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cosmic background radiation

Shane Roach

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Can anyone explain CBR in terms of wavefunction collapse in language I can understand?

A basic understanding of wavefunction collapse leaves me thinking that there would be no possible set of circumstances for which we would not have CBR. Obviously I am not a physicist though.
 
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sfs

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Can anyone explain CBR in terms of wavefunction collapse in language I can understand?

A basic understanding of wavefunction collapse leaves me thinking that there would be no possible set of circumstances for which we would not have CBR. Obviously I am not a physicist though.
What does CBR have to do with wavefunction collapse? The background radiation is electromagnetic radiation from the early universe, when it was very hot. The radiation has since been red-shifted to long wavelengths by the expansion of the universe. I don't see where wavefunction collapse (which is a process in some interpretations of quantum mechanics) has anything to do with it.
 
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lucaspa

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Can anyone explain CBR in terms of wavefunction collapse in language I can understand?

A basic understanding of wavefunction collapse leaves me thinking that there would be no possible set of circumstances for which we would not have CBR. Obviously I am not a physicist though.

Let me reinforce sfs. You seem to have confused 2 separate ideas. The CBR (or CMBR for cosmic microwave background radiation) is the light emitted when matter/antimatter annihilated each other shortly after the Big Bang. It has been red-shifted by the expansion of the universe.

Wavefunction collapse happens (mostly) to matter at the quantum level when you have 2 or more possibilities. The most notable example is the thought experiment Schroedinger's Cat. A cat is in a box that has a packet of cyanide suspended above a cup of acid that will make cyanide gas and kill the cat. The cyanide will drop if a radioactive atom decays. But that event is due to quantum events and can happen anytime in its half life. So, unless one looks inside the box, the cat both dead and alive at the same time. It's called "superposition" or "coherence".


Our common sense says that the cat must be either alive or dead but not both. However, at the quantum level it can be both. For a while. It turns out that coherence decays and the decay is inversely proportional to the size of the object. A cat is so very large that the amount of time it can stay in coherence is probably less than Planck time or 10^-43 seconds.

In one study I have seen, an atom in coherence had its 2 coherent states actually moved apart, so that the atom existed in 2 places at the same time.
 
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Shane Roach

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I'm pretty sure I have confused something, but I am sure that it is not CBR and waveform collapse. What I am confused about is that some level of background radiation would seem to exist no matter what, as light does not simply emit from a source and travel in a straight line to its destination. As such, with multiple sources, one would expect to see light from pretty much every direction at some given frequency rather than expecting any gaps. This makes it difficult for me to understand the significance of CBR. From what I have read its initial discovery was considered somewhat surprising, but quantum physics was well beyond the double-slit experiment and as such this discovery would not seem to me to be a surprising one at all, nor how it would suggest anything at all about the origin of the universe.

Here's a paper discussing the interaction between quantum dynamics and the CBR, if not the precise confusion.

http://www.df.ufscar.br/~quantum/publications/PRA12108.pdf

Basically I am trying to figure out how we distinguish between an expected background radiation due to CBR and an expected background radiation due to waveform probabilities and collapse at our particular observation point.

Hopefully that will make my question both sound stupider and become easier to answer all at the same time.
 
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lucaspa

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I'm pretty sure I have confused something, but I am sure that it is not CBR and waveform collapse. What I am confused about is that some level of background radiation would seem to exist no matter what, as light does not simply emit from a source and travel in a straight line to its destination. As such, with multiple sources, one would expect to see light from pretty much every direction at some given frequency rather than expecting any gaps. This makes it difficult for me to understand the significance of CBR. From what I have read its initial discovery was considered somewhat surprising, but quantum physics was well beyond the double-slit experiment and as such this discovery would not seem to me to be a surprising one at all, nor how it would suggest anything at all about the origin of the universe.

Again, the CMBR initially had nothing to do with quantum mechanics. It is about Relativity, not QM. Be patient and read my entire post before you respond, please.

Now, as it happens, we don't see the same level of light from all directions, do we? There are bright points and dark areas: stars and galaxies and black space in between. So, at any given wavelength, the intensity of light varies from point to point in the sky. We do get gaps at nearly all wavelengths from microwave to x-rays.

