ChetSinger
Well-Known Member
Let's take this further. Do you believe that God has predestined the spin of every electron in creation at every moment in time?
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Let's take this further. Do you believe that God has predestined the spin of every electron in creation at every moment in time?I know. That is not the point. If God has the foreknowledge then He knew what would happen if he created this universe. If he could choose to create different universes then he chose everything that would happen to you and you have no free will.
Sure, I would be interested understanding they are speculations.
I don't believe God exists so I have no idea what theists believe on this subject.Let's take this further. Do you believe that God has predestined the spin of every electron in creation at every moment in time?
I have no idea if He made the right choice. My thought, or another persons thoughts I agreed with, is that if God chose to make this universe over any other universe He could have created knowing all that would happen then no one has free will so how can God blame non Christians for unbelief when God chose a universe where people would not believe?There are all kinds of complex twisty turns embedded in a question like this and it makes my head spin such that I'm never sure where to start. I'm going to try starting as simply as I can, then we'll go from there.
Yes, I can imagine God making different choices than what he did. But I believe he had his reasons for the choices he made, so to make different choices would have been some kind of cognitive dissonance where he's choosing something he doesn't think is best.
I'm going to guess you don't think he made the best choice. Am I right?
Now the disclaimer: I don't know what you think a god is, so I only stand by my answer in terms of what I think a god is. If you're going to insist on something different, all bets are off and I'll need to revise my answer.
My thought, or another persons thoughts I agreed with, is that if God chose to make this universe over any other universe He could have created knowing all that would happen then no one has free will so how can God blame non Christians for unbelief when God chose a universe where people would not believe?
OK.I don't believe God exists so I have no idea what theists believe on this subject.
See post # 3. Here's a link back to it:How can they not be all predetermined if God could have made a different universe but chose to create this one? Did God create the universe not knowing what would happen in it?
How does young children, whom starve to death, classify as: "all things work for their good?"
Indeed so, a serious rejection of another person.You could simply just not love.
I don't see how for love to exist we have to have free will. What is love? From what we can demonstrate love is caused by different neurotransmitters in the brain fluctuating. Also, superdeterminism cannot be ruled out as a possible solution to the bell experiments.See post # 3. Here's a link back to it:
Could God have Created a Different Universe?
As you can see from post #3, most of us will believe or think or surmise that God created a useful universe (one that results in valuable outcomes) --> one in which beings are able to choose to love. As you should be able to very easily see me explain, simply and clearly in post #3, even just that alone would strongly suggest we are not fully predetermined. Also, so do 'bell test experiments'.
In your universe without God do you believe we have free will? How do you define what free will is?I don't believe God exists so I have no idea what theists believe on this subject.
When God created the universe, did He create a universe that is the only one that He could have created or did He choose to create this universe over other different universes knowing all that would happen in this universe?
ImCo HE created this as the best pace to fulfill HIS original purpose of having a heavenly marriage with HIS creation and HIS secondary purpose (forced upon HIM by the Satanic repudiating HIM and the rebellion of some of the elect forcing the postponement of the day of judgement) of bringing HIS sheep gone astray into sin (the sinful good , ie, elect, seeds) to full holiness, ie to be in complete accord with HIS purpose for us, especially the start of the day of judgement against those who rebuked HIM as a false god and a liar.When God created the universe, did He create a universe that is the only one that He could have created or did He choose to create this universe over other different universes knowing all that would happen in this universe?
In other words, why did God create a defective universe given all that has happened on Earth?
I agreed with this but to be clear I only partially agree.If you're asking whether everything is predestined, then no, I don't think it is. Some things are, but not everything is.
I think this is a useful definition:In your universe without God do you believe we have free will? How do you define what free will is?
And what's with all these stars anyway?!? I mean... GEEZ!
No, this is not my point.In other words, why did God create a defective universe given all that has happened on Earth?
I never said the universe was the problem. The point I was trying to make is how can you have free will if God could have created any other universe but chose to create this one knowing everything that would happen in it?1/3 of the angels rebelled against God in heaven. So apparently he needs a new heaven too.
We can roll this all up into the defective product theory. God screwed up, so everything is his fault. The only real solution is to wiped us all out and start over.
Thanks Clizby WampusCat. You just got everybody killed.
This is why Jesus was required - as in not optional. Otherwise, God would have to wipe out everything and start over. Note that starting over wouldn't work either. Free will is the problem. Not the heaven and universe.
Nothing here addresses my point or answers my question. Could God have created a different universe but created this one knowing everything that would happen in it?ImCo HE created this as the best pace to fulfill HIS original purpose of having a heavenly marriage with HIS creation and HIS secondary purpose (forced upon HIM by the Satanic repudiating HIM and the rebellion of some of the elect forcing the postponement of the day of judgement) of bringing HIS sheep gone astray into sin (the sinful good , ie, elect, seeds) to full holiness, ie to be in complete accord with HIS purpose for us, especially the start of the day of judgement against those who rebuked HIM as a false god and a liar.
That it is perfect for HIS purpose suggests that it cannot be improved upon but it does not suggest that it is the only universe that can perfectly fulfill HIS purpose, does it...
Nothing here addresses my point or answers my question. Could God have created a different universe but created this one knowing everything that would happen in it?Are human prisons defective because they do not run by the same rules and morés of more polite society? Not a bit, and neither is there anything defective about the use of Earth as the prison when the Satanic horde was flung and the few sinful elect with them.
This prison called Earth is a place of judgement and the proof of evil thru death and suffering. The Satanic are partially judged for their crimes here in their lives with NO rehabilitative intent and the sinful elect suffer disciplinary punishments for their sins with a guaranteed rehabilitative effect to bring them to holiness.
All defect is found in the Earthly citizens, not in how the environment perfectly gives these corrupt citizens what they need for the redemption of the sinful elect, ie, the awareness of their own evil and that the evil of the Satanic is eternal.
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