Cope India 2006

[srev2004]

For the second year running, the Indian Air Force came out with flying colours in their brush with the world's most technological advanced airpower -- the United States of America.

Like fish taking to water, Indian fighter pilots took their maiden introduction to Airborne Early Warning and Control System technology, which flew over the country's skies for the first time. Fresh from having proved their mettle in manoeuvres with their United States Air Force counterparts in exercises last year on F-15 Tomcats, IAF pilots held their own, when they came up against the Fighting Falcons -- F-16's, billed as the most superior fighter in the world during the almost two week long joint exercises.

“We’re trying to not talk about the scoring stuff,” he added. “I think both sides got a lot of bad press last year and everyone missed the emphasis. More importantly, both sides are doing well and we’re accomplishing the objective that we set out here to obtain.”

As the Cope India 2005 Indo-US air force exercises wound down today after two weeks of feverish action in the eastern skies, the US Air Force were left with a stark, double-edged realisation.

One — that it is no longer the unchallenged leader in the skies, and two—for all future joint operations in South Asia, the IAF would, without doubt, be its natural partner.

...During the last Cope India exercise in February 2004, American F-15 pilots had admitted finding it bizarre that their Indian counterparts had routed them in many manoeuvres. This time round, the buzzword was a studied ‘jointness’, though pilots told this newspaper off the record that the IAF had maintained its "one-up"

“We’re trying to not talk about the scoring stuff,” he added. “I think both sides got a lot of bad press last year and everyone missed the emphasis. More importantly, both sides are doing well and we’re accomplishing the objective that we set out here to obtain.”

 

[LogicChristian]

F-15 Tomcats

uh...

Anyway, in the earlier excercises, the MKI pilots were up against US planes that are, in some cases, over 25 years old.

India hasn't gone up against the F-22A or the F-35 yet.

 

[LogicChristian]

Also, were any of these aircraft, including the F-16s, AESA equipped?

 

[Crusader05]

Also bear in mind we wear not using any of our classified tactics. So, we were fighting with one hand behind our backs. But the Indians are really good nonetheless.

 

[srev2004]

Also bear in mind we wear not using any of our classified tactics. So, we were fighting with one hand behind our backs. But the Indians are really good nonetheless.

I don't think the Indians were playing all their cards either.

 

[LogicChristian]

I don't think the Indians were playing all their cards either.

From Grunt in your Russian fighters thread.

No, I am talking about the 2004 excercise, which every one made a big deal over because USAF F-15s "lost" to IAF Su-30s.

The F-15s were:
-outnumbered 3 to 1 (most engagements were 12 Su-30 vs 4 F-15C)
-without AWACS support
-flying red air, under heavy restrictions to simulate worst case scenario

 

[srev2004]

From Grunt in your Russian fighters thread.

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The USA was overconfident. Hence set those conditions.

 

[LogicChristian]

The USA was overconfident. Hence set those conditions.

But do you think beating the US at 3 to 1 odds is really a showcase of India's supposed superior military capabilities?

 

[WarSong]

uh...

Anyway, in the earlier excercises, the MKI pilots were up against US planes that are, in some cases, over 25 years old.

India hasn't gone up against the F-22A or the F-35 yet.

Not only that, but the F-16 is hardly the best air-superiority aircraft in the world.

The F-15 is.

Some part of me wonders if some USAF brass is using this as reason for Raptors, or at least more. Fat cats in the Pentagon are sneaky enough to sacrifice the pride and honor of the poor *******s fighting for them so they can look good when they write their memoirs.

That being said, there is nothing to say the skill and quality of the IAF is less than the USAF. However, the USAF has some distinct advantages.

1) USAF, and for that matter, USN and USMC pilots have been flying Operation Northern & Southern Watch missions for a decade before Operation Iraqi Freedom started. That, my friends, is a lot of combat experience, even if it is against sneaky Iraq SAMs. We can also include actions in Yugoslavia.

2) If something unpredictable and traumatic were to happen, and we went to war with each other, the US Navy would eat the IAF alive. That's right, the Navy. Not only that, but staging grounds in Qatar, Iraq, Afghanistan, and other places where USAF aircraft fly and fight from means the IAF is instantly on the defensive. It's a flip up between the USN and the USAF as to who can beat the IAF down first.