BUT, this is not true for a particular frequency of microwave radiation: 3 degrees Kelvin. Those are very long wavelengths of light. That radiation is nearly the same no matter where in the sky you look. And it's discovery was surprising. The guys who discovered it were not looking for it, but instead were testing a microwave telescope. They had never heard of Big Bang. However, Big Bang predicts that such radiation should exist. When the universe was very small, it cooled enough for matter to condense. Matter and antimatter were formed in almost equal amounts, but they destroyed each other (there was 1 part per billion excess of matter, which gives us all the matter in the universe today). When matter and antimatter annihilate one another, the result is photons. It is those photons that comprise the CMBR.

Now, the universe is heterogenous: we do have galaxies and other clumps of matter in it. However, if the universe were completely homogenous at the time of the matter/antimatter annihilation, we would not have clumps of matter today. What people began looking for was very tiny differences in the intensity of the CMBR. These correspond to quantum fluctuations of slightly higher density back when the CMBR was formed. Since gravity is only an attraction force, even very small initial differences in density would, in time, give rise to galaxies and clusters of galaxies.

Here's a paper discussing the interaction between quantum dynamics and the CBR, if not the precise confusion.

http://www.df.ufscar.br/~quantum/publications/PRA12108.pdf

The paper is very confusing and beyond the math that I usually do. It is a highly esoteric paper arguing an alternative to a then published theory about decoherence . For some reason they think that the early universe at the time the CMBR formed was in a state of coherence. I have not encountered that anywhere. They then try to tie that to the CMBR by saying: "an increase of total mean energy of the Universe claimed to be the origin of the cosmic background radiation (CBR)." From what I have read, as I stated above, the CBR resulted from the annihilation of matter/antimatter pairs and there is no increase in the total mean energy of the universe as a result.

The authors later state "we assume ad hoc that the evolution of the system of particles, under the influence of the CBR," As I said, everything I have read says that the CMBR resulted from matter/antimatter annihilation, not that CMBR influenced the system. So their ad hoc hypothesis, which is essential to their calculations, is basically at odds with the rest of the cosomological community. Which may explain why this paper has not been accepted by the community.

Basically I am trying to figure out how we distinguish between an expected background radiation due to CBR and an expected background radiation due to waveform probabilities and collapse at our particular observation point.]

A waveform collapse will not, by itself, generate any radiation. So any "waveform probabilities and collapse" will not, by itself, give the CBR. The CBR is the expected background radiation. Expected from the Big Bang.

As the paper states: "in the present work we assume the point of view of standard cosmology: the present CBR is a clue that the universe began its expansion from a Big Bang (10)." The paper does not give an alternative explanation for the cause of the CBR (waveform collapse), but instead uses the CBR as a means of looking at a supposed waveform collapse shortly after the Big Bang.
 
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Shane Roach

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What I needed, and you pointed out, is that not all wavelengths are included in the background. :) Very basic stuff. Sorry, but thanks a ton for clearing that up for me. I sure appreciate it. You gave me a lot of information I did not really know enough to even ask, but it was very interesting.

Thanks again.
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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The background radiation is electromagnetic radiation from the early universe, when it was very hot. The radiation has since been red-shifted to long wavelengths by the expansion of the universe.
Utter 20th century pseudoscience. If you believe that, you probably also believe Cinderella had invisible pink unicorns aboard Noah's Ark.

Cartwright, J., Analysis Confronts Model of Universe Formation, Physics World, Nov 2007

Davidson, K., Big Bang or Big Goof? Astronomer Challenges 'Seeds' Proof, Wired, Nov 2007

Verschuur, G.L., High Galactic Latitude Interstellar Neutral Hydrogen Structure and Associated (WMAP) High-Frequency Continuum Emission, The Astrophysical Journal, Volume 671, Pages 447-457, Dec 2007
 
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lucaspa

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What I needed, and you pointed out, is that not all wavelengths are included in the background. :)

AH! THAT was it! Yes, the "CBR" is usually written as "CMBR" or Cosmic Microwave Background Radiation. It is only the wavelength corresponding to 3 degrees Kelvin. All the other wavelengths are not uniform, as you can see by looking at the night sky and seeing bright spots for stars and everything else is black. :)

You're very welcome.
 
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lucaspa

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Utter 20th century pseudoscience. If you believe that, you probably also believe Cinderella had invisible pink unicorns aboard Noah's Ark.

