saved because God made himself fully man, that's why the Church had to condemn Nestorianism.

I don't know if this is clear ?

 

[eoe]

The natures of Christ are inseperable. The Nestoran heresy contends that the natures were seperate and distinct.

Christ was God in flesh from the time that he was concieved. He did not become God after his birth.

The main problem with Nestorianism is that it denies the awesome regenerative event that actually took place in the incarnation. Have a look HERE.

 

[eoe]

I mean, we all know she was the Mother of Christ (in his fullness, Son of Man and Son of God), but Mother of God?

I just reread your post.

Answer this question: Is Jesus God?

 

[ByzantineDixie]

Okay, I know that Nestorius' "Cristotokos" theory was declared heretical, and so i am not advocating his views, but can anybody explain to me why? Doesn't it make more sence to call Mary the Cristotokos, or does everyone know something i don't? I mean, we all know she was the Mother of Christ (in his fullness, Son of Man and Son of God), but Mother of God? Idk, i think i just need a little clarification. Thx and God Bless!

Deiesous, did these references help you or are you still struggling with the concept?

 

[Deiesous]

Deiesous, did these references help you or are you still struggling with the concept?

This has been a grfeat help, many thx. God Bless!!!

 

[Franze]

I just reread your post.

Answer this question: Is Jesus God?

This is the best question to answer the issue.

 

[Deiesous]

It's just that im wondering: wouldn't calling Mary Cristotokos mean the same thing as call ing him theotokos cuz Jesus (the Christ) is God? I mean, why is it heresy?

 

[eoe]

It's just that im wondering: wouldn't calling Mary Cristotokos mean the same thing as call ing him theotokos cuz Jesus (the Christ) is God? I mean, why is it heresy?

Saying that she is the mother of the annointed one and saying that she is the mother of God is very different. Calling Mary Hristotokos is a response to others saying Theotokos. It is a denial of the hypostatic union. It is denial that God condescended to become truely human. It is a denial of the divinity of Christ. If the phrase Hristotokos was not a direct response to "Theotokos" - if the two were not related then it would not be a problem - after all she is the bearer of the annointed one. The problem lies in the fact that the term was specifically coined to deny Mary as Theotokos.

Again I ask you - Is Jesus God?

And a second question - Is Mary the mother of Jesus?

Third - was Christ God before the incarnation?

Fourth - was Christ God at all points during his incarnation? Conception , birth, before baptism, during baptism, after baptism, before, during and after his transfiguation, on the cross, in the grave, at resurrection? At what points here was Christ God?

If you answer yes to those then you have just called her Theotokos. If you answered "no" to one or more then you are closer in finding out what exactly is the problem.

 

[Katherine_van_Orvelte]

Nestorius, Nestorius....

Patristics scholars these days (including the Orthodox ones) are making a distinction between Nestorius and Nestorianism. Nestorianism is easy enough defined at Two-Sons-ism, as the teaching that there are two persons in Christ, the Son of Mary and the Son of God.

Netorius however, now there's a sticky issue. Recently translated into English and published is his Baxaar of Hericledies. Long and drawn out and boring work. Reasonably sure it is Nestorius' theological treatise (or at least someone in his camp). In it you'll find that Nestorius did, in fact, consider the term Theotokos to mean that it made Mary the mother of the Trinity. So he did not like it. On the other hand, he disliked also the term anthropotokos, saying Mary is simply the mother of the human Jesus. He used the term christotokos to mean the union of both theotokos and anthropotokos, though he didn't prohibit anyone from using either. Christotokos for Nestorius, then, is the affirmation of the God and Man coming together in the Incarnation, and that Mary gave birth to this joint person.

Now, two things you should be aware about Nestorius. He was a poor theologian, he could never keep his terminology consistent. And he was short tempered. During the brief time he was Patriarch of Constantinople he managed to tick off the Emporess, all her friends, the Arians, and the Pope in Rome. His nickname was "torchy" because he drove the Arians to such dispair they burned down their own church. And when the Council of Ephesus was called he was so mad at it being called at all that when people came to question him about his beliefs all he did was reply with snide comments and rhetorical questions.

Bottom line, at the Council of Ephesus and further it was decreed that Theotokos should be used of Mary. Since Jesus is Mary's son, the fact that she gave birth to his humanity is logically obvious, so Nestorius' point is pretty superficial. And it was also made clear that Theotokos meant only that she was the bearer of the Word united to the flesh, so Nestorius' objection was seen an invalid.

Anyways, I understand Protestant concerns. Christotokos makes more sense in a Western theology which emphasises the life of Christ after the union. But do understand that when someone says "theotokos" or "mother of God" what they mean by that.

 

[KATHXOYMENOC]

What did Jesus receive from Mary? He only received His humanity from her, correct?

Maybe she ought to have been called Iêsoutokos (IhsoutokoV) = "Mother of Jesus," or Sôtêrtokos (SwthrtokoV) = "Mother of [the] Savior" (but that's close to Christotokos (CristotokoV)) - and then separately define who JESUS is without defining exactly WHAT (in terms of His God-man-ness) Mary bore.

But I'm obviously coming many centuries too late to the party.

 

[Nickolai]

It's just that im wondering: wouldn't calling Mary Cristotokos mean the same thing as call ing him theotokos cuz Jesus (the Christ) is God? I mean, why is it heresy?

Well the term itself is imperfect. It means that Mary bore the Messiah (the anointed One). Jesus was not only the Messiah, He was God. Therefore Theotokos is more correct and complete. Jesus was God in the womb and Mary gave birth to all of Him.

Theotokos = birthgiver (mother) of God.

However Nestorius was a heretic not because he used an imperfect term, but because he seperated the two natures of Christ. he said only Christotokos was correct since Jesus wasn't God in the womb.

 

[Shubunkin]

I had heard about Nestorianism, but never fully studied it. I'm off to go do some reading about it.

 

[Philip]

It's just that im wondering: wouldn't calling Mary Cristotokos mean the same thing as call ing him theotokos cuz Jesus (the Christ) is God? I mean, why is it heresy?

The heresy is not in calling Mary Christokos, for certainly she is. The heresy is in denying that she is Theotokos. To say she is not Theotokos is to say that the Christ-child Emmanuel is somehow not fully God.

What did Jesus receive from Mary? He only received His humanity from her, correct?

Christ received from Mary exactly what I received from my mother. Yet, she the mother of all of me, not just my X Chromosome.

 

[The Virginian]

It's just that im wondering: wouldn't calling Mary Cristotokos mean the same thing as call ing him theotokos cuz Jesus (the Christ) is God? I mean, why is it heresy?

An old Protestant axiom goes, "The best commentary on the Bible, is the Bible." The Bible says in a passage that it is not a "...private interpretation. But men moved by the Holy Spirit, spoke from God." We then have Our Lord himself saying that "...I and the Father are one..." The writter of Hebrews says that "...He is the effluence/radiance of His glory, and the exact representation of His nature...."
One would have to deny the events of Mary's visit to her cousin Elizabeth, apecifically that she ever said, "...from henceforth all generations will call me blessed.", deny all that the angel spoke to the Virgin Mary, and go back to the Old Testament and deny the prophesy of God in The Garden of Eden, as He spoke to the serpent about the "seed of the woman."

In short: It is heresy because it's not the whole truth!