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Cosmological Constant

Remnant

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Recent supernova evidence has shown that the universe probably possesses a cosmological constant - a universal "repelling" force that accelerates the stretching of space as objects become further apart from each other. In order for the universe to contain stars and planets, this constant must be fine tuned to a level of a part in 10{120}. Such an extreme level of design is almost incomprehensible. In my discussion with atheists, several have told me that they are comfortable with the idea that such levels of fine-tuning could have occurred by chance in our single universe. Such a proposal is completely illogical, and, in fact, requires more blind faith than to believe that God designed the universe. In fact, in order to be a logic-based atheist (as opposed to a faith-based one), you must believe in the multi-universe theory. Not only that, but you must believe that there are more universes in existence than the number of all the subatomic particles that exist in our universe. Don't believe me? Here is what a recent article from Science says about this hypothetical "multiverse" spinning off an "infinity" of other universes:

Uncomfortable with the idea that physical parameters like lambda [cosmological constant] are simply lucky accidents, some cosmologists, including Stephan Hawking, have suggested that there have been an infinity of big bangs going off in a larger "multiverse," each with different values for these parameters. Only those values that are compatible with life could be observed by beings such as ourselves.

Luck has no place in science, since all events must be probable (on the basis of all possible events) in order to actually occur.

What scientific evidence exists to support the multiverse model? None! Not only is there no evidence, the physics of our own universe requires that we will never be able to obtain evidence about any other universe (even if it does exist). Therefore this belief is, and always will be, based solely upon blind faith (sounds like a new religion to me)! Why are some cosmologists "uncomfortable" with the idea that the cosmological constant (lambda) is so finely tuned? Simply because such fine tuning suggests design and (oh no!) a Designer. A hypothetical, untestable, complicated model of a super universe is the only alternative to belief in God. Such belief is not based upon science, since science requires that hypotheses be testable, but is based solely on the "hope" (i.e., belief) that there is no personal God to Whom we will be personally accountable.

Even evolutionists now admit that such ideas amount to nothing more than metaphysics. In a recent discussion of the origin of life, the The Origin-of-Life Foundation, Inc.® made the following admission:

"Appeals to multiple or "parallel" cosmoses or to an infinite number of cosmic "Big Bang/Crunch" oscillations as essential elements of proposed mechanisms are not acceptable in submissions due to a lack of empirical correlation and testability. Such beliefs are without hard physical evidence and must therefore be considered unfalsifiable, currently outside the methodology of scientific investigation to confirm or disprove, and therefore more mathematically theoretical and metaphysical than scientific in nature. Recent cosmological evidence also suggests insufficient mass for gravity to reverse continuing cosmic expansion. The best cosmological evidence thus far suggests the cosmos is finite rather than infinite in age."

According to Paul Davies:

"Whether it is God, or man, who tosses the dice, turns out to depend on whether multiple universes really exist or not….If instead, the other universes are…ghost worlds, we must regard our existence as a miracle of such improbability that it is scarcely credible."

On the other hand, the deist says that God designed the universe with just the right laws of physics. Note that neither hypothesis is testable, but that the God hypothesis is much simpler. The naturalistic explanation requires the presence of a complicated, unproved super universe that has the capacity to randomly spew out an infinite number of universes with different laws of physics. How does this hypothetical super universe know how to do this? Why would it even want to do this? Ultimately, why should there be any universe at all? None of these questions are logically explained by naturalism. Only an intelligent Being would be motivated and expected to produce any kind of universe such as what we see. If we use Occam's razor, which states that one should use the simplest logical explanation for any phenomenon, we would eliminate the super universe/multi-universe explanation in favor of the simpler God-designed universe model.
 

Physics_guy

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One, Occam's Razor would not support the God hypothesis because God is an infinitely complex unevidenced entity. Don't abuse the Razor if you don't understand it.

Two, appeals to either a God or at multiverse are simply unwarranted at this point. The "finely tune" appeals all assume we understand enough of the deep structure of the Universe to say whether or not something is probable or improbable - we don't. At the the most fundamental level, the quantum level, we cannot explain gravity (and its opposite quintessence) so saying that we have any idea why the cosmological constant exists or has the level we observe is absurd. We don't know. It may be and probably is derived from some deeper structure and thus not improbable at all.

Three, there is evidence of the multiverse hypothesis, though it is still far from totally convincing. Hugh Everett has given on of the only reasonable explanations of the results of the two slit experiment by invoking quantum interverence with "adjacent" Universes. Is he right? I have no idea - it just isn't enough information to convince me yet.
 