Cartwright, J., Analysis Confronts Model of Universe Formation, Physics World, Nov 2007

Davidson, K., Big Bang or Big Goof? Astronomer Challenges 'Seeds' Proof, Wired, Nov 2007

Verschuur, G.L., High Galactic Latitude Interstellar Neutral Hydrogen Structure and Associated (WMAP) High-Frequency Continuum Emission, The Astrophysical Journal, Volume 671, Pages 447-457, Dec 2007

LOL. All these are from ONE GUY -- Vershuur. He is disagreeing with everyone else that has looked at the data. What's more, he is not arguing the the CMBR comes from the Big Bang. He is arguing that the minor temperature variations in the CMBR are not from the Big Bang. You didn't even read the article correctly.

And based on this disagreement from one individual -- who isn't even disagreeing that the CMBR comes from the Big Bang -- you are going to categorically assert that the CMBR is not left over from the Big Bang? Wow. Your comments about Cinderella and pink unicorns are projections in the psychological sense. It's apparent, Agnoces, that you will believe any fairy tale if it corresponds to what you'd like to believe. And apparently bear false witness about the evidence you present.

You should have read a bit more in your first source. It turns out there is a paper refuting Vershuur referenced in it:
" In his paper Verschuur notes six areas where he has found visual correlations between the LAB and WMAP surveys,...
"Not everyone agrees with the US physicist’s inferences, however. Kate Land at the University of Oxford in the UK and Anže Slosar at the University of Ljubljana in Slovenia compared various maps from the LAB and WMAP surveys at different frequency bands and scales using computer “Monte Carlo” techniques, but found no statistically significant correlations (Phys. Rev. D 76 087301).
"As for the reliability of visual inspections, Land and Slosar recall the urban myth that a certain point in the WMAP survey contains Stephen Hawking’s initials. “Correlations by eye are very misleading,” they conclude. "

But you, of course, attribute those visual correlations as gospel. Before you accuse people of " believe Cinderella had invisible pink unicorns aboard Noah's Ark" I suggest you re-read the parables of Jesus. The one about eyes, beams, and dustmotes is particulary appropriate for you in this situation.
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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LOL. All these are from ONE GUY -- Vershuur.
It's called actual science.

"Whenever you hear the consensus of scientists agrees on something or other, reach for your wallet, because you're being had. Let's be clear: the work of science has nothing whatever to do with consensus. Consensus is the business of politics. Science, on the contrary, requires only one investigator who happens to be right, which means that he or she has results that are verifiable by reference to the real world. In science consensus is irrelevant. What is relevant is reproducible results. The greatest scientists in history are great precisely because they broke with the consensus. There is no such thing as consensus science. If it's consensus, it isn't science. If it's science, it isn't consensus. Period." -- Michael Crichton, author, January 17th 2003

He is disagreeing with everyone else that has looked at the data.
You don't know everyone else that has looked at the data so your megalomaniacal boast is blatantly absurd. He certainly isn't disagreeing with me and I have looked at the data so you stand refuted.

It's apparent, Agnoces, that you will believe any fairy tale if it corresponds to what you'd like to believe.
So do you. So what?

"We all believe in fairy-tales, and live in them." -- G. K. Chesterton, philosopher, Heretics, Chapter XX: Concluding Remarks About Orthodoxy, 1905

"My first and last philosophy, that which I believe in with unbroken certainty, I learnt in the nursery. ... The things I believed most then, the things I believe most now, are the things called fairy tales. They seem to be the entirely reasonable things. They are not fantasies: compared with them other things that are fantastic. ... Fairyland is nothing but the sunny country of common sense." -- G. K. Chesterton, philosopher, Orthodoxy, Chapter IV: The Ethics of Elfland, 1909

But you, of course, attribute those visual correlations as gospel.
I consider direct observation to be similar to gospel. It's called empirical science.