Personally, I believe #2 is a not-likely scenario, and I'd like it to stay that way. If I had my way, we'd be in Iran right now, and we could use all the allies we can get in the immediate are.

 

[srev2004]

Not only that, but the F-16 is hardly the best air-superiority aircraft in the world.

The F-15 is.

Some part of me wonders if some USAF brass is using this as reason for Raptors, or at least more. Fat cats in the Pentagon are sneaky enough to sacrifice the pride and honor of the poor *******s fighting for them so they can look good when they write their memoirs.

That being said, there is nothing to say the skill and quality of the IAF is less than the USAF. However, the USAF has some distinct advantages.

1) USAF, and for that matter, USN and USMC pilots have been flying Operation Northern & Southern Watch missions for a decade before Operation Iraqi Freedom started. That, my friends, is a lot of combat experience, even if it is against sneaky Iraq SAMs. We can also include actions in Yugoslavia.

2) If something unpredictable and traumatic were to happen, and we went to war with each other, the US Navy would eat the IAF alive. That's right, the Navy. Not only that, but staging grounds in Qatar, Iraq, Afghanistan, and other places where USAF aircraft fly and fight from means the IAF is instantly on the defensive. It's a flip up between the USN and the USAF as to who can beat the IAF down first.

Personally, I believe #2 is a not-likely scenario, and I'd like it to stay that way. If I had my way, we'd be in Iran right now, and we could use all the allies we can get in the immediate are.

You do realize India has well over 700 fighter jets and 3000 helicopters? And if the US navy went to war, USA would cease to be the most powerful nation in the world. India also has it's own blue water navy and nuclear submarines. The brahmos missile is the fastest supersonic missile. I agree the USA would win, but with a really really really bloody nose.

India is no Iran, Iraq. It would be better to compare us with the likes of China or USA itself.

 

[LogicChristian]

You do realize India has well over 700 fighter jets and 3000 helicopters? And if the US navy went to war, USA would cease to be the most powerful nation in the world. India also has it's own blue water navy and nuclear submarines. The brahmos missile is the fastest supersonic missile. I agree the USA would win, but with a really really really bloody nose.

India is no Iran, Iraq. It would be better to compare us with the likes of China or USA itself.

Do you realize that the US has over 2000 fighter jets with many more in storage that could be called into action in an emergency? Do you also realize that over 200 of India's 700 planes are MiG-21s, and another 130 are MiG-27s? That pegs about half of India's combat aircraft as obsolete.

India isn't really comparable to the USA because while its military possesses a good amount of modern hardware, it's still in a transitional phase to becoming a modern military. Also, India doesn't yet have a nuclear submarine in service. The used to have a Charlie or two, and are trying to lease a couple of Akulas, but it hasn't happened yet. And while the US has 24 carriers and amphibious assault ships, India has one carrier about 1/4 the size of a Nimitz class vessel and has no plans to obtain a carrier larger than half the size of a Nimitz.

 

[srev2004]

Do you realize that the US has over 2000 fighter jets with many more in storage that could be called into action in an emergency? Do you also realize that over 200 of India's 700 planes are MiG-21s, and another 130 are MiG-27s? That pegs about half of India's combat aircraft as obsolete.

India isn't really comparable to the USA because while its military possesses a good amount of modern hardware, it's still in a transitional phase to becoming a modern military. Also, India doesn't yet have a nuclear submarine in service. The used to have a Charlie or two, and are trying to lease a couple of Akulas, but it hasn't happened yet. And while the US has 24 carriers and amphibious assault ships, India has one carrier about 1/4 the size of a Nimitz class vessel and has no plans to obtain a carrier larger than half the size of a Nimitz.

I didn't say India would win. But USA would cease to be a superpower if it fought with India.

 

[LogicChristian]

I didn't say India would win. But USA would cease to be a superpower if it fought with India.

That's simply not true. Considering the US has 2,000 modern combat aircraft, the next place, Russia, has maybe 1,000, and India has about 350-400. Also, the US has twice as many carriers as the rest of the world put together. So if you merely want to make the US Navy equivalent in that respect to the rest of the world put together (we'd still be a superpower though) you'd have to knock out 12 carriers. India quite simply does not have that capability. The US also has about 3 times as many submarines and about 3 or 4 times as many surface combatants.