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michabo

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Remnant said:
In fact, in order to be a logic-based atheist (as opposed to a faith-based one), you must believe in the multi-universe theory.
I must do no such thing. The multi-universe theory does have some interesting arguments, but little empirical evidence. Without evidence, I certainly don't have to jump to conclusions. Do you understand that?
Uncomfortable with the idea that physical parameters like lambda [cosmological constant] are simply lucky accidents, some cosmologists, including Stephan Hawking, have suggested that there have been an infinity of big bangs going off in a larger "multiverse," each with different values for these parameters.
Uncomfortable with the idea that physical parameters like lambda [cosmological constant] are simply lucky accidents, some theists including Remnant, have suggested that "God" must exist and solve all our questions.

Luck has no place in science, since all events must be probable (on the basis of all possible events) in order to actually occur.
Of course not! If I shuffled a deck of cards and then dealt them all out, the chance of the resulting selection would be astronomically improbable, had we calculated the odds ahead of time. And yet it happened.
What scientific evidence exists to support the multiverse model? None!
And yet you say that we must accept it. Is that the sound of straw blowing in the wind?
On the other hand, the deist says that God designed the universe with just the right laws of physics. Note that neither hypothesis is testable, but that the God hypothesis is much simpler.
If you can define 'god' with sufficiently high degree of precision and provide some plausible mechanism for its origin and fine tuning, then I would agree. So far, the only thing simple abou the 'god' theory is its lack of details - a blank slate is very simple, yet very unhelpful.

On the other hand, Feynman's sum over histories gives us both reason to think that multiple universes may exist, and a mathematical basis for exploring the consequences.
 
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"This is rather as if you imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, "This is an interesting world I find myself in - an interesting hole I find myself in - fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!" This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, its still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything's going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it, was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise." - Douglas N. Adams
 
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Aeschylus

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Remnant said:
Recent supernova evidence has shown that the universe probably possesses a cosmological constant - a universal "repelling" force that accelerates the stretching of space as objects become further apart from each other. In order for the universe to contain stars and planets, this constant must be fine tuned to a level of a part in 10{120}.
Before I tackle anything else I'll tavkle your cenrral claim:


Now I like to think I know a little bit about cosmology and the claim that the cosmological constant must be fintetuned to a level of 1 part in 10^120 looks completely bogus, mainly because we have not measured the value of the cosmological constant to anywhere near that accuracy, secondly only a few years ago pretty much evrybody thought it was zero and it is only recently that people have thought it may be non-zero.

So what I did is to find the original article:
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/cosmoconstant.html#05

And indeed they are claiming exactly what your saying, luckily howver they refrence the claim:
http://super.colorado.edu/~michaele/Lambda/phys.html

Now what this second article says is that if the Cosmological constant is caused by the Casimir effect then you get a ridculously high value for that constant of the order 10^120, (whereas current obbservation put is about soemthing like 10^-35), so in order for the csomological constant to be assocaite diwth the Casmir effect there must be some other field(s) cancelling it out at about 1 part in 10^120 (infact I'd imagine it'd be much, much smaller than that even!).

The conclusion is not that the universe is fine-tuned but the Casimir effect is not associated with the cosmological constant!
 
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Aeschylus

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No I think this is a good illustartion of cretaionistdishonesty, they have either reae the original article and not understood it and then written an article and pretended that they have, or they have understood the original article then written an article which is delibrately misleading. In this case I think they probably didn't understand the original article as from the whole tone of their artilce you cna tell they are writing about a subject which they have virtually no knowledge.
 
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smog

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Remnant said:
In order for the universe to contain stars and planets, this constant must be fine tuned to a level of a part in 10{120}.

Does it really have to contain stars and planets? You make no mention of the zillion other possible universes with different cosmological constants that each happen in a one out of a zillion chance. They aren't important. You certainly do not have to take into account the fact that the nearly infinitesimal chance of this universe happening is compensated by the nearly infinite number of possible universes, each happening with an equally infinitesimal chance, coupled with the fact that no universe is expected over another.

In fact, in order to be a logic-based atheist (as opposed to a faith-based one), you must believe in the multi-universe theory.

No, not at all. You just have to realize that the existence of our universe is not required, and that there is absolutely no logical reason to assume that because this universe is improbable, it must be designed, and that this does not apply to the zillion other improbable universes we can think of.

Luck has no place in science, since all events must be probable (on the basis of all possible events) in order to actually occur.

Pick a number between 1 and 1,000,000,000.

Every number you could have picked has a 1 in 1,000,000,000 chance of occurring (well, not really, because the human brain isn't that random), yet you have 100% chance of picking a number.

Amazing, isn't it? The universe has a 100% chance of having a cosmological constant! Which one is it? Who cares! The universe doesn't expect to pick one in particular, it just picks one, and that's it. We are "lucky" to exist, but that's fine. After all, if another constant was picked, perhaps leprechauns would have existed, so they are quite "unlucky" to not exist. If you look at it rationally, there may be many more unlucky entities than lucky ones.

Why are some cosmologists "uncomfortable" with the idea that the cosmological constant (lambda) is so finely tuned?

