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Could Genesis be literal?

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juvenissun

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One thing you need to remember is context. A metaphor or other figure of speech always has a context.

I have a question of different nature.

Why is the literal or not literal argument significant? In a sense, I don't care if it is liberal or not, I am only interested in the content of the interpretation. I have a vision in the understanding, I like to explain my vision to others. That is it.

If creationism is thought too "literal", then let's take the issues to their content level and skip the argument on the label of literal or non-literal. What would be the opposition to creationism then? Literal or not, every details need to be debated on it content level.

So, for example, I interpret the pillar of the earth as the magnetism of the earth. Fine, it is not literal. Then what is your interpretation? So that is it. I have my interpretation and it is one characterizes the belief of creationism. You have yours and is it one of what (whatever)? So creationism has a set of critical explanations on the Scripture which are different from other -isms. Regardless these interpretations are called literal or not.

Another example: Creationism says the creation "day" is a 24-hour day. So that it is literalism. But Creationism also says the word "water" may indicate "spirit", so it is not literalism. So creationism is both literalism and is not literalism, depend on the context of the scripture. So, that IS the creationism.

Then, what is the significance of this literalism argument? Why should a creationist defend literalism? So, my answer to the OP is: "sometimes yes and sometimes no. But I read it as a creationist does". Would this answer be acceptable?

Next time, when I am criticized as too literal in my interpretation, I will simply reply: sometimes I am, and sometimes I am not. Most importantly, I will ask back: what is your interpretation to the verses? Would that settle the criticism? A response to one of your most favorite criticism: " you simply read something into the Scripture", I would say: "that is what I can read, and it makes a perfect sense. What can you read? ".
 
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gluadys

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No - really I don't know the difference between denotation and connotation.

OK. Denotation is the strict dictionary definition of a word. Connotation are associations that connect themselves to words but are not strictly speaking what the word means.


For example: the denotation of "native" is "one born in the country they live in". During the colonial era, British administrators quite correctly referred to the indigenous peoples in Africa, India and other territories they governed as "natives". But this gave the word the connotation of "not-British". (Also it acquired other racist and negative meanings.) As a result, if you refer to an Englishman as a "native" he is likely to take offence, even if your meaning is that he is native to (=born in) England.

I often have the impression that those who hold it important to stick with a literal reading of scripture do so, not because of the dictionary meaning of "literal"--which is simply the plainest, most common meaning of the terms--but because they have invested both "literal" and "figurative" "metaphorical" "allegorical" etc. with additional connotations that are not, strictly speaking, part of the definition of the word.

So, for example, as used by many people, "literal" doesn't just mean "simple, obvious meaning". It means "real" "factual" "historical" "empirically factual" etc. And by contrast "figurative" means at best "fiction" and at worst "not true".

In part, this is not just a religious issue. The roots of this way of thinking lie in the rationalism of the Enlightenment and the rise of modern science and the scientific method.

Now there can be no doubt that scientific method has been spectacularly successful in winkling out empirically verifiable information about the natural world. But this has become linked to philosophies of scientism, logical positivism and such that go on to assert that scientific method is the only method for verifying any truth whatsoever. This thinking asserts that all truth must be empirical truth verified by empirical methods.

To the extent that Christians have succumbed to this view, they have concluded that biblical truth must also be subjected to the criteria of empirically verifiable truth. And this becomes what is meant by "literal" instead of the original definition which merely referred to the plain, common meaning.

It is a bit ironic, because it leads modern Christians who accept this view into theological stances that are quite the opposite of the biblical writers, the Church Fathers and the medieval theologians.

Almost all of these would have downplayed empirical verification as of little importance when dealing with spiritual truth. It is not the outward physical meaning of a text which is necessarily the only or most important meaning, but rather those spiritual meanings which, by definition, cannot be empirically verified. A good example of this is the fact that for more than 2,000 years the phrase "image of God" in Genesis 1 has been associated with anything but the physical human form. Most commentaries prior to 50 years ago (and possibly more recently) explicitly denied the identification of human bodily form with the image of God. Yet recently, anti-evolution arguments have included the notion that God would not have used evolution to develop a physical form which is the image of God.

The letters are symbols that compose words that have literal meaning,

Sometimes people on all sides of the controversies forget that words always have literal meanings. Furthermore, figurative language is always an elaboration of literal meanings.

The real issue is not whether a text is literal or not (all texts have a literal sense) but whether the literal sense is the relevant meaning in this context. For language itself, as you point out, is fundamentally symbolic. We use sounds and squiggles on paper (or whatever) to symbolize the meanings we wish to communicate.