 

[srev2004]

That's simply not true. Considering the US has 2,000 modern combat aircraft, the next place, Russia, has maybe 1,000, and India has about 350-400. Also, the US has twice as many carriers as the rest of the world put together. So if you merely want to make the US Navy equivalent in that respect to the rest of the world put together (we'd still be a superpower though) you'd have to knock out 12 carriers. India quite simply does not have that capability. The US also has about 3 times as many submarines and about 3 or 4 times as many surface combatants.

I can assure you that's not the case. The US Navy is spread out and in no way if it attacked India, it would be able to hold it's own in the Indian ocean. The US navy currently is heavily designed to contain China. But the strongest Navy in asia right now is India because of Brahmos. A volley of Brahmos attacks will severely cripple any Navy.

 

[srev2004]

New Delhi, 18 April 2005​

India’s Defence Procurements

(Updated up to 15 April 2005) ​

The list below was compiled from various media reports and press releases and contains the main items being procured, on offer or planned by the Indian Defence Forces, with our comments wherever possible.
Although every care has been taken to compile the data as accurately as possible, we take no responsibility for the authenticity of the list.
Note: The list includes Navy and Air Force items only. Updated Army list will follow.
1.
Scorpene Class (hunter-killer) Submarines (UPDATED)
To be built by Mazagon Dock (MDL), Mumbai. The contract is being concluded with the French Government and Thales and subcontracted to DCN, which has signed a transfer of technology agreement with MDL. Awaiting approval from Cabinet Committee on Security.
As of now six submarines are to join the Indian Navy while option for more remains open. Air-Independent Propulsion MESMA is an option only.
Media reports suggest that Russian Amur Class and German HDW submarines may also be considered. The court case against HDW was closed last week and they are reported to be making a strong comeback bid offering higher grade boats than the French.
2.
Air Defence Ship (Aircraft Carrier) (UPDATED)
The 37,500-tons aircraft carrier (Air Defence Ship) is to be built at Cochin Shipyard. The carrier is being designed to operate a mix of twelve MiG-29K, eight Naval-LCA Tejas or Sea Harrier fighters, ten ALH Dhruv and Kamov-31 helicopters.
The steel cutting of ADS was scheduled to begin on April 11, 2005. The ship after construction and trials is scheduled for delivery to the Indian Navy in 2012 and will cost the exchequer Rs. 3261 crores. The name Air Defence Ship is a misnomer deliberately adopted to bypass undue criticism from conflicting quarters. Under similar circum- stances even the Soviet and British navies maintained ambiguity. While the Russians projected their Kiev Class initially as anti-submarine cruisers (Protivolodochny Kreyser) the Royal Navy projected their Invincible Class as (through deck) cruisers.
3.
Aircraft Carrier INS Vikramaditya (Admiral Gorshkov) (UPDATED)
Will be refitted in Russia with provision for helicopters and MiG-29K aircraft at an additional cost of around $675 to $700 million. The deal to acquire the aircraft carrier, was signed between Russian Defence Minister Sergei Ivanov and then his Indian counterpart, Defence Minister George Fernandes on 20 January 2004 in New Delhi. The deal in addition also consists of separate contracts for new shipboard weapons and technology. The conversion is reported to be progressing at a swift pace well ahead of the schedule. The Russians have promised to hand over the Capital warship to the Indian Navy in late 2007.
4.
MiG-29K Carrier-borne Fighters (UPDATED)
Twelve single-seat MiG-29K and four dual-seat MiG-29KUB variants were ordered for operation from the decks of Admiral Gorshkov. Projected to be equipped with Phazatron Zhuk-MEh multi-mode radar. However Bars-29 Barsik (Little Bars) appears to be the likely candidate. Armed with Vympel RVV-AE (AA-12 Adder) medium range, active-radar homing air-to-air missiles; the R-73E (AA-11 Archer) infra-red guided dogfight missiles, Zvesda/Strella Kh-31A anti-ship and Kh-31P anti-radar missiles and Kh-35 Uran E anti-ship missiles. Also a strong candidate for the air defence ship (ADS) to be built at Cochin.