Because they aren't rational enough. It's hard to believe that our existence just isn't required, even for a scientist. We all want our existence to be 100% certain.

Simply because such fine tuning suggests design and (oh no!) a Designer.

No, it doesn't. If you calculate the odds of the universe occurring like that, I expect to be able to use the same methodology to calculate the odds of God occurring. So, let's look at it this way: let's say you are making a random program.

What is the chance of having a program made up of a particular constant between 1 and 10^120? 10^120.

What is the chance of having a program so complex that it would qualify as a designer? Eek. You would probably need arrow notation for that.

A designer is more complex than a fine tuned constant, and as far as I am concerned, the chance of a designer existing is dramatically lower than the odds of a simple constant being picked. For me, it's that simple.

Such belief is not based upon science, since science requires that hypotheses be testable, but is based solely on the "hope" (i.e., belief) that there is no personal God to Whom we will be personally accountable.

Don't jump from "God" to "personal God to Whom we will be personally accountable".

According to Paul Davies:

"Whether it is God, or man, who tosses the dice, turns out to depend on whether multiple universes really exist or not….If instead, the other universes are…ghost worlds, we must regard our existence as a miracle of such improbability that it is scarcely credible."

Our existence is a miracle? So if a machine picks a random number between 1 and 10,000,000,000 WITHOUT predicting a number, and that this number happens to be 6,222,709,528, is that a miracle too? Does the fact that he was picked justifies Mister 6,222,709,528 in his allegations that he was intelligently designed? Can't he accept that he's just really damn lucky? Or does he think he's the center of the universe and that not picking him is completely impossible? Maybe Mr. 3,213,633,026 would have been more interesting, but he wasn't lucky enough to be picked. Better luck next time, eh?

Needless to say, this argument reeks of anthropomorphism.

Note that neither hypothesis is testable, but that the God hypothesis is much simpler.

No it isn't much simpler. For me, God would be of such complexity that his existence is even more improbable than any "random" cosmological constant occurring. So improbable that the exponential notation probably wouldn't even be sufficient to represent God's odds.

How does this hypothetical super universe know how to do this?

It's an universe it's not a person.

Why would it even want to do this?

See above.

Ultimately, why should there be any universe at all?

Ultimately, why should there be any creator at all? A priori, a creator is much more complex than an universe, so the possibility of its existence should be a much bigger problem as far as probabilities calculations are concerned.

None of these questions are logically explained by naturalism.

It never intended to.

Only an intelligent Being would be motivated and expected to produce any kind of universe such as what we see.

What would be motivated and expected to produce an intelligent being? If it "just exists", then I will say the same of the universe and everything will be well. Granting immediately intelligent beings the power of just existing and denying it to more simple systems, such as a material universe, is incomprehensible and horribly anthropomorphical.

If we use Occam's razor, which states that one should use the simplest logical explanation for any phenomenon, we would eliminate the super universe/multi-universe explanation in favor of the simpler God-designed universe model.

No, sorry, that's not how it works. The simplest model is the model of "it happens", but it isn't worth anything is it? Occam's razor rather states that we should not posit the existence of more concepts or entities than the strict minimum required to satisfactorily explain a phenomenon. So far, absolutely no argument requires the existence of God, and yours are no exception.
 
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kingreaper

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Remnant said:
Recent supernova evidence has shown that the universe probably possesses a cosmological constant - a universal "repelling" force that accelerates the stretching of space as objects become further apart from each other. In order for the universe to contain stars and planets, this constant must be fine tuned to a level of a part in 10{120}. Such an extreme level of design is almost incomprehensible. In my discussion with atheists, several have told me that they are comfortable with the idea that such levels of fine-tuning could have occurred by chance in our single universe. Such a proposal is completely illogical, and, in fact, requires more blind faith than to believe that God designed the universe. In fact, in order to be a logic-based atheist (as opposed to a faith-based one), you must believe in the multi-universe theory. Not only that, but you must believe that there are more universes in existence than the number of all the subatomic particles that exist in our universe. Don't believe me? Here is what a recent article from Science says about this hypothetical "multiverse" spinning off an "infinity" of other universes:

Uncomfortable with the idea that physical parameters like lambda [cosmological constant] are simply lucky accidents, some cosmologists, including Stephan Hawking, have suggested that there have been an infinity of big bangs going off in a larger "multiverse," each with different values for these parameters. Only those values that are compatible with life could be observed by beings such as ourselves.

Luck has no place in science, since all events must be probable (on the basis of all possible events) in order to actually occur.