But the symbolic nature of language also lends itself to going beyond the literal meaning of a text to develop ways to communicate about things that are not readily verifiable empirically. We take words that have concrete, empirical meanings and invest them with idealistic, symbolic meanings. There is nothing wrong with this. In fact, if spiritual nature is as real (perhaps even more real--as some say) than physical nature, symbolic language is both necessary to describe it and just as true as empirically verifiable observations are.

I think this is part of what you mean when you link "literal" with "experiential". You are saying your spiritual experiences are just as real as your bodily sensations.

I would agree with that sentiment. But I would caution against using the word "literal" in this way. That is adding a connotation to the word "literal" that contributes to the rampant confusion about what is meant when we speak of reading a text literally.

...... and these are all wonderful mysteries.

And mysteries are the occasion for symbolic language. They transcend the plain, obvious meaning of words.

That is why we should not fix on "real" as a meaning of "literal". Nor should we think of figurative language as denying the reality of which it speaks.
 
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gluadys

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Good for you. That is the gist of what I have been asking.

It is only significant if you take non-literal interpretation as a form of denying the reality of what the text means. So, Vossler or busterdog (and perhaps yourself) associate the idea that creation did not occur exactly as the literal reading of Genesis describes with the thinking that creation itself is not real or true. I don't know any Christian who actually holds to a figurative interpretation who thinks that.

If creationism is thought too "literal", then let's take the issues to their content level and skip the argument on the label of literal or non-literal.

Great. I am all for that.


So, for example, I interpret the pillar of the earth as the magnetism of the earth. Fine, it is not literal. Then what is your interpretation?

My interpretation is that "pillar of the earth" refers to a structure that ancient cosmologies believed existed to support the earth in the framework of the three-story universe. It has no counterpart in modern cosmology: neither magnetism nor gravity nor anything else.

Where we differ is that you are seeking a concordist meaning while I see accommodationist meaning. You want to be able to associate "pillars of the earth" with something you recognize in modern science---because you believe the phrase must refer to something that actually exists in the empirical world even today.

I, on the other hand, believe God was simply accommodating the language of revelation to the cosmological concepts of the era and that we do not have to find a modern empirical meaning for outdated scientific terms.

Either way, the important theological message is the same: the earth is God's creation. God made it, God keeps it. God's power is visible in God's creation.



Exactly. But most evolutionary creationists (aka TEs) would also say the creation "day" is a 24-hour day (I know I do) and that "water" may indicate "spirit". So it is useless to frame the difference as "literal" vs. "non-literal".


I think it is a good answer. I think it would take the debate out of the semantics of "literal" and get, as you say, to the content.

And then there would be other kinds of criticism to deal with.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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I posted this before, but apparently you missed it.
From 1 Enoch -written before the flood:



Job 9:3 If one wished to contend with Him,
He could not answer Him one time out of a thousand.
Job 9:4 God is wise in heart and mighty in strength.
Who has hardened himself against Him and prospered?
Job 9:5 He removes the mountains, and they do not know
When He overturns them in His anger;
Job 9:6 He shakes the earth out of its place,
And its pillars tremble;
Job 9:7 He commands the sun, and it does not rise;
He seals off the stars;
Job 9:8 He alone spreads out the heavens,
And treads on the waves of the sea;
Job 9:9 He made the Bear, Orion, and the Pleiades,
And the chambers of the south;
Job 9:10 He does great things past finding out,
Yes, wonders without number.

Job 26:11 The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof.

Psa 75:2 When I rapture/laqach/remove from the midst [of the world] the congregation I will judge/vindicate uprightly/with equity.
Psa 75:3 The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved [1 Enoch 57]: I bear up the pillars of it. Selah.

Luk 21:25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Luk 21:26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

[Chapter 60] A Fragment of the Book of Noah
1 In the year 500, in the seventh month, on the fourteenth day of the month in the life of *Enoch* [-should be "Noah", a vision of the destruction to come, at the flood]. In that Parable I saw how a mighty quaking made the heaven of heavens to quake, and the host of the Most High, and the angels, a thousand thousands and ten thousand times ten thousand, were 2 disquieted with a great disquiet. And the Head of Days sat on the throne of His glory, and the angels and the righteous stood around Him.
3 And a great trembling seized me,
And fear took hold of me,
And my loins gave way,
And dissolved were my reins,
And I fell upon my face.
 
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exquirer

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Thank you so much. That clarified it for me.

I suppose I can share for you an Empirical reality that may challenge some of the notions.

I read the Bible, and because I made associations of a connotative manner, came to EMPIRICAL conclusions. For empirical examples, consider:

Read Psalm 22 KJV and look up the archeology of the land of Bashan.

Read Mark chapter 8 and look up Visual Agnosia.