5.
Shivalik Class Guided Missile Frigates (NEW ENTRY)
Three Type 17, 4900-ton Shivalik class stealth frigates (two already launched) which is an upgraded hybrid home design of the Brahmaputra and Krivak class with BrahMos vertical launch missiles and two ASW helicopters.
6.
Bangalore Class Guided Missile Destroyers (NEW ENTRY)
Three Type 15A, 6700-ton Bangalore class Destroyers which is an improved version of the Delhi class also with vertical launch BrahMos missiles, aft of the bridge superstructure. DRDO and Larsen & Tubro Ltd had jointly designed the vertical missile launch system.
7.
Krivak III Class, Project 1135.6 Guided Missile Frigates (UPDATED)
Three warships, INS Talwar, INS Trishul and INS Tabar have joined the Indian Navy. The General Purpose warships however sport robust anti-air warfare sensors & weaponry with Shtil area defence SAM system and Kamov-31 AEW helicopters. Have lower Radar Cross Section (RCS). The Russians are eagerly anticipating a repeat order of three more.
8.
Indian Navy Sea Harrier Fleet Upgrade (NEW ENTRY)
The Navy Sea Harrier fleet is to acquire Beyond Visual Range (BVR) engagement capability in conjunction of Israeli EL/M 2032 radar and Derby BVR missiles, formidable even in close range.
9.
Sukhoi-30MKI Fighter Aircraft (UPDATED)
A total of 40 aircraft ordered from IAPO (Russia) and subsequent manufacture of 140 more by HAL in India. 18 Sukhoi-30MK/K variants initially supplied will go back to Russia for upgrading. Deliveries of the 40 Sukhoi-30MKI variants have been completed. Three operational Squadrons, No.20 Lightnings, No.24 Hunting Hawks and No.30 Rhinos are operating the type. First two HAL built versions were handed over to the Indian Air Force on March 21, 2005. HAL initially promised 10 Sukhoi-30 deliveries to the IAF per year. The figure subsequently rose to 14, sharply fell to 6 and now somewhat stabilized at 8.
10.
Kamov-31 Airborne Early Warning (AEW) Helicopters (UPDATED)
Four plus five Kamov-31 (Kamov-29RLD) AEW helicopters, estimated at US $207 million were ordered and joined the Indian Navy fleet. The Kamov-31 is fitted with the E-801M Oko (Eye) AEW radar. Also ordered were six Kamov-28 ASW helicopters worth $18 million.
11.
Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT) (UPDATED)
The IAF had long pressed for procurement of an initial 66 AJTs and later 11 AJTs for the Indian Navy. British Aerospace clinched the deal for the Hawk-115. The Hawk is projected to arrive in India from 2007 onwards.
Meanwhile the IAF pilots were undergoing advanced jet training on Royal Air Force Hawk variants in Britain. The aged MiG-21FL variants used as improvised AJT platforms can now retire.
12.
Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas (UPDATED)
IAF is all set to order from HAL 20 + 20 LCA Tejas with US GE-404 engines worth almost $1billion, to be delivered beginning 2008. Weapons integration flights are eagerly awaited while the problems relating to the indigenous Kaveri GTX-35VS two-spool low-bypass ratio turbofan engine need to be sorted out fast.
13.
MiG-21 Replacement (NEW ENTRY)
The IAF was set to acquire 126 fighters from 2008 onwards to replace the MiG-21s worth $3b and the competition is between the French Mirage 2000-5Mk2, Swedish Grippen, US F 16C Block 70 and the Russian MiG-29 M2. Request For Information (RFI) has been sent to the respective manufacturers. Mirage 2000-5Mk2 appears to be the IAF's preferred choice. Additionally India is keen to buy 12 Mirage 2000-5 from Qatar. Recently USA had offered the F/A-18E/F and some assembly lines. If financial terms are good India may consider it for the technology that comes with these aircraft. It will help the LCA too.
14.
HAL HJT-36 Intermediate Jet Trainer (IJT) (UPDATED)
Hindustan Aeronautics Limited IJT-36 carried out its first flight on March 7, 2003 with Chief Test Pilot Squadron Leader Baldev Singh (Retd) on controls. The 20 minutes flight was reported to be flawless. Significantly the IJT prototype flew in less than four years after commencing development work, thanks to advanced Computer Aided Design (CAD) techniques. A single French Larzac 04-20 engine presently powers the IJT-36. A higher thrust version of Larzac engine for the production version of the IJT-36 is on cards.

http://www.indiadefence.com/defproc1.HTM
​

 

[srev2004]