What scientific evidence exists to support the multiverse model? None! Not only is there no evidence, the physics of our own universe requires that we will never be able to obtain evidence about any other universe (even if it does exist). Therefore this belief is, and always will be, based solely upon blind faith (sounds like a new religion to me)! Why are some cosmologists "uncomfortable" with the idea that the cosmological constant (lambda) is so finely tuned? Simply because such fine tuning suggests design and (oh no!) a Designer. A hypothetical, untestable, complicated model of a super universe is the only alternative to belief in God. Such belief is not based upon science, since science requires that hypotheses be testable, but is based solely on the "hope" (i.e., belief) that there is no personal God to Whom we will be personally accountable.

Even evolutionists now admit that such ideas amount to nothing more than metaphysics. In a recent discussion of the origin of life, the The Origin-of-Life Foundation, Inc.® made the following admission:

"Appeals to multiple or "parallel" cosmoses or to an infinite number of cosmic "Big Bang/Crunch" oscillations as essential elements of proposed mechanisms are not acceptable in submissions due to a lack of empirical correlation and testability. Such beliefs are without hard physical evidence and must therefore be considered unfalsifiable, currently outside the methodology of scientific investigation to confirm or disprove, and therefore more mathematically theoretical and metaphysical than scientific in nature. Recent cosmological evidence also suggests insufficient mass for gravity to reverse continuing cosmic expansion. The best cosmological evidence thus far suggests the cosmos is finite rather than infinite in age."

According to Paul Davies:

"Whether it is God, or man, who tosses the dice, turns out to depend on whether multiple universes really exist or not….If instead, the other universes are…ghost worlds, we must regard our existence as a miracle of such improbability that it is scarcely credible."

On the other hand, the deist says that God designed the universe with just the right laws of physics. Note that neither hypothesis is testable, but that the God hypothesis is much simpler. The naturalistic explanation requires the presence of a complicated, unproved super universe that has the capacity to randomly spew out an infinite number of universes with different laws of physics. How does this hypothetical super universe know how to do this? Why would it even want to do this? Ultimately, why should there be any universe at all? None of these questions are logically explained by naturalism. Only an intelligent Being would be motivated and expected to produce any kind of universe such as what we see. If we use Occam's razor, which states that one should use the simplest logical explanation for any phenomenon, we would eliminate the super universe/multi-universe explanation in favor of the simpler God-designed universe model.
But as I have demonstrated before, the simplest creator God which would choose to create this precise universe is likely almost as complex as this universe, if not more so

No simple motivation such as a desire for company would be best served by this universe

The simplest desire that I havew come across that would result in the creation of this universe is the desire to create every logically possible thing (or multiverse theory)

The next simplest is a desire to create precisely this universe (which is more complex than the mere existance of this universe)
 
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Bushido216

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Essentialy what the OP has said is because we are a one in a billion chance, we must have been put here on purpose.

What the OP forgets is that when you roll the billion sided di, EACH outcome is equally as unlikely, but you HAVE TO GET SOMETHING.
 
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smog

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The simplest desire is to just create an universe and look at it, so he would make random universes until one he deems interesting is found. So eventually, he would stumble upon our universe, find it interesting, and he'd watch it until he gets bored.

Well, if I was God, that is what I would do.
 
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kingreaper

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smog said:
The simplest desire is to just create an universe and look at it, so he would make random universes until one he deems interesting is found. So eventually, he would stumble upon our universe, find it interesting, and he'd watch it until he gets bored.

Well, if I was God, that is what I would do.
Once again, thats multiverse theory

Also, being omniscient, he'd already know exactly what this universe would be like, so I don't see how it could alleviate boredom

But as I said, multiverse creation is a good one

In fact, when I posed the question of why God would create this world, I realised that the multiverse theory doesn't even require him to create any worlds

In his omniscience he knows what would happen in every world, what we're experiencing, and in fact what we are, is his knowledge of what would happen if he created this universe
 
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smog

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kingreaper said:
Once again, thats multiverse theory

It would be if he didn't delete or change the universes he didn't like, and just kept making new ones. But he could very well just change the constants on the fly or trash boring universes before creating new ones so there would only be one or two running at once.

Also, being omniscient, he'd already know exactly what this universe would be like, so I don't see how it could alleviate boredom

Well, there are movies we enjoy to see over and over again. It could be the same thing. Actually, being omniscient, that's pretty much the only reason he would have to create universes at all - he would have an immense playlist of universes, and he would play them randomly because he likes them.

In any case, no, it doesn't make more sense for me than it does for you. Well, the whole thing doesn't make any sense. But whatever.

In fact, when I posed the question of why God would create this world, I realised that the multiverse theory doesn't even require him to create any worlds

In his omniscience he knows what would happen in every world, what we're experiencing, and in fact what we are, is his knowledge of what would happen if he created this universe

It's hard to make any difference between God thinking about an universe and God actually creating it, since no one is able to define the bounds within which he operates. This said, there should not be any difference. Information is information, no matter in what semantical category you put it. Most people would be surprised to realize how few logical reasons there are to consider a virtual or imaginary world as "less real" than ours.
 
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