Go to Glastonbury and hear the haws of St. Joseph's Holy Hawthorn (fulfilling Genesis 45 I think) bloom at midnight on Old Christmas.

These things are thinly veiled in poetry so that the free will can have a choice in the matter - so our sense are not assaulted and we are forced to believe in God. So God hides in poetry a little - and we have to force ourselves or work out our own salvation to come to insights in accordance with the actions of free will and faithful prayer.

St. Thomas was bid to thrust his hands into Jesus side - and according to ancient Iconography, did so! He probed deeply and is actually commended by the early Church Fathers for doing so.

I believe E=MC^2 literally - and in tensor form, all of its connotations that come from physicists for example. The tensor form uses very elegant math - like poetry - to hide its secrets. But the secrets are literal truths - model literal reality and it is the reality that is important.

I believe the Bible literally - though in essence it is a connotative figurative form (just like E=MC^2).

A formula can lead many places in depth, and all of these intellectually are models.

According to the ancient Church Fathers, God is unknowable in essence. However, unknowable in what sense? Intellectual - for knowledge puffs up, love builds up.

God is knowable in experience - we know God when we see God - and we see God in the Holy Mysteries, in our neighbors, in acts of love, kindness, beauty, truth and intellectually - connotative consistency.

As an empirical scientist, I see consistency and know I am on the track of truth so long as it is consistent. It is not wrong to demand consistency in any intellectual model, so long as I know intellect in essence (owing to my lack of intelligence) is a model. St. John Chrysostom said we Christians know ourselves as the most ignorant of men.

Does that make sense?

When I read the Fathers, I realize that intercessory prayer calls the Saints (Peacemakers) to amend our relations with our neighbors for we are not worthy to approach the altar (Mary - Psalm 45) or the gift on the Altar (Jesus) until we are reconciled with our brothers and sisters..... Only Mary has a pure heart to truly see God, the rest of us see unclearly - but when we are changed....

The connotative is very powerful and very much the way the early Church Fathers saw things and reported them. At least that is what I think!

They went very deep, but had Greek Philosophy as their learning. Today we have science, measurement and data, but the fundamental principles and limitations are the same.

Its all there - all history, life, death, good, evil - the Bible is wonderful. I don't think demanding objective reality match spiritual is a contradiction. God became man - fully - so man could become like God - really.

ex....
 
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gluadys

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I posted this before, but apparently you missed it.
From 1 Enoch -written before the flood:

Yes, Enoch is speaking in terms of ANE cosmology too. I don't accept Enoch as inspired scripture, but if I did I would say the same as I did about the pillars of the earth.

They were a presumed feature of ancient cosmology that has no counterpart in modern cosmology. But God's revelation is accommodated as necessary to what the original audience is familiar with as long as it does not interfere with the important spiritual message.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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That is an opinion that is pure nonsense made up with absolutely no support whatsoever from God's Word or true ancient history.
Jesus called Enoch Scripture, as I wrote to you before, and used Enoch for the foundational teaching of Himself as the Son of Man who was in heaven, with God, and who was God, hidden; who was to come and so on and so forth.
Enoch was taken on a tour of heaven and earth. He saw it all, and the sun goes around the earth, as the angels showed him.
 
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gluadys

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I am not following all you say--probably because my knowledge of the Eastern traditions is wanting--but I agree with what you say above.
 
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theFijian

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Odd how in this dialogue it's the Creationist who rejects the canon of scripture and the TE who accepts it. Are you reading this Mark Kennedy?
 
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exquirer

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A mathematician confided
That a Möbius band is one-sided,
And you'll get quite a laugh,
If you cut one in half,
For it stays in one piece when divided!
It strikes me that it is not possible to cut one half -owing to the fact there is no defined half within it.

Its trans-finite in essence - cutting infinity in half is still infinity.

8 - "I believe in One Holy Catholic (Universal) and Apostolic Church" ... only in our minds can we cut an 8 in half, and then our minds become two big zeros.

ex....
 
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shernren

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that would be positively exponential!

ex...
Reminds me of the time when a bunch of friends and I were having a friendly chat in between Firefly marathons. Somebody said something was growing exponentially.

I countered "No, you mean quadratically." And I was right.

Grammar Nazism has nothing on growth-trend Nazism.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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exquirer

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Was the something associated with Metcalfe's law by any chance?

ex...
 
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theFijian

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Havilah

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ok I can't read through all these posts, so I'll just post my answer.

I read the book "The Science of God" by Schroeder and found it absolutely amazing - far better than Collins' book. I love physics and math -- Einstein is still the man.

So the answer is yes - Genesis is literal - but the universe is also 16 billion years old. I'm finally getting some closure on this issue.
 
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