IAF Aircraft Fleet Upgrades (NEW ENTRY)
Jaguar
To extend the operational life of Jaguars further improvement of avionics suite is now in progress under project DARIN II. Among others this involves a Sagem Ring-Laser-Gyro INS with integrated Global Positioning System (GPS) and indigenously developed twin mission computers. DARIN II upgrade is incorporated on the 17 twin-seat Jaguars being produced by HAL. In time DARIN II will first replace the NAVWASS on all direct supply strike Jaguars. Later DARIN II upgrade including the autopilot currently under development may be implemented on at least sixty remaining aircraft in service. In addition the Jaguars will acquire formidable night-attack capability in conjunction of Forward-Looking Infra-Red (FLIR) and Precision Guided Munitions (PGM). Twenty more Jaguars are to be manufactured at HAL with the evolving technology.
MiG-27
At least two squadrons of MiG-27ML are undergoing upgrade with Advanced Pilot/System Interface (APSI), PGM capability and in-flight refueling probe among others.
MiG-21
Four squadrons of MiG-21Bison are operational with eight more to join as per latest reports. Being equipped with Kopyo (Spear)/Super Kopyo X-band pulse Doppler radars and RVV-AE (AA-12 Adder) beyond visual range missiles and PGMs.
Mil-35 Helicopters(UPDATED)
A major upgrade is underway of twenty-five IAF Mil-35 attack helicopters by IAI/Tamam by utilising Helicopter Multi-mission Optronic Stabilized Payload (HMOSP) providing precise navigation and all-weather operations in conjunction of AT-6 Spiral and proposed Rafael Spike antitank missiles. Appropriate countermeasures suites are integrated.
16.
Illyushin-78MKI In-flight Refueling Tanker (UPDATED)
Six Illyushin-78MKI in-flight refuelling tankers have joined the Indian Air Force fleet equipping Squadron No.78 'Battle Cry' have been carrying out in-flight refuelling practices with IAF Sukhoi-30, Mirage 2000 and Jaguars often supporting them on long-range missions and in trans-continental ferry to join multi-national air exercises at various parts of the Globe.
17.
Mirage 2000 V Aircraft (NEW ENTRY)
India is keen to buy 12 Mirage 2000-5 from Qatar.
18.
Mirage 2000H/TH (UPDATED)
Ten additional aircraft to replace accident losses and as part of the War Wastage Reserve had arrived by early 2005. These have more powerful radar capable of enhanced simultaneous track and engagement with beyond visual range missiles.
19.
EL/M-2090 Green Pine Radar (NEW ENTRY)
India have received two Green Pine L-band, phased array, dual-mode detection and fire control radar comprising of 2,000 transmit-receive modules. Green Pine is said to be capable of tracking ballistic missiles from a range of up to 500-km. Integration of Arrow 2 Anti-Tactical Ballistic Missile (ATBM) system in Indian armed forces service depends upon several complex factors including the requisite United States administration permission to the Israeli authorities.
In addition another active phased-array radar system, called Sword Fish, was purchased from Israel in early 2004 for $50 million and is undergoing trials at Hasan in Karnataka state.
Meanwhile during the second-half of February 2005, a four-member high-level US defence team led by Edward Ross of the Defence Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA), had met officials of the international security division of the Indian External Affairs and Defence ministries and presented "a technical brief" of the Patriot PAC-2. The US administration's clearance for a classified technical presentation of PAC-2 system came as part of the Next Step in Strategic Partnership (NSSP) agreement initiated by the two countries during 2004.
20.
Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (UAV) (UPDATED)
Several branches of Indian Armed Forces continue to receive IAI Malat built Searcher Mk II and Heron UAVs and their ground control units from Israel. The Searcher MkII has a height ceiling of nearly 30,000-ft. Army, Navy and IAF units are being provided with these UAVs progressively and projected to bolster one of the largest UAV fleets of the world. Navy will get Heron with Maritime radar. The Indian Army has also ordered twelve indigenous Nishant UAV in a limited-series production.
India and Israel have also entered into a new partnership under which Tel Aviv will help New Delhi in its development of UAVs. A formal deal was signed at the Aero India 2005 exposition Feb. 9-13, between senior officials of the respective defense ministries.
Israel Aircraft Industries will assist state-owned Aeronautical Development Establishment (ADE), India's leading unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV) laboratory, to develop three new UAVs. They are the Rustam Medium-Altitude Long-Endurance (MALE) UAV, the Pawan short-range UAV and the Gagan tactical UAV.
21.
Two Type 877-EKM Kilo-class SSK Submarines, plus one Amur-Class SSK have been offered as India’s own Submarine building programme has been slow since the HDW scandal. (Old entry)
22.
Novator 3M54E Klub Anti-Ship Cruise Missiles (ASCM) (UPDATED)
Klub equips Kilo Class hunter-killer submarine (SSK) INS Sindhushastra from outset. The missile is also being progressively fitted to five other Kilo Class SSKs those are undergoing or have undergone refits. The ASCM also equips the three Krivak III s, and projected for the Type 17 Shivalik Class guided missile frigates. The Indian Navy is truly excited about this missile and calls it the Russian Tomahawk. Up to 200 systems have been ordered.
23.
Barak Anti-Missile SAM systems (UPDATED)
Built by IAI ELTA/RAFAEL, the rapid-reaction Israeli SAM system is installed on the Indian Navy's carrier INS Viraat, and Delhi Class guided missile destroyers. The system is also to equip Godavari & Brahmaputra Class frigates. Already installed on INS Ganga. Initially seven systems were procured with more to follow in response to failure of indigenous Trishul SAM.
24.
AEROSTATS (NEW ENTRY)
The first lot of Israeli Helium filled Airborne Early Warning Aerostats had arrived in India. The Aerostat radars, which basically include sensors mounted on blimp-like large balloons tethered to the ground with long cables, are a long-standing requirement of the IAF.
25.
Four plus three Ka-31, air borne early warning helicopters, and six Ka-28 ASW helicopters worth $18 million all of which will be delivered progressively. (Old entry)
26.
TU-142 Bear F maritime patrol/ASW aircraft armed with Alfa and Uran-E anti-ship cruise missiles to supplement the eight currently in service with the Indian Navy are on offer. (Old entry)
27.
Tupolev-22M3 Backfire-C (UPDATED)
Tupolev-22M3 ‘Backfire-C’ strategic bombers and high-speed maritime reconnaissance platforms, produced at the Gorbunov-based plant in Kazan, southern Russia are on offer and ready to be delivered from Russia’s large excess stock.
28.
Synthetic Aperture Radars & Laser Guided Bombs (UPDATED)
The ELTA subsidiary of Israel Aircraft Industries is likely to supply pod-mounted EL/M-2060 synthetic aperture radars for IAF Mirage 2000H/TH fighters. The IAF is also expected to procure additional laser-guidance kits for its 1,000 lb bombs from Elbit Computers of Israel.