"Unlike the current belief in the field that observations can be discarded according to whether they fit a theory, I submit that the observations in fact are the known laws of physics." -- Halton C. Arp, astronomer, 1987

images


NGC4319.jpg
 
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sandwiches

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You didn't even read the article correctly.
AoS does this a lot. He'll link us articles and papers that he thinks support his ideas, when in reality, falsify or contradict them. Look for AoS's whale thread. It's a fun read.
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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AoS does this a lot. He'll link us articles and papers that he thinks support his ideas, when in reality, falsify or contradict them. Look for AoS's whale thread. It's a fun read.
If I had no logic, no logical argument, no scientific evidence, and no peer-reviewed citations, I would say the exact same thing.
 
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sandwiches

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If I had no logic, no logical argument, no scientific evidence, and no peer-reviewed citations, I would say the exact same thing.

Are you saying that Lucas was wrong when he said:
[H]e is not arguing the the CMBR comes from the Big Bang. He is arguing that the minor temperature variations in the CMBR are not from the Big Bang.
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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I am saying that the Big Bang is a myth anyway you look at it.

"... it seems likely that redshift may not be due to an expanding Universe, and much of the speculations on the structure of the universe may require re-examination." -- Edwin P. Hubble, astronomer, 1947

"The chance that the [Big Bang] theory is right is now less than one in one hundred trillion." -- Eric J. Lerner, physicist, 1991

"If you want to find evidence refuting Big Bang Theory, just point a telescope at the sky!" -- Tom Van Flandern, astronomer, 1993

"Actually the 3 degree radiation, to me, has not a cosmological view. It is observed in any cosmology. In any cosmology you can predict the 3 degree radiation. So it's a proof of no cosmology at all if it can be predicted by all of them." -- Jean-Claude Pecker, astronomer, 2000

"There's no explanation at all of the cosmic microwave background in the Big Bang Theory. All you can say for the theory is that it permits you to put it in if you want to put it in. So you look and it's there so you put it in. That's it; it isn't an explanation." -- Fred Hoyle, cosmologist, 2000

"When you read the text books, they don't tell the whole story. They don't present these figures: five, greater than five, seven, fifty, and then that they did find three. So that's very strange how the textbooks they hide a part of history." -- Andre K. Assis, plasma physicist, 2000
 
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sandwiches

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I am saying that the Big Bang is a myth anyway you look at it.

"... it seems likely that redshift may not be due to an expanding Universe, and much of the speculations on the structure of the universe may require re-examination." -- Edwin P. Hubble, astronomer, 1947

"The chance that the [Big Bang] theory is right is now less than one in one hundred trillion." -- Eric J. Lerner, physicist, 1991

"If you want to find evidence refuting Big Bang Theory, just point a telescope at the sky!" -- Tom Van Flandern, astronomer, 1993

"Actually the 3 degree radiation, to me, has not a cosmological view. It is observed in any cosmology. In any cosmology you can predict the 3 degree radiation. So it's a proof of no cosmology at all if it can be predicted by all of them." -- Jean-Claude Pecker, astronomer, 2000

"There's no explanation at all of the cosmic microwave background in the Big Bang Theory. All you can say for the theory is that it permits you to put it in if you want to put it in. So you look and it's there so you put it in. That's it; it isn't an explanation." -- Fred Hoyle, cosmologist, 2000

"When you read the text books, they don't tell the whole story. They don't present these figures: five, greater than five, seven, fifty, and then that they did find three. So that's very strange how the textbooks they hide a part of history." -- Andre K. Assis, plasma physicist, 2000

That's fine but do you agree that the paper your linked does NOT support your assertion?
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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That's fine but do you agree that the paper your linked does NOT support your assertion?
What is my assertion? The paper is my assertion so how can it not support itself?
 
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sandwiches

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What is my assertion? The paper is my assertion so how can it not support itself?

Oh OK. So you do realize that the paper does NOT dispute the CMBR being from the Big Band or there having a Big Bang to begin with. Good. I didn't know you had changed your mind from your last post to this one.
 
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Agonaces of Susa

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Oh OK. So you do realize that the paper does NOT dispute the CMBR being from the Big Band or there having a Big Bang to begin with. Good. I didn't know you had changed your mind from your last post to this one.
I haven't changed my mind.

"The Big Bang never happened." -- Eric J. Lerner, physicist, 1991
 
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sandwiches

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I haven't changed my mind.

"The Big Bang never happened." -- Eric J. Lerner, physicist, 1991

Oh OK. So, your assertion does contradict the link you posted. Like Lucaspa: "You didn't even read the article correctly."
 
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