 

[LogicChristian]

I can assure you that's not the case. The US Navy is spread out and in no way if it attacked India, it would be able to hold it's own in the Indian ocean. The US navy currently is heavily designed to contain China. But the strongest Navy in asia right now is India because of Brahmos. A volley of Brahmos attacks will severely cripple any Navy.

LOL, the funniest thing about this arugment is that it is exactly what I used to hear from Chinese about the Hangzhou and Luhai class destroyer as well as the Sunburn ASCM. The Brahmos doesn't do you a lot of good when the B-2s out of Diego Garcia have wiped out your airfields, or B-52s equipped with ACMs.

The US Navy is spread out, but could easily commit up to four carriers and amphibious assault vessels. That's plenty more than India can deal with. And if the US Navy is so spread out, than how could India destroy its place as a superpower all by itself?

Also, the US Navy isn't designed to contain China specifically. Even if it was, it'd still be pretty well suited to deal with India, as India's only real naval advantage on China is its carrier. Anyway, the USN was actually designed to deal with the Soviet Navy, which is a heck of a lot more capable than the Indian Navy.

One new anti ship cruise missile system won't make the difference between India winning or losing a war with the US, especially when you consider the fact that the US could cripple India's military without sending a single ship near India.

On a side note, a few avionics improvements for MiG-21s and 27s do not make them modern fighter aircraft. Ditto goes for the Jaguar although I didn't bring that up earlier. How survivable to you think those Jags would actually be in a fight with the USA? They're just another example of the fact that India is looking to compete with Pakistan and China more than the US.

 

[srev2004]

LOL, the funniest thing about this arugment is that it is exactly what I used to hear from Chinese about the Hangzhou and Luhai class destroyer as well as the Sunburn ASCM. The Brahmos doesn't do you a lot of good when the B-2s out of Diego Garcia have wiped out your airfields, or B-52s equipped with ACMs.

The US Navy is spread out, but could easily commit up to four carriers and amphibious assault vessels. That's plenty more than India can deal with. And if the US Navy is so spread out, than how could India destroy its place as a superpower all by itself?

Also, the US Navy isn't designed to contain China specifically. Even if it was, it'd still be pretty well suited to deal with India, as India's only real naval advantage on China is its carrier. Anyway, the USN was actually designed to deal with the Soviet Navy, which is a heck of a lot more capable than the Indian Navy.

One new anti ship cruise missile system won't make the difference between India winning or losing a war with the US, especially when you consider the fact that the US could cripple India's military without sending a single ship near India.

On a side note, a few avionics improvements for MiG-21s and 27s do not make them modern fighter aircraft. Ditto goes for the Jaguar although I didn't bring that up earlier. How survivable to you think those Jags would actually be in a fight with the USA? They're just another example of the fact that India is looking to compete with Pakistan and China more than the US.

India will never invade enemy waters. It will defend it's home turf, and it would most of the US navy to take out India's. Do you think India has no air defense? We have the most advanced missile defense system in the making, we even refused the American offers for Phalcon, Patriot 3 defense system.

India has green pine radars, which will detect anything 500km's away. We will be mass producing these in 5 years. Like I said the USA would win, but it wouldn't be able to be as strong as it was today. 4 Carriers cannot take out 50 Indian navy boats and 3 carriers.

There is a reason the Indian Ocean is called the Indian ocean.

 

[LogicChristian]

India will never invade enemy waters. It will defend it's home turf, and it would most of the US navy to take out India's. Do you think India has no air defense? We have the most advanced missile defense system in the making, we even refused the American offers for Phalcon, Patriot 3 defense system

I think India has an air defense, but I don't think it can deal with a simultaneous attack from B-52s armed with stealth cruise missiles, B-2 bombers, and Ohio class submarines refitted with TLAMs. And if we're factoring in systems that haven't entered service yet (which you seem to be doing) then the US gets another trump card with Prompt Global Strike. India doesn't have a way of defeating conventional warheads loaded on ICBMs or SLBMs.

India has green pine radars, which will detect anything 500km's away. We will be mass producing these in 5 years. Like I said the USA would win, but it wouldn't be able to be as strong as it was today. 4 Carriers cannot take out 50 Indian navy boats and 3 carriers.

India doesn't have 3 carriers, they have one. And interestingly, if you add up the total tonnage of the 3 carriers they hope to have in the 2010-2015 time frame (none of which are actually being built in India mind you,) they add up to about 1 Nimitz class carrier.

4 carriers alone couldn't do it. But the dozens of aegis destroyers and cruisers, frigates and SSNs that would form the battle group, along with support from the USAF, could get the job done easily.

The US Navy has over 300 ships, it would only take 1/6 of the US Navy to match India in terms of numbers. And on average, the US Navy is far more advanced techically. India doesn't have a single CTOL carrier, and only plans to acquire two small ones. And while India is trying to acquire SSNs, they can't get their hands on anything as advanced as Seawolf, Jimmy Carter, or the Virginia.

Also, the US shipbuilding industry is still churning out 97,000 ton carriers. The largest ship India has produced to my knowledge is the Delhi class destroyer, weighing in at 6200 tons.

There is a reason the Indian Ocean is called the Indian ocean.

Yeah, and it isn't the Indian Navy.

 

[srev2004]

I think India has an air defense, but I don't think it can deal with a simultaneous attack from B-52s armed with stealth cruise missiles, B-2 bombers, and Ohio class submarines refitted with TLAMs. And if we're factoring in systems that haven't entered service yet (which you seem to be doing) then the US gets another trump card with Prompt Global Strike. India doesn't have a way of defeating conventional warheads loaded on ICBMs or SLBMs.


India doesn't have 3 carriers, they have one. And interestingly, if you add up the total tonnage of the 3 carriers they hope to have in the 2010-2015 time frame (none of which are actually being built in India mind you,) they add up to about 1 Nimitz class carrier.

4 carriers alone couldn't do it. But the dozens of aegis destroyers and cruisers, frigates and SSNs that would form the battle group, along with support from the USAF, could get the job done easily.

The US Navy has over 300 ships, it would only take 1/6 of the US Navy to match India in terms of numbers. And on average, the US Navy is far more advanced techically. India doesn't have a single CTOL carrier, and only plans to acquire two small ones. And while India is trying to acquire SSNs, they can't get their hands on anything as advanced as Seawolf, Jimmy Carter, or the Virginia.

Also, the US shipbuilding industry is still churning out 97,000 ton carriers. The largest ship India has produced to my knowledge is the Delhi class destroyer, weighing in at 6200 tons.


Yeah, and it isn't the Indian Navy.

India started the construction of a 37,500 tonne, 252 metre-long aircraft carrier in April 2005. The new carrier, with an estimated cost of US$762 million, will operate 30 aircraft, including Naval LCA, MiG-29K, and Sea Harrier combat aircraft, as well as HAL Dhruv, Ka-31, and Sea King Mk.42 helicopters. The ship will be powered by four turbine engines and will have a range of 7,500 nautical miles, with a crew of 160 officers and 1400 men. The carrier is being constructed by state-run Cochin Shipyard Limited.[4]
In 2004, India bought the Russian aircraft carrier, Admiral Gorshkov for free. It will cost US$800 million to refit, and expected to join Indian Navy in 2008, while US$700 million will be spend to purchase 12 single-seat Mig-29K and 4 dual-seat Mig-29KUB, as well as facilities and procedures for training of pilots and technical staff, delivery of simulators, spare parts, and establishment maintenance on Indian Navy facilities. Also, 6 Kamov-31 attack and reconnaissance anti-submarine helicopters. Upgrades include removing missiles from the carrier foredeck to make way for a 14.3-degrees ski-jump.[5]
The Indian Navy is going through an intense phase of expansion, modernisation and upgrading. Currently, India is constructing 3 Shivalik class frigate, 3 Bangalore class destroyer, 4 Trinkat Class Fast Patrol Vessels, 2 Super Dvora Mk.II Class Fast Patrol Vessels, 1 Magar Class Amphibious Warfare Vessel, 3 Large LST Amphibious Warfare Vessels and 6 Scorpène class submarine. Yantar, plant in Kaliningrad was awarded a contract to build 3 additional 1135.6 frigates costing India US$1.56 billion. The price increase is due to more sophisticated armaments such as, BrahMos Cruise Missile. According to a report published by the US Congress, Indian Navy would be among the top 3 navies in the world by 2009. In 2004, the Ministry of Defence spent 5.7 billion US$ in arms purchases making India the developing world's leading military buyer. A major chunk of those purchases were made for the Indian Navy. India, is currently focusing on expanding its submarine fleet. It bought six Scorpene submarines from France in 2005 for 2.5 billion euros. According to some very reliable defense sources India is paying 2 billion dollars for the completion of 2 Akula class submarines which are 40 to 60% completed; 300 Indian navy personnel being trained in Russia for the operation of these submarines. India has finalised a deal with Russia, in which at the end of the lease of these submarines, it has an option to buy them.

India dominant naval power: France
October 21, 2005 18:44 IST


France considers India as a dominant naval power in the Indian Ocean region, a senior French Navy official said in Mumbai.

The visit of the French Navy supply and command ship in the Indian Ocean region 'Marne' to Mumbai harbour is a part of the on-going close Indo-French naval co-operation, the official told PTI on board Marne.

The bilateral co-operation between India and France was initiated a decade ago and since then, French naval ships have been regularly visiting India and also participating in the joint-naval exercise 'Varuna', he said.

A joint-naval exercise between the two navies is scheduled for 2006, the official said. He, however, declined to divulge details. Asked if the aircraft carriers of the two nations would be participating in that exercise, he said "most likely".

"France feels that the Indian Ocean zone plays a key role in international affairs," the official said. "It is situated at the junction of the main commercial and strategic maritime routes. It is an important zone for international exchanges, which has witnessed many political and military crises in the past 10 years," he added.

"It is in this framework that supply and command ship Marne, which is also the flagship of the Admiral has been deployed in the Indian Ocean area," he said.

The 158-mt long Marne is an oil tanker of the French Navy, which supports the French fleet in the Indian Ocean. It is the flagship of the Admiral commanding the French Naval forces in the Indian Ocean (Alindien) who is himself the direct representative of the chief of French Defense staff, he said.

rediff

Indian navy in 2020
10 Scorpene class submarines(more or less)
5 U214 submarines(more or less)
5 ATVs
10 Kilo class subs
4 Shishumar class subs